Poll: Do you claim to be a New Covenant Christian?

[bugkiller]

Given what I have said about the Gentiles/church being sharers in New Covenant made with Israel rather than the New Covenant being made with the Church.

What would you say are the repercussions of that standpoint. You are the first person I have ever heard use the term New Covenant Christian. So I am on the questioning side.
Why is it important to believe that the New Covenant was made with the church rather than with Israel and the church grafted in.

The NC was not made with the Church. The Church is not graft into Israel neither is an Israeli. Everyone is graft into the Root Jesus. We are in Jesus - The Church is a joint heir with Israel - Eph 2, not part of the commonwealth. That is the Church participates in their blessing. We are in Jesus not Israel per JN 14:20;15:4, 7.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Good question.

Galatians 1:6-9 says there is only ONE Gospel

Very true. What do you think this one Gospel is?

Galatians 3:7 says that the ONE Gospel - was "preached to Abraham".

What do you think this one Gospel preached to Abraham is?

In Jeremiah 31:31-34 we have the promise of adoption as sons, forgiveness of sins, being made right with God in both heart and mind.

You are mistaken to link your comments to Jeremiah.

It appears that this is either "Another Gospel" or it is the "One Gospel" and in 2Cor 3 Paul claims to be a minister of it.

What do you think this one Gospel is?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

One and the same Gospel in OT and NT - such that the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-33 is quoted verbatim again - in Hebrews 8:6-10 reminding us of who we are in Christ,

Who are we in Christ?

As you point out - it is only because the Christian has accepted Christ, been adopted, born again, forgiven that he/she can claim to be under the New Covenant which promises those very things.

Been adopted by Who or what?

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Very true. What do you think this one Gospel is?What do you think this one Gospel preached to Abraham is?You are mistaken to link your comments to Jeremiah.What do you think this one Gospel is?

bugkiller

Who here will claim that the NEW Covenant spelled out in Jeremiah 31:31-33 and then quoted verbatim in Hebrews 8:6-10 should not be mentioned on a thread that is about "The NEW Covenant"??

This should be 'instructive' for all.

 

[bugkiller]

In this case I think it is good to notice this:

For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God.
Romans 2:28-29

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them, and became partaker with them of the root and of the richness of the olive tree;
Romans 11:17

“Gentiles” can become member of Israel, through Jesus, in Biblical point of view.

No a gentile can not become a member of Israel through Jesus per Ex12:48.

Rom 11 says the Root (Jesus) gives us life (bearest thee). Already quoted from Jn 14 about us being in Jesus. True the Christian is graft in among them opposed into them.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

The NC was not made with the Church.

This sounds like "you" posting that you do not choose to be under the NEW Covenant - does it not?

You have free will - you can choose that path if you wish.

But I notice that the vast majority that answer the polling question - admit to being NEW Covenant Christians.

How - "instructive" for the unbiased objective reader.

 

[bugkiller]

Who here will claim that the NEW Covenant spelled out in Jeremiah 31:31-33 and then quoted verbatim in Hebrews 8:6-10 should not be mentioned on a thread that is about "The NEW Covenant"??

This should be 'instructive' for all.

Please review my post and respond much slower.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 2
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
.

No a gentile can not become a member of Israel through Jesus per Ex12:48.

And "yet" - the Bible says --

Romans 2
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

 

[bugkiller]

This sounds like "you" posting that you do not choose to be under the NEW Covenant - does it not?

You have free will - you can choose that path if you wish.

But I notice that the vast majority that answer the polling question - admit to being NEW Covenant Christians.

How - "instructive" for the unbiased objective reader.

You have argued all over this forum the Christian is under the law. Such is contrary to Jn 15:10 where Jesus says to keep His (Jesus') commands opposed to those of His Father (10 Cs). The NC is based on "better promises," not law (10 Cs).

Your NC is an amended OC and not "NEW." Jeremiah says "cut a new stone" which means start from scratch. Heb 8:6 says based on "better promises," not law. Jeremiah also says "Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake.." Verse 33 does not move the covenant they broke to anyone's heart. The covenant they broke was written in stone called the 10 Cs per Deut 4:13 -

And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deut 5:3 makes it clear that covenant was made only with the COI.

Now my free will since you brought it up is to believe and accept Jn 1:17; 3:16; 5:24; 10:1-10; 15:10.

Need to quote JN 10:1-10 here -

1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. 6This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

And "yet" - the Bible says --

Romans 2
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

This does not prove your point. it is not addressed to gentiles nor is it about becoming a Jew (spiritual or otherwise). We Christians are children of Abraham, not Israel because we are the children of promise.

And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God. Hosea 2:23

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. Rom 9:8

Both of these exclude Israel.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
And "yet" - the Bible says --

Romans 2
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

This does not prove your point. it is not addressed to gentiles nor is it about becoming a Jew (spiritual or otherwise).

You have free will to believe that the book of Romans was not meant for gentiles to read or that the "uncircumcised" person in Romans 2 is not a gentile -- or that Paul is not declaring that uncircumcised person to be a Jew 'inwardly' no matter what the text says to the contrary.

I have never denied your right to have free will.

But for the rest of us we see that it is the physically uncircumcised
person that is declared to be a Jew "inwardly" and that it is not "ISRAEL" that is "of the flesh" in Romans 9 but it is "Israel that is of the promise" -- "sons of the promise" that is accounted as Israel. Which includes gentile believers according to Paul

Where those children of the "promise" in Romans 9 including gentiles
23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

 

[BobRyan]

You posted

You have argued all over this forum the Christian is under the law. Such is contrary to Jn 15:10 where Jesus says to keep His (Jesus') commands opposed to those of His Father (10 Cs). The NC is based on "better promises," not law (10 Cs).

