Pleasure in marriage

[Light of the East]

I was reading a post in which the writer took issue with a theologian who described sexual pleasure as "a foretaste of heaven." Ultimately, the writer, who is Roman Catholic, stated that sex is for procreation only. He seemed considerably outraged at the idea of sexual pleasure within the context of marriage being a foretaste of heaven.

It seems to me that the Scriptures lend themselves to the idea of the bliss of the marital bed being a foretaste of heaven. Our Lord is called the divine Bridegroom and we are the Bride of Christ. A bride and a groom are looking forward to completing their union in the nuptial bed.

It also seems to me that the Song of Songs has some very erotic language in it which speaks to the union of lovers and has been presented as a metaphor for Christ and his people.

So at the end of all this, My interlocular become smarmy with me and tells me. I should talk to the monks at Mount Athos about and teach them about sexual theology. This would be why I am here to get feedback from those who would understand the Orthodox position better than I do.

I will appreciate all comments on this and any corrections you have for me if i'm wrong in thinking this way.

 

[ArmyMatt]

physical pleasure is a concession in our fallen condition. the union of husband and wife is to go much deeper than that and it won’t be what we experience in the Resurrection.

and sex isn’t merely for procreation, but also to become one with your spouse.

 

[Light of the East]

So are you saying that physical pleasure is not some sort of metaphor for the joy we will experience in union with Christ?

 

[Malleeboy]

Father Matt,

"physical pleasure is a concession in our fallen condition" -

The command to procreate proceeds the fall, Gen 1:28, and becoming "one flesh" is also pre-fall Gen 2:24. I'd agree "one flesh", as in the LXX that has "sarkos", is not just "one body" but deeper than that. However the union of bodies is part of the larger union of the couple. Would love to hear you expound your reasons for "physical pleasure" being "a concession in our fallen condition". Thanks...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Father Matt,

"physical pleasure is a concession in our fallen condition" -

The command to procreate proceeds the fall, Gen 1:28, and becoming "one flesh" is also pre-fall Gen 2:24. I'd agree "one flesh", as in the LXX that has "sarkos", is not just "one body" but deeper than that. However the union of bodies is part of the larger union of the couple. Would love to hear you expound your reasons for "physical pleasure" being "a concession in our fallen condition". Thanks...

as male and female He created them...before the fall. What differentiates a male from a female?

 

[johansen]

Question i have for various folks who fall down this rabbit hole:

Is it sin if you train your mind to transform your sexual pleasure, and desire, into something productive?

Take the rather crude arnold Schwarzenegger video you can find on youtube where he.. half way seriously describes pumping iron is more pleasurable than sex with a woman.

Anyhow, many people have done such, into whatever they want.

 

[ArmyMatt]

So are you saying that physical pleasure is not some sort of metaphor for the joy we will experience in union with Christ?

nope, it leads us to dispassion, which is the real foretaste of the kingdom like Sts Joachim and Anna.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Father Matt,

"physical pleasure is a concession in our fallen condition" -

The command to procreate proceeds the fall, Gen 1:28, and becoming "one flesh" is also pre-fall Gen 2:24. I'd agree "one flesh", as in the LXX that has "sarkos", is not just "one body" but deeper than that. However the union of bodies is part of the larger union of the couple. Would love to hear you expound your reasons for "physical pleasure" being "a concession in our fallen condition". Thanks...

procreation would have been different had we not fallen. the clothing of skin in Genesis wasn’t that God killed an animal and covered Adam and Eve’s nether regions. it’s the course flesh we have now.

so yes, we would still become one flesh, just not in the same way. there was no physical pleasure when Mary conceived Christ, so it would have been more like that.

 

[Dave G.]

God didn't just create procreation between man and woman but heightened physical pleasure to a bond you can feel and see into the eyes of one another, complete with orgasmic energy being released. He could have made procreation any number of ways but chose this, which is pure pleasure with God in the center of it, if the two are equally yoked. In the aftermath we feel closer to one another and with God. And you may have procreated another human being or not. But the experience should be blissful and within marriage..

Some Christians get all hemmed up, have sex twice a year hoping for procreation or they may have sinned. They push off the natural daily attraction that God gave them. Seriously, I've known especially Roman Catholics who live this way. And this can lead to some bazaar behavior, I might add.

 

[Light of the East]

procreation would have been different had we not fallen. the clothing of skin in Genesis wasn’t that God killed an animal and covered Adam and Eve’s nether regions. it’s the coarse flesh we have now.

so yes, we would still become one flesh, just not in the same way. there was no physical pleasure when Mary conceived Christ, so it would have been more like that.

I was kind of stunned to read this reply because this is what the Gnostics say about our flesh. This is why they despise the flesh and deny the Resurrection and say that our skin is no value.

Could you clarify? I am not accusing you of Gnosticism. I am simply confused by your answer.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I was kind of stunned to read this reply because this is what the Gnostics say about our flesh. This is why they despise the flesh and deny the Resurrection and say that our skin is no value.

Could you clarify? I am not accusing you of Gnosticism. I am simply confused by your answer.

Gnostics say that the flesh is bad, even before the fall. I am saying the fallen flesh we have been given, is a concession in our fallen state, given by God, and is therefore good.

