Poll: Does the Theory of Evolution have practical applications?

[Alan Kleinman]

You ever read Lucretius? Interesting window into the
ideas Romans had about such as sound, the sun and moon,
fossils and origin of life, etc.

Do you think there is pleasure in drug-resistant infections and failed cancer treatments? Lucretius was an Epicurean.

 

[Alan Kleinman]

You were given an opportunity to demonstrate your math to other scientists which you didn't take. Secondly, Dr. S claimed you did not demonstrate that there would be a different result with the stimulation that you suggested. I could have missed it but it does not appear that anyone was questioning your published explanation. I believe you had your reasons for leaving the discussion but you did not share them.

I present my math to anyone who will listen. I've even put the time and effort in to have this math peer-reviewed and published by people who understand probability theory. Swamidass doesn't understand introductory probability theory so how could he understand what I presented to him. I left that forum because Swamidass was very unpleasant and demonstrated the inability to take correction for his mathematical blunders.

 

[Speedwell]

I present my math to anyone who will listen. I've even put the time and effort in to have this math peer-reviewed and published by people who understand probability theory. Swamidass doesn't understand introductory probability theory so how could he understand what I presented to him. I left that forum because Swamidass was very unpleasant and demonstrated the inability to take correction for his mathematical blunders.

Considering the manner in which you "give correction" you should count yourself lucky that you didn't get a punch in the nose.

 

[Frank Robert]

Where do you get the idea that Christians don't care for people that suffer from HIV?

I did not mean to imply a majority don't care. I am aware of many religious organizations that were doing there best to help. Yet it is no secret that there were Christians leaders who were preaching that HIV was a punishment from God. I remember religious groups in the 1980s that were vocally against AIDs harm reduction education. Even as late 1990's condom distribution and needle exchange were being comdemed.

Fourteen Percent Of Americans Believe AIDS Might Be God’s Punishment: Survey

 

[Alan Kleinman]

Considering the manner in which you "give correction" you should count yourself lucky that you didn't get a punch in the nose.

You don't take correction well either. Do you want to give everyone who corrects you a punch in the nose? Remember you said:

No, but the calculations are different. Probability is the ratio of the number of favorable outcomes to the number of all possible outcomes. Before the evolutionary "event" the numerator of that fraction is quite large, because there are a number of favorable possibilities. After the "event" the numerator becomes 1 and the calculation becomes useless for predicting the likelihood of future evolutionary "events."

How many possible outcomes (hands that can be dealt) in a genome of length "G"? Let me help you with that math, 4^G. So if the genome length is 1e9, that is 4^(1e9). Try plugging that number into your calculator because that is the denominator for your probability calculation.

 

[Speedwell]

You don't take correction well either. Do you want to give everyone who corrects you a punch in the nose?

No. I don't need to. If you carry on the way you re going somebody else will doubtless do it for me. What is sad about it is the harm you are doing to the Christian religion by behaving the way you do around potentially evangelizable atheists.

Remember you said:

How many possible outcomes (hands that can be dealt) in a genome of length "G"? Let me help you with that math, 4^G. So if the genome length is 1e9, that is 4^(1e9). Try plugging that number into your calculator because that is the denominator for your probability calculation.

And once again he deftly avoids the question of the numerator, TaDaa!

 

[Alan Kleinman]

I did not mean to imply a majority don't care. I am aware of many religious organizations that were doing there best to help. Yet it is no secret that there were Christians leaders who were preaching that HIV was a punishment from God. I remember religious groups in the 1980s that were vocally against AIDs harm reduction education. Even as late 1990's condom distribution and needle exchange were being commended.

Fourteen Percent Of Americans Believe AIDS Might Be God’s Punishment: Survey

As I said, that view probably comes from the Bible which has many verses that state there are consequences for sin. But not all suffering is a consequence of sin, for example, the Bible also has the book of Job. I personally have cared for patients in my medical practice that had HIV not due to their sin. I cared for a woman who had HIV that she got from her husband. Her husband was a surgeon and got the infection from a needle stick during a procedure from a patient that had the disease. I've also treated patients with HIV due to their sexual behavior. I've never treated them differently. But it is a mistake not to think that there are consequences to our actions whether they be good or evil.

