Pleasure in marriage

[ArmyMatt]

Oh, sorry about that ! I Usually look at what forum I'm posting to but ad.ittedly did not do that. Had I realized it was the Orthodox forum I wouldn't even have replied. Again, sorry about that.

no worries, it happens

 

[Light of the East]

yes, and to prevent us from eating of the Tree of Life, and be stuck eternally in our fallen condition (imagine having cancer forever).

Fascinating answer. Could you describe how it is that being in flesh keeps us from eating from the Tree of Life? Trying to wrap my head around that one.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Fascinating answer. Could you describe how it is that being in flesh keeps us from eating from the Tree of Life? Trying to wrap my head around that one.

because we die, therefore had to leave the Garden.

 

[The Liturgist]

Oh, sorry about that ! I Usually look at what forum I'm posting to but ad.ittedly did not do that. Had I realized it was the Orthodox forum I wouldn't even have replied. Again, sorry about that.

No worries at all. I myself once wrote a lengthy treatise on the history of sarum blue vestments and paraments in Advent and why I regard their use as suboptimal (I have since revised that opinion after reflecting on how in some churches Advent is very properly given a mariological theme, and blue is the liturgical color associated with St. Mary and also with the bodiless powers (that is to say, angels), which actually makes the color very appropriate for Advent in the Western church; we don’t use it in Eastern Orthodoxy but a number of Orthodox churches use red vestments in the Nativity Fast interestingly enough, albeit a darker or bolder shade, more like a bright crimson, than the red or orange-red usually from that used in the Apostles Fast (which is in between All Saints, the Sunday following Pentecost on our Calendar, and the Feast of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul) , thinking I was replying to a thread by my Lutheran friend @MarkRohfrietsch , but in fact, my opinion, which could be interpreted as being critical of the prevailing custom in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, a denomination I am seldom critical of, was in fact made in the LCMS and Confessional Lutheran subforum, which was a very embarassing moment (even more so in retrospect considering that I have since revised my views as explained above with the superabundance of detail which any post I make that even tangentially refers to liturgics is known for).

So I have wound up with much more egg on my face by posting in the wrong forum, and the egg was made jumbo grade by the fact that later I realized my critique of Sarum Blue was wrong and had been the result of an uncritical acceptance of some of the aesthetic advice concerning Western liturgical practices put forward by Rev. Percy Dearmer in A Psrson’s Handbook; he came to the conclusion that since, as far as his research could make known, the color of sarum blue was the invention of Victorian liturgists during the Romantic era of the arts in general, it therefore was wrong to use it, but instead the more traditional violet should be used in Advent. This argument is actually fallacious, even if his research is correct, particularly considering that even violet vestments were historically innovative and the early church only knew light and dark colored vestments, but as much as I love the Coptic Orthodox Church, I am glad they are the only liturgical church which is so extremely conservative with regards to liturgical color.

Now this segue I realize is not greatly related to the OP and the subject of what one might call the sexual concept in mystical eschatology, for which I do beg everyone else’s forgiveness, but on that latter subject I would actually state that @Dave G. did make a valid point, and the importance of blissful marital relations is great; in Orthodoxy the extremely negative attitude towards sex one sees among some Roman Catholics and also some Fundamentalist Protestants is lacking, but it would not be regarded as appropriate under ordinary conditions to have sexual relations, for example, on major fasting days, or during Holy Week (the week before Pascha). That said, occasionally one reads of some new converts to Orthodoxy embracing “marital fasting” and touting its virtues to an extent that seems eyebrow raising.

Orthodoxy also does celebrate holy celibacy and virginity, and one thing I find loathesome about our contemporary society is the way in which the media tries toe embarass people who have intentionally remained virgins, particularly men, the idea being if you are a man who has not had sexual relations in a certain amount of time it must be because you are evil and repulsive and no one wants to associate with you. In fact, I myself in my twenties fled from a scenario where a friend was having a birthday party which was clearly heading into a direction where inappropriate behavior was already occurring; I recall a fellow guest who was a stranger to me asking “Who is this fool?”, after I had politely excused myself and was in the process of disembarking from the limousine my friend had rented so as to attend to my work. I do believe i made the correct decision, morally as well as hygeniecally, however, and the fact that our society would seek to humiliate me for pursuing what the Christian religion regards as dignity is a testament to the moral decadence and corruption of the media.

