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Poll: Does the Theory of Evolution have practical applications?

Does the Theory of Evolution have practical applications?

  • I'm an evolutionist: NO, the Theory of Evolution does NOT have practical applications.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I'm a creationist: I am unsure if the Theory of Evolution has practical applications.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I'm an evolutionist: I am unsure if the Theory of Evolution has practical applications.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    35
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Alan Kleinman

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OK, so you can't explain it either. Meh.

You were right, it was 'really not fair' for you to ask me this kind of question - because you knew you couldn't explain it yourself - but you used it to get in an unnecessary dig about me not being able to do something I was never asked to do.

I now see where you're coming from.
You claim the ToE is true but you can't show how it works. Why do you think it is true? You can't even explain how natural selection works. Is that an unfair question?
 
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Alan Kleinman

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Is that for a protein being built up one AA at a time? Nobody thinks it happens that way.
Is that the total populations of all our ancestors, summed over time? That might be achievable
Of course, a functional protein cannot be built up one AA at a time except perhaps by a good biochemist in a laboratory. Are you arguing for intelligent design?

And actually, I did my arithmetic wrong. If it takes a billion replications for every beneficial mutation in an evolutionary adaptive process and you have a 3 billion base genome, it's going to take 1e9*3e9=3e18 replications in that one lineage to make that genetic transformation. Clearly, this is a low estimate because, in the Lenski experiment, it takes about 50 billion replications for each adaptive mutation. But even that estimate is low because the Lenski experiment uses only a single selection pressure. If the adaptive process occurs in an environment with multiple simultaneous selection pressures, the number of replications goes up exponentially.
 
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sesquiterpene

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And actually, I did my arithmetic wrong. If it takes a billion replications for every beneficial mutation in an evolutionary adaptive process and you have a 3 billion base genome, it's going to take 1e9*3e9=3e18 replications in that one lineage to make that genetic transformation.
I am still puzzled as to exactly what you are calculating here. What transformation?
 
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Frank Robert

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What did you do, send in the DNA from your birds to ancestry.com? And what positive result didn't come out from the Kishony experiment? Biologists certainly don't admit that they don't understand the physics and mathematics of evolution. If they did understand that physics and mathematics, they could explain the results of the Kishony and Lenski experiments. Those experiments are totally predictable. You just won't find a biologist doing it.

We know that birds are descendant from dinosaurs.

I already told you that I am not a mathematician and that there are many computational biologists and even named one. Here's a suggestion. Go to Peaceful Science and post a OP on your math. I am sure you will get a decent reception from experts in the field. I am not sure if Lenski is a participant but I know that he has written joint papers with Dr. Swamidass and other participants there.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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You claim the ToE is true but you can't show how it works. Why do you think it is true? You can't even explain how natural selection works. Is that an unfair question?
I don't claim it's true. I accept it as the best explanation we have for the diversity of life on Earth. I'm not an evolutionary biologist, so I accept the current consensus of such experts, and I'm not entirely ignorant of the multiple lines of evidence that support and are consistent with that model. If your criticism of the current model is shown to be correct, the consensus will eventually change. I wish you luck.
 
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Alan Kleinman

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I am still puzzled as to exactly what you are calculating here. What transformation?
An adaptive mutation gives an improvement in fitness to that new variant. It is called natural selection.
 
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Alan Kleinman

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We know that birds are descendant from dinosaurs.

I already told you that I am not a mathematician and that there are many computational biologists and even named one. Here's a suggestion. Go to Peaceful Science and post a OP on your math. I am sure you will get a decent reception from experts in the field. I am not sure if Lenski is a participant but I know that he has written joint papers with Dr. Swamidass and other participants there.
Really, you know that? How do you know that birds descended from dinosaurs? And where are your computational biologists that explain the mathematics of evolutionary adaptation? Has Dr. Swamidass explained the Kishony evolutionary experiment? Post a link to that paper.
 
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pitabread

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Alan Kleinman

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I don't claim it's true. I accept it as the best explanation we have for the diversity of life on Earth. I'm not an evolutionary biologist, so I accept the current consensus of such experts, and I'm not entirely ignorant of the multiple lines of evidence that support and are consistent with that model. If your criticism of the current model is shown to be correct, the consensus will eventually change. I wish you luck.
Well, that explanation has a huge mathematical problem. It's called the multiplication rule of probabilities.
 
