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No, I think it's "your turn". I asked you to comment on 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, and 1Jn3:5-10 --- how is it possible to be actively doing the things listed in these passages, but still expect to stroll through the gates of Heaven?ABIC said:ignoring me again ... ben
Yes there is one's that believe in vain ..
1cor 15:2,10,17
all three vain in english are different words in greek
but it all has to do with thought process... not actions
Hi, "Squint". Question --- do you agree that the Holy Spirit, and the Son, physically indwell the believer?Squint said:Ben I want to be very clear on this matter.
WE are NOT alone in our flesh. Scripturally speaking it is and remains ENTIRELY possible that BOTH conditions, that of the sinner and the SAINT are in the SAME LUMP.
The "one lump", in context, reflect the "saved". One lump is ON His "Potter's Wheel" --- conveying belief.God raises EITHER ONE as HE sees fit and DEALS with those TWO PARTIES who are NOT THE SAME in entirely OPPOSITE MANNERS. One unto ETERNAL LIFE and one unto ETERNAL DEATH.
I am not confused; we either walk in Jesus, or walk in sin --- the first reflects "belief", the second "unbelief". It's that black-n-white.When this understanding is applied to scripture, BECAUSE it is a FACT, then the entirety of The Word makes PERFECT sense. Apart from this understanding there will only be confusion as a result.
No unbeliever will be saved --- Scripture is clear on that.There is no getting around that presentation by "conceptualizing" ALL OF ISRAEL in any other manner when ENEMIES of the Gospel are SAVED.
In Rev20, people are thrown into the "Lake of Fire". You seem to be espousing a form of "Humanism".I agree with and have no problem with ETERNAL JUDGMENT. I do not agree that eternal damnation is going to fall on any person. I do agree that the devil and his messengers who are FOUND IN MANKIND will suffer that fate of eternal damnation.
What of Heb10:26? Do you think that somehow "fire that consumes the adveraries", isn't permanent?In addition, and staying with the topic matter of this thread, there is not ONE SINGLE EXAMPLE of any believer in the entire N.T. who is said to be going to suffer the fate of ETERNAL TORTURE/DAMNATION.
I gave you a list --- including verses like James5:19-20. I gave you four verses from Paul's letters to Timothy (five verses, I think) --- have you answered them?In short, that presentation DOES NOT EXIST in scripture as it pertains to "believers."
Our souls have been redeemed --- we will receive new bodies. Christ redeemed all from the Cross --- each person RECEIVES that redemption (while alive), or rejects it.All "redemption" is post death Ben. We do not have the "entirety" of redemption while we are in this present life. WE ALL have corruptible bodies and minds. That's just a fact. And Romans 11:26 says otherwise as far as Israel is concerned. But of course anyone is free to NOT believe that in order to sustain their doctrinal positions.
Many times action is ascribed to God, that men did to themselves. Pharaoh is an excellent example; it's written that "GOD hardened his heart" (Ex10:1) --- but clearly Pharaoh did it HIMSELF (Ex9:34)This does NOT mean however that ISRAEL was the "same as" the SPIRIT OF STUPOR that God is said to have PLACED upon them in Romans 11. God did not place them upon themselves. God DID place "a spirit of stupor" upon them.
Show me where men are not judged (condemned!) for their sins.The Good News however is that God does not COUNT SINS against us or our fellow man. (2 Cor. 5:19) God DOES count sins against the devil and his messengers who are FOUND in mankind.
I've never heard this theory, that "the evil spirits inside men are condemned to judgment, while the men themselves (who had DONE all the murdering, fornicating, drunkenness, stealing) waltz into Heaven". It is contrary to all that Jesus said.So again, these two parties DO exist in the flesh and are dealt with in entirely different and opposite manners as stated above.
You are giving satan and his minions too much credit; we FOLLOW him, or we FOLLOW Christ. Fully a choice.The question pertaining to SIN and it's works does boil down to which party is IN CONTROL. I have no use in blaming only mankind while IGNORING the fact that none of us are alone in the flesh.