 

[abacabb3]

Both sides are extreme on the issue. The scriptures and fathers are clear on this issue.

-sex can be enjoyed in marriage
-yes, birth control methods of any sort are sinful, some worse sins than others
-the ideal is celibacy, chastity, or complete dispassion (saints Joachim and Anna)--realistically the former two are the highest goals that are actually achievable, but in marriage, yes, sex can be enjoyed
-even conservative priests will allow the rhythm method but will not bless it--new Martyr Daniel sysoev even explicitly said such, so we have a saint stating this

 

[Veni]

The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”

 

[The Liturgist]

Father Matt,

"physical pleasure is a concession in our fallen condition" -

The command to procreate proceeds the fall, Gen 1:28, and becoming "one flesh" is also pre-fall Gen 2:24. I'd agree "one flesh", as in the LXX that has "sarkos", is not just "one body" but deeper than that. However the union of bodies is part of the larger union of the couple. Would love to hear you expound your reasons for "physical pleasure" being "a concession in our fallen condition". Thanks...

God didn't just create procreation between man and woman but heightened physical pleasure to a bond you can feel and see into the eyes of one another, complete with orgasmic energy being released. He could have made procreation any number of ways but chose this, which is pure pleasure with God in the center of it, if the two are equally yoked. In the aftermath we feel closer to one another and with God. And you may have procreated another human being or not. But the experience should be blissful and within marriage..

Some Christians get all hemmed up, have sex twice a year hoping for procreation or they may have sinned. They push off the natural daily attraction that God gave them. Seriously, I've known especially Roman Catholics who live this way. And this can lead to some bazaar behavior, I might add.

Note that you are posting in the Eastern Orthodox Christian forum, and while we do have a subforum where you can debate us, please do not make posts that presume to instruct us on doctrinal issues in the main forum. As this would be equivalent to me going over to the Adventist subforum and posting a thread there about the importance of attending the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy on Sunday.

 

[The Liturgist]

Gnostics say that the flesh is bad, even before the fall. I am saying the fallen flesh we have been given, is a concession in our fallen state, given by God, and is therefore good.

Indeed. Also most Gnostic sects regarded procreation as evil. Now many neo-Gnostic churches such as the Ecclesia Gnostica have a disproprortionate number of members who refer to themselves as “trans-sexual.” And also a disturbing interest in the use of tarot cards. Weird stuff. The bishop of the Ecclesia Gnostic is a charming Hungarian gentleman and I have enjoyed conversing with him, and I find myself lamenting that he was led into these strange and occult doctrines probably due to his interest in Jungian psychology. Which is interesting because most people do not realize that Jung was a major occult figure and can be regarded as an heresiarch. He financed the initial translation and publication of the Gnostic texts unearthed at Nag Hammadi.

That whole episode by the way strikes me as being a bit Lovecraftian - a library of dangerous heretical texts buried for over a millenium in the Egyptian desert before being inadvertently unearthed by Bedouins (like some eldritch horror) and subsequently recovered, where they have since literally led some people into the jaws of spiritual destruction. A part of me regrets that the Bedouins burned some of them in lieu of firewood and another part of me regrets they did not burn them all.

 

[Light of the East]

Gnostics say that the flesh is bad, even before the fall. I am saying the fallen flesh we have been given, is a concession in our fallen state, given by God, and is therefore good.

Oh. Okay. So the flesh we were given as a clothing for our spiritual nakedness? (Is that right) is a concession which is good, but in the resurrection, will be perfected. Correct?

 

[Light of the East]

The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”

What does this have to do with the topic at hand.

PLEASE!!! Do not come into a chat and just start throwing verses around. EXPLAIN YOURSELF if you do!!!!

 

[The Liturgist]

What does this have to do with the topic at hand.

PLEASE!!! Do not come into a chat and just start throwing verses around. EXPLAIN YOURSELF if you do!!!!

I believe the member was unaware this is the Eastern Orthodox forum. Usually for me the presence of our friend @ArmyMatt is something of a telltale sign I am in the Orthodox forum since he is conspicuous in his absence from the other forums, which is good since it provides Orthodox members a positive inducement to come to this forum and enjoy a momentary freedom from the awkward experience of having to continually narrate the history of the seven ecumenical councils to various people whose actual knowledge of the early church is much less than what they suppose it to be.

 

[Dave G.]

Note that you are posting in the Eastern Orthodox Christian forum, and while we do have a subforum where you can debate us, please do not make posts that presume to instruct us on doctrinal issues in the main forum. As this would be equivalent to me going over to the Adventist subforum and posting a thread there about the importance of attending the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy on Sunday.

Oh, sorry about that ! I Usually look at what forum I'm posting to but ad.ittedly did not do that. Had I realized it was the Orthodox forum I wouldn't even have replied. Again, sorry about that.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Oh. Okay. So the flesh we were given as a clothing for our spiritual nakedness? (Is that right) is a concession which is good, but in the resurrection, will be perfected. Correct?

yes, and to prevent us from eating of the Tree of Life, and be stuck eternally in our fallen condition (imagine having cancer forever).