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Alan Kleinman

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Looks like they already tried posting there: Kleinman: Four Questions About Evolution
Go and find the post where I question Dr. Swamidass about whether doubling population size doubles the probability of a beneficial mutation occurring. He answered wrong. Things weren't very peaceful after that. Actually, you did that with your link, thank you. Perhaps you ToEists want to try and answer those questions and see if you do any better.
 
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pitabread

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Go and find the post where I question Dr. Swamidass about whether doubling population size doubles the probability of a beneficial mutation occurring. He answered wrong. Things weren't very peaceful after that.

I haven't read the full thread and honestly probably won't (trying to navigate on that site is a bit weird, TBH).

Though I did see where they challenged you to develop/produce a simulation of your model and present the results.

Did you ever do that?
 
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Alan Kleinman

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I haven't read the full thread and honestly probably won't (trying to navigate on that site is a bit weird, TBH).

Though I did see where they challenged you to develop/produce a simulation of your model and present the results.

Did you ever do that?
I had already published the model, they wouldn't listen.
 
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pitabread

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I had already published the model, they wouldn't listen.

Did you create a simulation per what they suggested though?

It seems they were looking for you to provide ways of testing/validating your model. Did you do that?
 
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Alan Kleinman

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Did you create a simulation per what they suggested though?

It seems they were looking for you to provide ways of testing/validating your model. Did you do that?
This model had already predicted the behavior of the Kishony experiment before the experiment had been performed and I was in the process of working out the math for the Lenski experiment which is essentially the same except that experiment is performed in a highly competitive environment. As I said, they wouldn't listen.
 
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Alan Kleinman

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Did you create a simulation per what they suggested though?

It seems they were looking for you to provide ways of testing/validating your model. Did you do that?
Sorry, I don't recall them asking for anything like that. The way you validate a mathematical model is to test it against measured results. The way engineers do that is first study the physical model and then from first principles (the physical and mathematical laws of physics) derive the mathematical model. Then from values from the experiment, you see if those results correlate with the mathematical model. If they don't, you go back and reconsider your model and why the results deviate. Haldane's work does something like this but until you get the results from the Lenski experiment, you really don't have the experimental data to verify his model of competition. Jukes-Cantor did this with their Markov model of DNA evolution but until the Kishony experiment came along, you didn't have the empirical data to test that model. That's what prompted me to go back and look at their derivation and why it doesn't fit the data. That's when it became apparent to me that they weren't doing the physics correctly because they didn't take into account population size. When you do take population size into account in the Jukes-Cantor model, it then correlates correctly with the Kishony (and Lenski experiments). Felsenstein who wrote a derivative model of the Jukes-Cantor also missed this part of the physics. I challenged him to apply his model to the Lenski experiment but he said it would take too long. I tried to explain to him that his model was wrong but he wouldn't listen either. So, I publish my work where people will listen and want to understand the evolution of drug-resistance and why cancer treatments fail and just wait and hope that the mainline biologists can learn something and come to their senses.
 
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Alan Kleinman

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You are being evasive. Did you forget exactly what you were trying to calculate?
Not only did I not forget, but I also presented the calculation of the number of replications necessary to give a reasonable probability of a beneficial mutation occurring. That's the math that explains how natural selection works for DNA evolution. It's really not that complicated, if a variant cannot achieve sufficient replications (fitness to reproduce), the probability of another beneficial mutation occurring on a member of this variant will be small.
 
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SelfSim

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But all those ways proteins are used are determined by something. Only about 2% of the human genome codes for proteins, most of the rest of the genome is what determines for what purpose those proteins are used.
Who says proteins are 'used' by anything?
There doesn't have to be anything determining their 'function'. They develop, persist and respond to certain stimuli but what happens after that, is simply what we observe.
A protein's 'purpose' at best, is only in the mind of some observer.

Regardless of your math model, I find your base assumptions here to not be clearly distinguished as being assumptions. I've seen this multiple times in many of your posts in this thread.
 
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Speedwell

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Not only did I not forget, but I also presented the calculation of the number of replications necessary to give a reasonable probability of a beneficial mutation occurring. That's the math that explains how natural selection works for DNA evolution. It's really not that complicated, if a variant cannot achieve sufficient replications (fitness to reproduce), the probability of another beneficial mutation occurring on a member of this variant will be small.
That's all very well, but your calculations appear to be derived from the probability of a specific mutation.
 
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Ken-1122

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I think that one of the reasons atheists embrace the ToE so tightly as part of their doctrine is that they see this as justification that they have no accountability to God.
Embracing the TOE is not necessary to dismiss claims of God.
 
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