Poll - Once Saved Always Saved

[Ormly]

[

quote=Dispy;45158139]

WHEN DID JESUS OR HIS DISCIPLES EVER PREACH "THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD" that Paul preached??????????? So how could they reject it??????? PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



What did Jesus preach??? Answer: Matthew 4:17 "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Indeed, and it was by His life that He demonstrated kingdom living and kingdom government. . The "way of the cross".

What did Jesus command His disciples to preach? Answer: Matthew 10:5 "These twelve dJesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go reather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Did Paul ever preach "the kingdom of heaven at hand?" NO!!!

No. He preached that the kingdom of God WAS at hand and is now something to be realized by the indwelling of the Holy Sprit.

What did Paul preach? Answer: Romans 16:25 "Now to him that is of power to stablish lyou according to my gospel, and the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,"

Which is the theology of the cross that you confirm to be with the scripture you submit below.

2 Cor. 12:1 "...I will come to visions and revelation of the Lord."

Gal. 1:11 "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached to me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."

Ephesians 3:2 "If ye have hard of the dispensastion of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made know unto me the mystery;(as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit."

 

[yashualover]

Yes, everything you have said is quite clear. It is clear that you do not like to answer question, and that you do not "rightly divide the Word of truth. You have consistentaly demonstrated that, and supported it by scripture taken out of its context.

After going back over several posting between you and I, I have come to the conclusion that you do not like to answer questions. You will only respond to "selected" portions of a paragraph that I have written, and then it is just a brief comment, and usually out of context.

IMHO, you are not "rightly dividing the Word of truty" by mixing prophecy/gospel of the kingdom to Israel (Law); with the mystery/gospel of the Grace of God to the Church, the Body of Christ (Grace).

By doing that, you are claiming to be a spiritual Jew, and claiming its promises.

It is my contention that when one mixes the doctrine of the Law (to Israel), and the doctrine of Grace (to the Body of Christ), that is proclaiming "a scrambled egg doctrine."

Also, it is my contention that when one embraces a scrambled egg doctrine, it only leads to confusion, and denominations.

Let me explain what I call "a scrambled egg doctrine. The egg, like the Bible, is one unit. In the egg, you will find two components; i.e. the yoke (yellow), and clear liquid (white). The Bible is also one unit. It contains two primary doctrines, The doctrine of Law (instruction in righteousness to the children of Israel), and the doctrine of Grace (instruction in righteousness to member of the Church, the Body of Christ.)

An egg can be cooked where each component maintains its identity. Or, it can be scrambled and mixed with other elements.

The Bible can be studied and each doctrine (Law & Grace) can be studied in their proper context. Or, as denominationalist do, They mix the mix the two doctrines, according to their own receipe, and each serve up their scrambled egg doctrine (omlet) to their liking.

You will notice that I have responded to everything you have written. You, on the other hand, HAVE NOT. You do not even have the courtesy to answer most of my question. Therefore, unless you respond to everything I have written, and answer my questions, I feel I am wasting my time with you. IMHO, I feell it is a "one way" dialogue.

Ben has clearily with patience answered all your questions and his answers are sound and scripturally based.

You need to pray and ask YHVH to have mercy on you and open your eyes.

 

[beloved57]

Ben has clearily with patience answered all your questions

This may be true.

and his answers are sound and scripturally based.

Now thats a matter of opinion lol

 

[SeekingTheTruth0819]

That might be true, if not for James5;19-20.

And 2Pet2:20-22.

And 2Jn1:7-9.

And 1Tim6:10, & 25.

And many others.
True; as long as they remain "His sheep".
Verse 10:9, states that "anyone who enters Jesus shall be saved, shall go in and out and find pasture" --- clearly this means "shall BECOME His sheep".

"Pluck", as we have oft discussed, is "harpazo" --- sieze/remove forcibly. Plenty of verses assert that "we can come to disbelief, and be cast out". Indeed --- in John15, if anyone does NOT abide in Christ, he is cast off as a branch ...and burned.

Speaking of "abiding" --- how do you read 1Jn2:26-28? Will you assert that "shrink-in-shame" is either not possible, or "still saved"?

