Poll: Does the Theory of Evolution have practical applications?

[Astrid]

I'm not familiar with the particular fly example you are referring to, but if there was a change in the gene pool, according to biology that is evolution
Biological Evolution - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics
The differences between adaption and evolution is even though adaption is the first step in evolution, it is a short term change, where as evolution is a long term changes that occur at the genetic level
Difference Between Adaptation and Evolution - Pediaa.Com

So we're on same wavelength there

 

[Astrid]

Yet you mention an interesting point which creationists often miss: a favorable variant must already present in the population for natural selection to offer an opportunity to it. Natural selection selects from amongst living creatures, not genomes or potential mutations. For evolution to occur, a critter must already be alive and kicking that can take advantage of changing selective criteria.

Yet?

 

[Speedwell]

Yet?

Your use of the phrase "Not worth further discussion" suggested to me that you wanted to leave that theme. So I said "Yet" in the sense of "I want to say just one more thing about it..."

 

[Alan Kleinman]

Why would I want to? I made my point, I supported my point; that is all I was interested in doing.

Aren't you one of those who think the ToE is true and has practical application? So the only point you have is the ToE is useless mythology that can't even explain the simplest evolutionary experiments. The only practical application of the ToE is to give drug-resistant infections, herbicide-resistant weeds, pesticide-resistant insects, and failed cancer treatments. The ToE is not only useless, but it is also harmful!

 

[Alan Kleinman]

Droll. Almost like what I said to you.
Almost.

The difference is that I explain how drug-resistant variants evolve using introductory probability theory (a course you took but didn't get much out of it) and you can't explain the simplest evolutionary experiment with your mythological ToE.

 

[Astrid]

Your use of the phrase "Not worth further discussion" suggested to me that you wanted to leave that theme. So I said "Yet" in the sense of "I want to say just one more thing about it..."

Ah ok.
It seemed like no more to say-
But your underlining what you
did was worthwhile.

 

[Alan Kleinman]

Yet you mention an interesting point which creationists often miss: a favorable variant must already present in the population for natural selection to offer an opportunity to it. Natural selection selects from amongst living creatures, not genomes or potential mutations. For evolution to occur, a critter must already be alive and kicking that can take advantage of changing selective criteria.

I don't miss that point at all, I explain how many replications are necessary for those variants to appear. In fact, I published a paper that explains how many targeted therapies will be necessary to have a high probability of successful cancer therapy based on the number of cells in the cancer. And that paper was not based on the ToE. Read the paper and learn something about evolution:
Drug Resistance, An Enemy of Targeted Cancer Therapies
Unlike the ToE, my theory has practical application.

 

[Alan Kleinman]

So we're on same wavelength there

The difference between adaptation and evolution is that adaptation is an evolutionary change that gives improved fitness to reproduce in the given environment. There are many evolutionary changes that don't give improved fitness to reproduce. In fact, most evolution leads to extinction. That's why 99% of species have gone extinct. Selection pressures kill things, adaptation requires huge numbers of replications. That's why adaptation requires vast size populations to occur. If you understood the math, this would be clear to you, but you don't.

 

[Ken-1122]

Aren't you one of those who think the ToE is true and has practical application? So the only point you have is the ToE is useless mythology that can't even explain the simplest evolutionary experiments.

Now you are just making stuff up. I've never claimed it can't explain evolutionary experiments, or any of that other nonsense you're spittin' out. If you disagree, point to a post number where I even suggested any of that stuff. If you're gonna put words in my mouth, use my words instead of making stuff up.

The only practical application of the ToE is to give drug-resistant infections, herbicide-resistant weeds, pesticide-resistant insects, and failed cancer treatments. The ToE is not only useless, but it is also harmful!

Give an example of the TOE actually doing any of that stuff.

 

[Alan Kleinman]

Now you are just making stuff up. I've never claimed it can't explain evolutionary experiments, or any of that other nonsense you're spittin' out. If you disagree, point to a post number where I even suggested any of that stuff. If you're gonna put words in my mouth, use my words instead of making stuff up.

Give an example of the TOE actually doing any of that stuff.

[Staff Edit]

And don't you know that drug-resistant infections, herbicide-resistant weeds, pesticide-resistant insects, and failed cancer treatments occur? That's because the ToE explains nothing about evolution, if the theory had any practical application, it would explain why this happens. The ToE is just a story about reptiles evolving into birds and fish evolving into mammals without explaining anything about how random mutation and natural selection works. The ToE is mythology for naive school children and it only causes them harm.

 

[Astrid]

Now you are just making stuff up. I've never claimed it can't explain evolutionary experiments, or any of that other nonsense you're spittin' out. If you disagree, point to a post number where I even suggested any of that stuff. If you're gonna put words in my mouth, use my words instead of making stuff up.

Give an example of the TOE actually doing any of that stuff.

" Now" making things up? Ha.

Ig city.

 

[pitabread]

The ToE is just a story about reptiles evolving into birds and fish evolving into mammals without explaining anything about how random mutation and natural selection works.

The Theory of Evolution doesn't explain how mutations and selection works?