 

[The Liturgist]

because we die, therefore had to leave the Garden.

Which is a great mercy. I believe i’ve told you how I have nightmares of human life continuing perpetually in its current fallen state. This does not mean I want to die; rather it means that I hope for a resurrection into a joyous eternal life rather than a state of interminable suffering.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Which is a great mercy. I believe i’ve told you how I have nightmares of human life continuing perpetually in its current fallen state. This does not mean I want to die; rather it means that I hope for a resurrection into a joyous eternal life rather than a state of interminable suffering.

amen

 

[Light of the East]

because we die, therefore had to leave the Garden.

So flesh makes us able to die. Spirit could not die, but could eat of the Tree of Life and continue in that miserable state forever.

Wow! I really learned something today!

 

[The Liturgist]

So flesh makes us able to die. Spirit could not die, but could eat of the Tree of Life and continue in that miserable state forever.

Wow! I really learned something today!

Actually that’s not what I think Fr. Matt was saying, insofar as the Orthodox consensus patrum seems to be that Adam and Eve did have physical or material bodies, they were not disembodied sprits, but they were more akin to our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ after His resurrection; they did not have the mortal flesh we now have. Now our Lord represents the resurrected condition which is according to the Fathers superior to the pre-fall state of Adam and Eve, which was still physical, but not mortal.

However with their human flesh they could not remain in the Garden of Eden and access the Tree of Life and thus remain in the fallen state of sin indefinitely. Indefinite existence in a sinful state is torture; people forget that God provided us with death as a mercy because people fail to understand the difference between death and continuous destruction and suffering as a result of the existence of evil, which will not be allowed in the World to Come, so those who do not prepare through repentence to be with Christ in the life of the World to Come will instead, as a mercy, be provided with the outer darkness so as to avoid being tormented by the immediate proximity of the love of God which is experienced by evil as wrath.

Evil is neither created nor uncreated but is rather a destructive corruption which by its nature cannot be created nor could it have existed before creation.

This is my understanding which I believe is correct, but if I have made any mistakes whatever @ArmyMatt says should be regarded as more accurate, since he is more knowledgeable and more pious than I am and obtained a much superior theological education at St. Tikhon’s.

By the way, St. Tikhon’s has two YouTube channels, one associated with the monastery and one with the seminary, but they both cover the same services at their chapel, which is liturgically one of the best OCA churches. So if you want a backup OCA parish to watch on Sunday because you can’t get to your OCA or liturgically similar parish, I suggest it as being particularly good. I should probably publish a list of my favorite Orthodox streaming churches for the benefit of members. One thing I am trying to find is one of the OCA’s churches in Alaska that streams; I have not found one yet, perhaps because of the rural nature of many of them and the accompanying lack of good Internet infrastructure, but there are some in Anchorage and other urban areas where the Internet infrastructure is of the highest quality, better even then what the Canadians in Yellowknife or the northern portion of BC (or indeed the northern portion of any Canadian province) have.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Actually that’s not what I think Fr. Matt was saying, insofar as the Orthodox consensus patrum seems to be that Adam and Eve did have physical or material bodies, they were not disembodied sprits, but they were more akin to our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ after His resurrection; they did not have the mortal flesh we now have.

yes, it’s the fallenness of our current flesh that we were clothed in.

 

[The Liturgist]

yes, it’s the fallenness of our current flesh that we were clothed in.

Yes that was my understanding. Adam and Eve had unfallen flesh and Christ when he rose benefitted from having glorified flesh, which we will also receive, which will allow us to live without certain constraints imposed by our present fallen condition.

 

[Light of the East]

yes, it’s the fallenness of our current flesh that we were clothed in.

Oh! So the fall actually changed our flesh from being like the flesh of the resurrected Christ to that of our current fallen condition?