The concept of being cut off for unbelief, is well established in Scripture; and while Rom11:29 promises us that "God will never repent/revoke our calling or gifts", clearly WE can repent of HIM.

"Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. Behold then the kindness and severity of God. To those who FELL, severity; to you, kindness --- if you CONTINUE in His kindness otherwise YOU ALSO will be cut off. And if they do not continue in unbelief, they will be grafted in again..." Rom11:21-23

There it is, clearly stated, in absolute terms.

How can we deny it???

That looks completely unambiguous! Thank you.

 

[Ormly]

WHEN DID JESUS OR HIS DISCIPLES EVER PREACH "THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD" that Paul preached??????????? So how could they reject it??????? PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



What did Jesus preach??? Answer: Matthew 4:17 "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

What did Jesus command His disciples to preach? Answer: Matthew 10:5 "These twelve dJesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go reather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Did Paul ever preach "the kingdom of heaven at hand?" NO!!!

What did Paul preach? Answer: Romans 16:25 "Now to him that is of power to stablish lyou according to my gospel, and the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,"

2 Cor. 12:1 "...I will come to visions and revelation of the Lord."

Gal. 1:11 "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached to me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."

Ephesians 3:2 "If ye have hard of the dispensastion of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made know unto me the mystery;(as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit."

When did Jesus and the 12 preach what Paul preached. Chapter and verse PLEASE.

Unless I miss my guess, you are agreeing with me.

 

[yashualover]

What does it matter if the disciples spoke about differing subjects, it's still all the Holy Spirit. I don't know what you are trying to convey.

 

[yashualover]

Rom 5:15 But God's free gift is not like Adam's offense. For if many people died as the result of one man's offense, how much more have God's grace and the free gift given through the kindness of one man, Jesus Christ, been showered on many people!
Rom 5:16 Nor can the free gift be compared to what came through the man who sinned. For the sentence that followed one man's offense brought condemnation, but the free gift brought justification, even after many offenses.
Rom 5:17 For if, through one man, death ruled because of that man's offense, how much more will those who receive such overflowing grace and the gift of righteousness rule in life because of one man, Jesus Christ.

Eph 2:8 For by such grace you have been saved through faith. This does not come from you; it is the gift of God
Eph 2:9 and not the result of works, lest anyone boast.

 

[MamaZ]

Rom 5:15 But God's free gift is not like Adam's offense. For if many people died as the result of one man's offense, how much more have God's grace and the free gift given through the kindness of one man, Jesus Christ, been showered on many people!
Rom 5:16 Nor can the free gift be compared to what came through the man who sinned. For the sentence that followed one man's offense brought condemnation, but the free gift brought justification, even after many offenses.
Rom 5:17 For if, through one man, death ruled because of that man's offense, how much more will those who receive such overflowing grace and the gift of righteousness rule in life because of one man, Jesus Christ.

Eph 2:8 For by such grace you have been saved through faith. This does not come from you; it is the gift of God
Eph 2:9 and not the result of works, lest anyone boast.

 

[justsurfing]

Jesus saves.

It's not by works of righteousness that we have done, but according to His Love He saved us.

God's Love. It doesn't give up and never fails. That's our blessed assurance. We're not held by us loving and choosing God. We're held by God loving and choosing us and never taking His Love from us... even if we "deserve" to have His Love taken from us. It's true because we never deserved HIs Love in the first place.

Grace is unmerited favor. You keep trying to make unmerited favor have strings attacked.

No strings attached. Unmerited favor. Unconditional Love... experienced in relationship by Grace by God's own choosing.

Try to "catch a vision" of what salvation with no strings attached is like... with God promising by His Love to walk with us through all the steps of conforming us to the image of His Son, changing us, leading us, guiding us, being our Shepherd. It's a personal relationship of God's Love in which we walk with Him and He is leading and guiding us. He doesn't see us as capable, mature, responsible adults who should be able to handle this task and do it ourselves. He sees us people who fundamentally rely on His Love as the power of our Christian faith and walk... and so He will never take His Love from us... and we shall always have Christian faith and walk in the power of HIs Love. No strings attached. Why? Because He took full responsibility for us and all the debt has already been paid on His side of the line of the responsibility in personal relationship. There's nothing left to be on my side of the line to earn, maintain, or keep my salvation. He's paid for... a full ride. It's like having... a living trust that Daddy set up that will never run dry. It provides for all my needs. I know... spoiled lil rich kid some want to accuse me of being. But they don't understand I was not able to make my own living... and needed Daddy to take care of me. But God... is rich... in mercy... and I have a living trust as His kid.