Your NC is an amended OC and not "NEW." Jeremiah says "cut a new stone" which means start from scratch. Heb 8:6 says based on "better promises," not law. Jeremiah also says "Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake.." Verse 33 does not move the covenant they broke to anyone's heart. The covenant they broke was written in stone called the 10 Cs per Deut 4:13 -

And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deut 5:3 makes it clear that covenant was made only with the COI.

Now my free will since you brought it up is to believe and accept Jn 1:17; 3:16; 5:24; 10:1-10; 15:10.

Need to quote JN 10:1-10 here -

1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. 6This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

bugkiller

But it is the very start of your post where you make a key mistake.

You have argued all over this forum the Christian is under the law. Such is contrary to Jn 15:10 where Jesus says to keep His (Jesus') commands opposed to those of His Father (10 Cs).

That is the most extreme contradiction of the claims of Christ in the Gospel of John - that I have ever seen!!

John 14
9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

John 12
49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. 50 I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”

Matt 19
17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man *said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

The NEW Covenant - as it is written in the actual Bible - is found in Jeremiah 31:31-33 and Hebrews 8:6-10.

Do you accept it - or reject it as applying to yourself today?

I claim to be a New Covenant Christian and at one time I thought all Christians would accept the New Covenant as applying to them as well. Since then some have made comments indicating they don't think it applies to them today.

What about you?

I think that Old/New Covenant discussions get derailed because of incorrect understanding of what the covenants mean in scripture. Most think of covenants in a secular legalistic mindset. If party 1 does something that party 2 says to do, then party 2 will give party 1 something. This teaches an earned reward, not grace.

It should be noted that the covenants are not the source of our salvation. Salvation has been by faith in God throughout all time, OC and NC and even BC: before covenant. We oft forget that there were many people saved before any written scripture containing any covenants.

If we think of the covenant as being what God's people do because they follow God, than we would have a better appreciation of how they help us. And the most important thing that Christians do to remember what God did for us in Jesus' death is the Lord's Supper. If you are going to talk about the New Covenant, than you better quote scripture where Jesus instituted it.

Luke 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

1 Corinthians 11:25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

 

[listed]

I think that Old/New Covenant discussions get derailed because of incorrect understanding of what the covenants mean in scripture. Most think of covenants in a secular legalistic mindset. If party 1 does something that party 2 says to do, then party 2 will give party 1 something. This teaches an earned reward, not grace.

It should be noted that the covenants are not the source of our salvation. Salvation has been by faith in God throughout all time, OC and NC and even BC: before covenant. We oft forget that there were many people saved before any written scripture containing any covenants.

If we think of the covenant as being what God's people do because they follow God, than we would have a better appreciation of how they help us. And the most important thing that Christians do to remember what God did for us in Jesus' death is the Lord's Supper. If you are going to talk about the New Covenant, than you better quote scripture where Jesus instituted it.

Luke 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

1 Corinthians 11:25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

Good point.

 

[BobRyan]

I think that Old/New Covenant discussions get derailed because of incorrect understanding of what the covenants mean in scripture.

True. Step one is to actually quote the New Covenant as it is stated in scripture. So that would be Jeremiah 31:31-33 and Hebrews 8:6-10.

Step two would be to admit what exegesis demands when it comes to Jeremiah using the term "LAW".

The New Covenant IS the Gospel - it provides for forgiveness of sins, adoption by God, and being taught by God.

Gal 1:6-9 says there is in fact only ONE Gospel and "The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8

 

[The Times]

In this case I think it is good to notice this:

For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God.
Romans 2:28-29

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them, and became partaker with them of the root and of the richness of the olive tree;
Romans 11:17

“Gentiles” can become member of Israel, through Jesus, in Biblical point of view.

Let me also add to your statement....

"Jews” without Christ can become members of Israel, through Jesus, in Biblical point of view.

All they need to do, in order to enter the Heavenly Kingdom of Israel, where the Crowned Monarch Jesus Christ sits on the throne of David, is to say......

Blessed is he who came in the name of the lord. The Jews without Christ Jesus need to do this in order to be counted within Israel's numbers. Just like Paul needed come through the Church that Jesus established as the salvation vehicle, within the great commission.

If Paul could be healed from his physical and spiritual blindness by himself, then Jesus would not have told him to go to an apostle within his church to be laid hands on. Cornelius who believed in Jesus would not have been instructed to call for Peter, neither would God have needed to instruct Peter to go to Cornelius's house to preach and to baptise him.

The indearment of God to his Son's Church shows how it is the established ministering snd baptizing vehicle to salvation.....

12Again I asked him, “What are these two olive branches beside the two gold pipes that pour out golden oil?”

13He replied, “Do you not know what these are?”

“No, my lord,” I said.

14So he said, “These are the two who are anointed to serve the Lord of all the earth.” (Zechariah 4:12-14)

It doesn't stop at this witness only, but is also ratified by John in....

3And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.” (Revelation 11:3-4)

The symbol of the two witnesses is the Church that pours out the golden oil of salvation, through her ministry and baptisms, within the great commission.

The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches. (Revelation 1:20)

The gold represents the treasure of the Kingdom of Heaven, the true Israel of God. The gold represents an ability to provide access to the treasures of heaven and like gold a means to purify oneself by accessing the treasures of heaven through the church that pours out the golden oil of salvation through its ministry and baptisms.

 

[BobRyan]

In Romans 9 it is only children of the promise that can become members of spiritual Israel.
In Galatians 4 we see this statement made to gentiles

25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written,
“Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear;
Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor;
For more numerous are the children of the desolate
Than of the one who has a husband.”
28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say?
“Cast out the bondwoman and her son,
For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.