 

[Alan Kleinman]

No. I don't need to. If you carry on the way you re going somebody else will doubtless do it for me. What is sad about it is the harm you are doing to the Christian religion by behaving the way you do around potentially evangelizable atheists.
And once again he deftly avoids the question of the numerator, TaDaa!

So, give us the math for the numerator because when you plug in the numbers for the number of possible outcomes into your calculator, you get infinity. Since you are a math major, tell us what infinity/infinity is.

 

[Speedwell]

So, give us the math for the numerator because when you plug in the numbers for the number of possible outcomes into your calculator, you get infinity. Since you are a math major, tell us what infinity/infinity is.

Oh, you should pity me and my inadequate math education. In my ignorance I would not have supposed that a fraction with a denominator of 4^(1e9) was equal to infinity.

 

[Astrid]

Considering the manner in which you "give correction" you should count yourself lucky that you didn't get a punch in the nose.

A lot of people are "on the spectrum":
obsessive, and don't know how to
interact with others.

 

[Alan Kleinman]

Oh, you should pity me and my inadequate math education. In my ignorance I would not have supposed that a fraction with a denominator of 4^(1e9) was equal to infinity.

Well then Speedwell, you need to write up your mathematical brilliancy on how to do the mathematics of reptiles evolving into birds and fish evolving into mammals works. I'm sure the peer-reviewers will find your mathematical skills to be impeccable. It is all just a deal of the cards.

 

[Astrid]

No. I don't need to. If you carry on the way you re going somebody else will doubtless do it for me. What is sad about it is the harm you are doing to the Christian religion by behaving the way you do around potentially evangelizable atheists.

I don't think it is possible to evangelize
me or what I'd call a "real" atheist, but
that said, don't worry too much about
sorry specimens in that connection.

I've had the privilege of knowing
Christians who put their faith into
action in the most exemplary ways.

That there are less- worthles who
wish to (pretend to) wrap themselves
in the cloak would in no way dissuade me
from belief in God.

 

[Alan Kleinman]

A lot of people are "on the spectrum":
obsessive, and don't know how to
interact with others.

And others don't understand introductory probability theory such as those believers in the ToE. These are the ones that think that doubling population size doubles the probability of a beneficial mutation occurring.

 

[Frank Robert]

I personally have cared for patients in my medical practice that had HIV not due to their sin. I cared for a woman who had HIV that she got from her husband. Her husband was a surgeon and got the infection from a needle stick during a procedure from a patient that had the disease. I've also treated patients with HIV due to their sexual behavior. I've never treated them differently. But it is a mistake not to think that there are consequences to our actions whether they be good or evil.

And I sincerely commend you for your efforts, the good that came out from them and the inspiration to others. My complaint of religious leaders is that they used their condemnation of sin to prevent efforts and funding to prevent HIV.

 

[Alan Kleinman]

I don't think it is possible to evangelize
me or what I'd call a "real" atheist, but
that said, don't worry too much about
sorry specimens in that connection.

I've had the privilege of knowing
Christians who put their faith into
action in the most exemplary ways.

That there are less- worthles who
wish to (pretend to) wrap themselves
in the cloak would in no way dissuade me
from belief in God.

So, telling you that fossil tea-leaf reading is not the way to describe the physics and mathematics of evolution? Tsk Tsk. That really upsets you believers in the ToE. I think I'll press forward and continue to give the correct physics and mathematics of the evolution of drug resistance and why cancer treatments fail.

 

[Speedwell]

And others don't understand introductory probability theory such as those believers in the ToE. These are the ones that think that doubling population size doubles the probability of a beneficial mutation occurring.

At least we don't think that the value of a fraction with an exceedingly large denominator is necessarily infinite.