Grace and peace.

Scripture says "if we break ONE law, we are guilty of the WHOLE". The New Covenant is not about "keeping law"; no one here is asserting that, and I never have...
True that; and He was rebuking them for refusing to believe. Best rebuke probably John5:29-47.
What do you think Jesus meant when He said "you must be born again"? That's the "Gospel of the grace of God", defined.
They forsook Christ, but did not lose salvation.

Then why bother believing in Jesus and His sacrifice, if forsaking Him doesn't mean condemnation?
I see; by turning back to Law, they disregarded the CROSS. With respect, then why did Jesus bother?
I'm at a loss how to respond. We are saved by grace through faith; you perceive that one can be fallen from grace but still saved. How do I convince you that "saved-by-grace", cannot be "fallen-from-grace"?
And what does that mean, "Dispy"? It means rejecting the Cross. Wait --- that's exactly what you ARE proposing. A "middle-ground", that can exist "fallen-from-grace-but-SAVED".

Do you accept that "turning back to Law", they are (by definition) no longer trusting in Christ?
True that; but if one CEASES to believe, he/she ceases to have the Holy Spirit.

Look at 2Jn1:7-9; he who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ, has not God --- do you think that "has-not-God", does not also mean "has-not-the-Holy-Spirit"?
I think my position is well established...
What kind of "relationship" is it, if we DENY the Cross and RETURN to "Law"?

That's what "return to Law" means --- to forsake the Cross and Jesus' sacrifice.
"Unto", not "until"; the language is quite clear.
By definition, "grieving/insulting/quenching" means "WALKING IN SIN". Which, if a person is still indwelt by the Holy Spirit, makes Him PARTICIPATOR in sin.

Will He? Never, Dispy.
You're proposing a position of "No-good-fruit-BUT-SAVED". This denies Jesus' statement in John15:2, "every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit, is removed."
And if we do NOT walk in them, then we are not "in Christ". John15:2-6 says something more --- those who bear fruit, are in Christ; those who do NOT bear fruit, are removed --- "If anyone DOES NOT ABIDE, he is cast off as a dried branch ....and burned."
Correct; but Jesus' principle in Matt7:18 cannot be denied --- "no good tree produces bad fruit".
Tell me how I'm "not rightly dividing it". In this post especially, everything I've said is quite clear, and consistent; and supported by Scripture.

 

[Ben johnson]

"Believing" is not "merit".

Dictionary.com:
1. claim to respect and praise; excellence; worth.
2. something that deserves or justifies a reward or commendation; a commendable quality, act, etc.​

Believing is the opposite of "merit", it is to cast oneself helplessly at His feet, crying out for His forgiveness (recognizing that we are without any merit at all!). It is to praise Him and call Him excellent, worthy. Not ourselves.

A.T.Robertson said (about Eph2:8), "Grace is God's part, faith is ours".

Paul eloquently says it in 2Tim1:12-14, God guards what we entrust (by our faith), and we guard what God entrusts (eternal life!).

 

[A Brother In Christ]

John 1:13 how is one born ? By God

eph 2:8 not of ourselves... but a gift from God

once again "BEN" is quoting fallen man and twisting God's word

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by ABIC:
once again "BEN" is quoting fallen man and twisting God's word​

If "believing" is not of ourselves but a gift of God, that would be the "twisting".

In Jn1:13, the begottenness is all of God and nothing of men.

...but how do men become "begotten"?