That's a new one.

 

[Astrid]

The Theory of Evolution doesn't explain how mutations and selection works?

That's a new one.

It comes from beyond the limits of
mainstream science.

In fiction mad scientists
( or young rebel ones like Elvis)
are a thing. They forge alone, deep into
the unknown, far ahead of all the boffins
on earth.
Oddly, many people not only think
this actually happens in real life, but that
they themselves have done it.

I wonder what name a psychologist gives to
the condition.

 

[Alan Kleinman]

" Now" making things up? Ha.

Ig city.

I don't have to make things up, I have the mathematical and empirical evidence to support my explanations. If you had gotten anything out of your introductory probability theory class, you would understand the explanation. Sadly, you didn't, if you had, you would understand the mathematics of evolutionary adaptation and could explain the Kishony and Lenski experiments. The ToE doesn't give an explanation, it is just a mythological story about reptiles evolving into birds and fish evolving into mammals. Here's a simple question for you Estrid, do a series of microevolutionary changes add up to a macroevolutionary change?

 

[Alan Kleinman]

The Theory of Evolution doesn't explain how mutations and selection works?

That's a new one.

Oh boy! pitabread is going to explain the Kishony and Lenski experiments with the ToE. Don't hold your breath for that to happen.

 

[Alan Kleinman]

It comes from beyond the limits of
mainstream science.

In fiction mad scientists
( or young rebel ones like Elvis)
are a thing. They forge alone, deep into
the unknown, far ahead of all the boffins
on earth.
Oddly, many people not only think
this actually happens in real life, but that
they themselves have done it.

I wonder what name a psychologist gives to
the condition.

The ToE is the modern-day version of the flat-earth theory. The belief that reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals is based on a loss of contact with reality. Study and understand the Kishony and Lenski experiments and learn how evolution actually works (if you can overcome your biases and indoctrination).

 

[pitabread]

Oh boy! pitabread is going to explain the Kishony and Lenski experiments with the ToE. Don't hold your breath for that to happen.

Not really sure where this comment is coming from, as I haven't read the whole thread. Is this just one of those "gotcha!" creationist challenges?

If you want to find out about Kishony and Lenski's respective works, there is already published scientific literature you could read.

 

[Ophiolite]

Have you always been this impatient?

Have you always been this rude?
Instead of pontificating and making wild claims, why don't you actually lay out step by step the entirety of your argument. If there is research you think relevant, don't simply express snide amazement that we don't know it, or don't understand it, or don't realise how it shows ToE is nonsense, instead explain why you think that research is relevant and how it invalidates ToE. This is how a reasonable, informed person would conduct a discussion. [Staff Edit]

 

[Alan Kleinman]

Not really sure where this comment is coming from, as I haven't read the whole thread. Is this just one of those "gotcha!" creationist challenges?

If you want to find out about Kishony and Lenski's respective works, there is already published scientific literature you could read.

You could read it too and learn how evolution actually works. Here's a paper that explains evolutionary adaptation for the Kishony experiment:
The Kishony Mega-Plate Experiment, a Markov Process
And here is a paper that explains evolutionary adaptation for the Lenski experiment:
Fixation and Adaptation in the Lenski E. coli Long Term Evolution Experiment
If you have trouble understanding either of these papers, let me know. And if you think you understand evolutionary adaptation, explain why it takes a billion replications for each adaptation step in the Kishony experiment and far more than a billion replications for each evolutionary adaptation step in the Lenski experiment?

 

[Alan Kleinman]

Have you always been this rude?
Instead of pontificating and making wild claims, why don't you actually lay out step by step the entirety of your argument. If there is research you think relevant, don't simply express snide amazement that we don't know it, or don't understand it, or don't realise how it shows ToE is nonsense, instead explain why you think that research is relevant and how it invalidates ToE. This is how a reasonable, informed person would conduct a discussion. You are just expectorating angst like an unruly child.

Why is it that when you speak to someone who believes in the ToE truthfully that they think it is rude? And I have laid out my argument step by step in its entirety several times, you are just too inattentive to see and read the arguments. I posted links to the papers which explain the fundamentals of evolutionary adaptation. Pay attention this time and read these links:

The first paper gives the mathematics which applies to the evolutionary adaptation of a population to single selection pressure. This paper applies to the Kishony and Lenski experiments (and any other evolutionary adaptation process involving only a single selection pressure.
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection

The next paper gives the mathematics which applies to the evolutionary adaptation of a population to multiple simultaneous selection pressures. This paper applies to evolutionary processes where multiple selection pressures are acting simultaneously such as combination therapy for the treatment of HIV (and any other evolutionary adaptation process with multiple simultaneous selection pressures).
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance

And the following paper shows a different way of modeling evolutionary adaptation using Markov Chains for single and multiple simultaneous selection pressures.
The Kishony Mega-Plate Experiment, a Markov Process

If you want to see how to apply this math to the Lenski experiment or for the use of targeted therapy for the treatment of cancer, I'll give you links to those papers as well. Just don't be rude and pay attention.