 

[Frank Robert]

A given environment can support a diversity of variants but jumping to the conclusion that birds are simply a diversification of reptiles requires the genetic transformation of respiratory systems, circulatory systems, excretory systems, musculoskeletal systems, metabolism,... as well the evolution of feathers. How does diversification of a population do that?

You are correct that birds are not simply a diversification of reptiles. Birds are avian dinosaurs that evolved from theropods dinosaurs. Like all dinosaurs they share a common ancestor, Archosaurs, with reptiles. The living reptiles that birds are most closely related to are crocodilians and crocodilians are more closely related to birds and dinosaurs than they are to other reptiles.

How Birds and Reptiles are Related
Scientists reconstruct genome of common ancestor of crocodiles, birds, dinosaurs
Dinosaurs Had Birdlike Lungs
The physiology of dinosaurs: circulatory and respiratory function in the largest animals ever to walk the earth
The molecular evolution of feathers with direct evidence from fossils

I take your word that you have a mathematical model that indicates all the above are impossible but a model does not falsify direct evidence.

 

[Alan Kleinman]

And I sincerely commend you for your efforts, the good that came out from them and the inspiration to others. My complaint of religious leaders is that they used their condemnation of sin to prevent efforts and funding to prevent HIV.

You forget that it was Ronald Reagan who was a Christian that initiated the government programs that led to the first successful treatments of HIV. There is a warning that this episode with HIV gives if people want to take it to heart. And it's not just HIV, there are a million new cases of STDs diagnosed worldwide every day.
One million STDs diagnosed every day, World Health Organization says
Some people might call that a pandemic.

 

[Astrid]

You are correct that birds are not simply a diversification of reptiles. Birds are avian dinosaurs that evolved from theropods dinosaurs. Like all dinosaurs they share a common ancestor, Archosaurs, with reptiles. The living reptiles that birds are most closely related to are crocodilians and crocodilians are more closely related to birds and dinosaurs than they are to other reptiles.

How Birds and Reptiles are Related
Scientists reconstruct genome of common ancestor of crocodiles, birds, dinosaurs
Dinosaurs Had Birdlike Lungs
The physiology of dinosaurs: circulatory and respiratory function in the largest animals ever to walk the earth
The molecular evolution of feathers with direct evidence from fossils

I take your word that you have a mathematical model that indicates all the above are impossible but a model does not falsify direct evidence.

At the risk of bringing in a different topic I
understand that climate change has a lot of
models.

 

[Alan Kleinman]

You are correct that birds are not simply a diversification of reptiles. Birds are avian dinosaurs that evolved from theropods dinosaurs. Like all dinosaurs they share a common ancestor, Archosaurs, with reptiles. The living reptiles that birds are most closely related to are crocodilians and crocodilians are more closely related to birds and dinosaurs than they are to other reptiles.

How Birds and Reptiles are Related
Scientists reconstruct genome of common ancestor of crocodiles, birds, dinosaurs
Dinosaurs Had Birdlike Lungs
The physiology of dinosaurs: circulatory and respiratory function in the largest animals ever to walk the earth
The molecular evolution of feathers with direct evidence from fossils

I take your word that you have a mathematical model that indicates all the above are impossible but a model does not falsify direct evidence.

I don't take misinterpretation of the fossil record as an explanation of the physics and mathematics of evolution. I study real evolutionary experiments and other repeatable empirical examples of evolution to derive my models. None of your links explain how evolution works while all the real, measurable, and repeatable empirical evidence of evolution coincides with the mathematical models I've presented. And this mathematics and empirical evidence shows that it takes a billion replications for each adaptive evolutionary step (mutation). You simply do not have the population sizes and recovery ability for the massive genetic transformations necessary to accomplish this type of evolutionary process claimed in your links. These authors need to reconsider their claims based on real evolutionary experimental examples. Or, these authors can try and design experiments that behave in a manner consistent with their claims in those links.