"As many as RECEIVED Christ, to THEM He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who BELIEVE on His name." Jn1:12

Faith is how we come to God (Heb11:6); it's not how God comes to us.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

John 1:13 how is one born ? By God

eph 2:8 not of ourselves... but a gift from God

once again "BEN" is quoting fallen man and twisting God's word

Quoted by ABIC:
once again "BEN" is quoting fallen man and twisting God's word
​

If "believing" is not of ourselves but a gift of God, that would be the "twisting".

In Jn1:13, the begottenness is all of God and nothing of men.

...but how do men become "begotten"?

"As many as RECEIVED Christ, to THEM He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who BELIEVE on His name." Jn1:12

Faith is how we come to God (Heb11:6); it's not how God comes to us.

without the Father's having chosen us.... eph 1:4, John 6:65
Holy Spirit .... restaining Satan so that we can believe ... 2 cor 4:3-7
Holy Spirit ... conviencing work .... john 16:7-11
God the Son taking on are penalty ..... none of us would be able to savedt

this is oversimplfing it ... but enough verse to see and hear God's words ... john 10:27

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by ABIC:
without the Father's having chosen us.... eph 1:4, John 6:65 ​

Eph1:4 says "...chosen ...according to the kind intention of His will ...which He bestowed on us in the Beloved".

If 2Thess2:13 says "Chosen from the beginning ...through faith" --- and if "the kind intention of His will" is that all who see Jesus and believe (Jn6:40), then tell me where Predestined-Election is, in the Bible?

And if "we must make sure of our calling and ELECTION (against the guy who WAS saved/purified but now LACKS godly qualities) --- as long as these godly qualities are OURS the gates of Heaven will BE provided to us" --- where is the "Predestined-Election"?

John6:65 says "No one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father" --- show me where ANYONE has not been "granted to come".

Quote:
Holy Spirit .... restaining satan so that we can believe ... 2 cor 4:3-7
Holy Spirit ... conviencing work .... john 16:7-11​

With respect --- how many times must that be refuted before you'll stop using that passage?

2Cor4:3-7 says "The god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ".

2Cor3:16 says "WHEN a man TURNS to the Lord, the veil over his eyes is REMOVED".

Which comes first --- "un-veiling", or "turning to God"???

Quote:
God the Son taking on our penalty ..... none of us would be able to saved

this is oversimplifying it ... but enough verses to see and hear God's words ... john 10:27​

Jn10:27 says "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them; they follow Me; I give them eternal life and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch (force) them from the Father's hand."

John10:38 says "you can believe in Me just by looking at what I have DONE". How does that align with "your belief is predestined by God"?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Heb 1:14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minster for them who shall be heirs of salavation?

election...

 

[A Brother In Christ]

John 1:13 which were born[into family of God] , not of blood[parents were believer so I saved] , nor of the will of the flesh [Works of the flesh gal 5:19-21], nor the will of man[rational of man, spirit] , but of God.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

John6:65 says "No one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father" --- show me where ANYONE has not been "granted to come".

Matt 7:21-23
God never knew them ... now go to Hell

 

[Ben johnson]

John1:13 says the BEGOTTENNESS is all of God and nothing of men.

What does verse TWELVE say?

"As many as RECEIVED Christ, to THEM He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who BELIEVED on His name".

"Begotten", is of God.
"BECOMING begotten", is by believing and receiving Jesus.

Can you reject this?

 

[Ave Maria]

I'd like to change my vote. I do believe in once saved always saved.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by PaladinGirl:
I'd like to change my vote. I do believe in once saved always saved. ​

Which one?

1. Antinomianism --- salvation is a RELATIONSHIP, and need not be FELLOWSHIP with God; though the body is dead and walking in fornication, and/or drunkenness, and/or robbery/reviling/carousing, the SPIRIT is saved and will go to Heaven.

2. Calvinism --- God chooses a few, regenerates them and THEN they turn to Him and believe. Those whom God does not choose, never seek Him; their wills are bound to their natures.

3. Eternal security --- atonement is unlimited, ALL men are sincerely called to salvation. But once "in", either their hearts are too changed TO disbelieve, or God dynamically interferes in PREVENTING apostasy (sometimes even causing physical death that their souls be saved).

Which do you hold, "PaladinGirl"? And where in Scripture do you find it?