Yes, it does; see Rom1:19-20. He is revealed to them, and those who perish, reject Him.IF a slave of sin remains entirely A BLINDED CAPTIVE for their entire life, that STILL does not mean that God condemns them.
Here is the foundational absolute of Scripture:One part of deception is to NOT be aware that the sin indwelling us IS NOT US just as it was NO LONGER I for Paul. Another part of deception is to NOT be aware that the EVIL PRESENT with us is NOT US just as it was NOT PAUL.
You are correct; but they manifest through those who have chosen to be enslaved to them.There are predators here on this earth Ben...The predators are the ANTI-CHRIST spirits. I have no use thinking that those are my fellow man.
You're still "stuck" in Rom7, not realizing the solution to ch7 is ch8. We are NOT enslaved to evil, after we submit and surrender to God.I don't believe in "free will" choice Ben. Mankind's will's in the light of the fact of our present bondage to indwelling sin which is NOT US and EVIL PRESENT with us "whenever" we try to do good INDICATES beyond any doubt that the will's of mankind are CONTINUALLY tampered with by THOSE WORKINGS.
Each person is "dragged" ("helkuo") to where they CAN believe. Jn12:32I'd like you to think about that concept for a bit in your next response. You might find it a little harder to condemn your fellow believers who have fallen captive in light of the facts, and perhaps someday you'll turn to the real enemies in these matters for your rightfully discerned judgment.
But "freewill", submits to HIM, and then HIS power enables us.No man using his freewill can eradicate the presence of our enemies.
enjoy!
squint
Hi, "Squint". Question --- do you agree that the Holy Spirit, and the Son, physically indwell the believer?
The "one lump", in context, reflect the "saved". One lump is ON His "Potter's Wheel" --- conveying belief.
One lump is made to "honor", the other to "common" --- it is like Paul said in 1Cor12, "There are different gifts; if all were an eye, where would be the hearing? Or if all an ear, where would be the seeing?"
It is the third group, who is not ON the Potter's Wheel, who is not saved --- "vessels of wrath fitted for destruction".
I am not confused; we either walk in Jesus, or walk in sin --- the first reflects "belief", the second "unbelief". It's that black-n-white.
No unbeliever will be saved --- Scripture is clear on that.
In Rev20, people are thrown into the "Lake of Fire".
You seem to be espousing a form of "Humanism".
What of Heb10:26? Do you think that somehow "fire that consumes the adveraries", isn't permanent?
I gave you a list --- including verses like James5:19-20. I gave you four verses from Paul's letters to Timothy (five verses, I think) --- have you answered them?
Our souls have been redeemed --- we will receive new bodies. Christ redeemed all from the Cross --- each person RECEIVES that redemption (while alive), or rejects it.
Many times action is ascribed to God, that men did to themselves. Pharaoh is an excellent example; it's written that "GOD hardened his heart" (Ex10:1) --- but clearly Pharaoh did it HIMSELF (Ex9:34)
No, I think it's "your turn". I asked you to comment on 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, and 1Jn3:5-10 --- how is it possible to be actively doing the things listed in these passages, but still expect to stroll through the gates of Heaven?
1 cor 3:15 If any man's good work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
2 tim 2:13 Since we are unfaithful, Yet He abideth faithful: He cannot deny himself.
1 cor 12:21 and the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
eph 1:22 and hath put all things under his feet, and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church 23 which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.
Once again... who work is savaltion?
answer... John 1:13.... God's work ... HE GIVES GRACE AND FAITH EPH 2:8-9
still waiting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
Does the Blood of the Lamb shed for your sins mean that Christ is in you?
Receiving His graceful sacrifice, His physical presence into your heart, does. And nothing less is "salvation".
We abide IN Christ, and He abides in us; or we abide in sin. Those are our only choices...
Quote:
Does the Blood have to be in you or simply upon you that one is redeemed; forgiven of his sins and the stain of Adam's trangression removed from him?
Look at how "walking" connects to "cleansing by His blood":
"If we say that we have fellowship with Him but walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we walk in the light, then His blood cleanses us.
QUESTION - since "free will" is coming up. What happens to our will after we have entered eternity?