 

[Light of the East]

Actually that’s not what I think Fr. Matt was saying, insofar as the Orthodox consensus patrum seems to be that Adam and Eve did have physical or material bodies, they were not disembodied sprits, but they were more akin to our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ after His resurrection; they did not have the mortal flesh we now have. Now our Lord represents the resurrected condition which is according to the Fathers superior to the pre-fall state of Adam and Eve, which was still physical, but not mortal.

However with their human flesh they could not remain in the Garden of Eden and access the Tree of Life and thus remain in the fallen state of sin indefinitely. Indefinite existence in a sinful state is torture; people forget that God provided us with death as a mercy because people fail to understand the difference between death and continuous destruction and suffering as a result of the existence of evil, which will not be allowed in the World to Come, so those who do not prepare through repentence to be with Christ in the life of the World to Come will instead, as a mercy, be provided with the outer darkness so as to avoid being tormented by the immediate proximity of the love of God which is experienced by evil as wrath.

Evil is neither created nor uncreated but is rather a destructive corruption which by its nature cannot be created nor could it have existed before creation.

This is my understanding which I believe is correct, but if I have made any mistakes whatever @ArmyMatt says should be regarded as more accurate, since he is more knowledgeable and more pious than I am and obtained a much superior theological education at St. Tikhon’s.

By the way, St. Tikhon’s has two YouTube channels, one associated with the monastery and one with the seminary, but they both cover the same services at their chapel, which is liturgically one of the best OCA churches. So if you want a backup OCA parish to watch on Sunday because you can’t get to your OCA or liturgically similar parish, I suggest it as being particularly good. I should probably publish a list of my favorite Orthodox streaming churches for the benefit of members. One thing I am trying to find is one of the OCA’s churches in Alaska that streams; I have not found one yet, perhaps because of the rural nature of many of them and the accompanying lack of good Internet infrastructure, but there are some in Anchorage and other urban areas where the Internet infrastructure is of the highest quality, better even then what the Canadians in Yellowknife or the northern portion of BC (or indeed the northern portion of any Canadian province) have.

My parish also streams both our Orthros service (9AM) and the Divine Liturgy (10AM) on YouTube on Sunday morning.

https://www.youtube.com/@StMaryOrthodoxChurch

 

[Malleeboy]

Note that you are posting in the Eastern Orthodox Christian forum, and while we do have a subforum where you can debate us, please do not make posts that presume to instruct us on doctrinal issues in the main forum. As this would be equivalent to me going over to the Adventist subforum and posting a thread there about the importance of attending the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy on Sunday.

I apologize for my error, I thought I had respectfully asked a question, for Father Mark to give an Orthodox response.


I will make sure I create a new thread if I have a clarification question.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

That whole episode by the way strikes me as being a bit Lovecraftian - a library of dangerous heretical texts buried for over a millenium in the Egyptian desert before being inadvertently unearthed by Bedouins (like some eldritch horror) and subsequently recovered, where they have since literally led some people into the jaws of spiritual destruction.

You love Lovecraft too?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Yes that was my understanding. Adam and Eve had unfallen flesh and Christ when he rose benefitted from having glorified flesh, which we will also receive, which will allow us to live without certain constraints imposed by our present fallen condition.

right, and Christ’s flesh after the resurrection is greater than Adam’s prior to the Fall, but it’s the closest we know.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Oh! So the fall actually changed our flesh from being like the flesh of the resurrected Christ to that of our current fallen condition?

flesh closer to the Resurrected Christ, but not exactly the same. but you have the gist.

 

[The Liturgist]

You love Lovecraft too?

Love might be too strong a word, but I definitely enjoy his writings, as somewhat of an enthusiast of literary SF, where his writings occupy a unique place among those of the formative years of the genre. I particularly like SF-Horror since supernatural horror tends to be annoying, and here Lovecraft delivers, serving up nightmares that are not conceptually impossible, and thus are much more unnerving than say a bland conventional horror story about vampirical chainsaw-wielding ghosts haunting an abandoned insane asylum.

 

[The Liturgist]

I apologize for my error, I thought I had respectfully asked a question, for Father Mark to give an Orthodox response.


I will make sure I create a new thread if I have a clarification question.

Forgive me I misread my post. Please ask your question.