At that point - in heaven - in God's presence - can we reject him and fall away?
I would submit that the answer is "no." I would also say that is not then - "free will."
So it makes no sense to me why it is possible to reject him in this life - but not in the next -if you believe in freedom of the will here - why not there?
Is this OSAS mean that you can be baptized and given salvation then you can never lose it even if you become a blatant and horrible sinner? Or is this something else?
No, I think it's "your turn". I asked you to comment on 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, and 1Jn3:5-10 --- how is it possible to be actively doing the things listed in these passages, but still expect to stroll through the gates of Heaven?
same way King David gets to be resurrected promised before adultry and murder ... but salvation is God work... john 1:13........... roman 4:8, heb 10:17
1 cor 3:15 If any man's good work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
2 tim 2:13 Since we are unfaithful, Yet He abideth faithful: He cannot deny himself.
1 cor 12:21 and the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
eph 1:22 and hath put all things under his feet, and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church 23 which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.
Once again... who work is savaltion?
answer... John 1:13.... God's work ... HE GIVES GRACE AND FAITH EPH 2:8-9
still waiting
Gal 6:1 believers can be sinning
but still waiting Ben
Can a man "live righteously", apart from Jesus? No. John15:5 says "apart from Me you can do nothing".Ormly said:I can't agree. Many will be redeemed by the Lord who have never known His Name; those seen as righteous by God and justified by Him because of their righteous living. [not self-righteous here] It is they that the blood of the Lamb redeems.
"Born again", is "Christ in you" --- inseparable.Ours? Yes, if we are born again and being born again is another issue whereby we must be careful to read scripture as it appies to make necessary distinctions when reading it.
There is no "saved", apart from "born again". There is no righteousness apart from His.And this is just one of the necessary distinctions where it applies only to the born again.
There are three separate and distinct views of "OSAS":Araith said:Is this OSAS mean that you can be baptized and given salvation then you can never lose it even if you become a blatant and horrible sinner? Or is this something else?
The word "baptise", means "to immerse"; in Rom6:1-4 the "immersion into Christ" has nothing to do with water --- just as "the immersion into the Spirit" in Matt3:11, has nothing to do with water.I guess you would be thinking that accepting Christ in your heart is equal to Salvation? I said that because many people in my experience see Baptism as the first starting point of Salvation.
1Jn3 states that "he who practices sin, does not know God, is a child of the devil."Don't you guys think this idea is a little ridiculous? I mean I become genuinely saved and then I become a serial rapist and murderer...and I die that way, I still go to Heaven.
It would be ridiculous to think "sinningly saved". As Jesus said in John8, "He who practices sin, is a slave to sin; so when the Son sets him free, he shall be free indeed."Maybe I have the wrong idea here but if that is it then that is ridiculous in my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
I can't agree. Many will be redeemed by the Lord who have never known His Name; those seen as righteous by God and justified by Him because of their righteous living. [not self-righteous here] It is they that the blood of the Lamb redeems.
Can a man "live righteously", apart from Jesus? No. John15:5 says "apart from Me you can do nothing".
Men's rightouesness is to God as filthy rags; only Christ's righteousness, in and through us, is acceptible to God.
Quote:
Ours? Yes, if we are born again and being born again is another issue whereby we must be careful to read scripture as it appies to make necessary distinctions when reading it.
"Born again", is "Christ in you" --- inseparable.
Quote:
And this is just one of the necessary distinctions where it applies only to the born again.
There is no "saved", apart from "born again". There is no righteousness apart from His.
It's more like you don't "accept Jesus in your heart" unless you have been saved.I guess you would be thinking that accepting Christ in your heart is equal to Salvation? I said that because many people in my experience see Baptism as the first starting point of Salvation.
Don't you guys think this idea is a little ridiculous? I mean I become genuinely saved and then I become a serial rapist and murderer...and I die that way, I still go to Heaven. Maybe I have the wrong idea here but if that is it then that is ridiculous in my opinion.
For all you boys who think you have nothing to do with your salvation; aren't responsible anylonger after you say the sinners prayer, read this little book.
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