Please...Tell Me What Tribulation Is!

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Hal A Peno said:

Who are they? Most agree the passage includes the destruction of the temple, but if some accept Mathew 24 all happened in AD 70, they get a few handfuls of verses wrong. Preterism, gets about 1,000 verse wrong. See the difference?

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Dispensationalists non futurist interpretations of parts of Matthew 24

Dispensationalists have debated whether these signs reported in Matthew 24 refer to the period of the Church or to the period of the Tribulation, also known as the seventieth week of Daniel. Therefore, there are, basically, two groups:
(1) those who understand that some of these signals relate to the time of the Church;
(2) those who understand that all signs refer to the time of the Tribulation.
The Fulfillment of Matthew 24:4-31 in Dispensational Tradition. – Integrative Dispensationalism Research Center

In his commentary on Matthew, John Nelson Darby understand that verses 4-14 will be fulfilled during the period of the testimony of the disciples (the period when the apostles remained), which encompasses the period of church.

Cyrus I. Scofield has a double vision. For him, the signs referred to Tribulation events. However, they also have an interpretation for the present age (age of the Church).

Lewis S. Chafer had a similar view of Scofield’s. Some signs apply to this era or the era of the Church.. For him the present era will be marked by signs that are described through verse 8. Therefore, in his view, the signs of the Tribulation period are presented in verses 9-26.

The view Chafer was followed by dispensational theologian H. A. Ironside who understood que verses 4-8 “give general characteristics of the age, and that verses 9–14 emphasize the particular signs of the end of the age.”

The theologian John Walvoord, following a similar view of Chafer and Ironside.

This line of thinking was also advocated by the dispensationalist theologian James F. Rand.

Larry Pettegrew says that the events described in verses 4-14 would typify the era from the time of the Lord’s prophecy up to the middle of the seven-year tribulation.

Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum says that verses 4-6 refer to common events throughout the church age; verses 7-8, to events that will mark the end of the church age; verses 9-14, to the first half of the Tribulation and verses 15-26 speaks of the second half of Tribulation.

John Philips understands that verses 4-14 refer to this age (Church age) and relate to the time of the Gentiles. From verse 15, Jesus speaks specifically to the Jews of the Tribulation Period. For this reason, in his commentary, he seeks to show that, to some extent, we are seeing to increase the number and intensity of the signs described in verses 4-14.

Leon Morris, Matthew, Pillar New Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1992), 593-608.

The traditional preterist-futurist view includes:

David L. Turner, “Matthew 24”;

Wilkins, Matthew, 778-91;

Glasscock, Matthew, 468;

John D. Grassmick, “Mark,” in The Bible Knowledge Commentary: New Testament Edition, ed. John F. Walvoord and Roy B. Zuck (Wheaton, IL: Victor, 1983), 169-70. C.

Marvin Pate, “A Progressive Dispensationalist View of Revelation,” in Four Views on the Book of Revelation(Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1998), 135, saw the hermeneutical key for progressive dispensational interpretation of New Testament prophecy to be an “already/not yet” eschatological tension. For Pate, both Revelation 6—18 and parallel events in the Olivet Discourse were partially fulfilled in AD 70 yet have their ultimate fulfillment in the future.

But not Darrell L. Bock, Luke 9:51-24:53, Baker Exegetical Commentary (Grand Rapids: Baker BookHouse, 1996), 1675-77, carefully differentiated between the account in Luke 21:20-24 which describes Jerusalem’s fall and the account in Matthew 24:15-22 which looks at the end-time and speaks of consummation. He took a futurist view on this section in Matthew.

Hal A Peno said:

Who are they? Most agree the passage includes the destruction of the temple, but if some accept Mathew 24 all happened in AD 70, they get a few handfuls of verses wrong. Preterism, gets about 1,000 verse wrong. See the difference?

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Nelson on Dispensationalists interpreting Matthew 24
The following is by a dispensationalist and according to his education ought to be an expert on dispensationalism. The article was published in the Journal of Dispensational
Theology: Volume 11, Number 33 (August 2007), pp. 49 ff
The URL follows:
https://www.tyndale.edu/wp-content/uploads/JODT-Vol11-No33-Aug07.pdf

Title: Three Critical Exegetical Issues in Matthew 24 –
A Dispensational Interpretation By Neil D. Nelson Jr.
(selections edited for info on differences among dispensationalist concerning the interpretations of Matthew 24)
Professor of Greek and New Testament, Calvary Theological Seminary –
A dispensationalist institution
Dr. Nelson’s has two graduate degrees from Dallas Theological Seminary –
A dispensationalist institution

The author of this article does not mean to imply that dispensational interpretations of the discourse are monolithic. There is some variation in dispensational interpretation of these issues. Indeed, concerning the difficult problem of the meaning of Matthew 24:34 (”Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place”), several dispensationalists have changed their views after continued study.

Few dispensational writers on an academic level today continue to hold that “this generation” refers to Israel as a nation. However, such an interpretation had been a popular view decades ago.

Futurist interpreters, while differing as to whether Matthew 24:4-14 refers to the interadvent age, or wholly or partly to a future “great tribulation” period immediately before the end,9 assign all of 24:15-41 to the future. There are two types of mediating positions by dispensationalist, the traditional and the revised preterist-futurist positions (a dispensationalist position).

The traditional preterist-futurist position (a dispensationalist position) understands 24:15-26 as a double reference” prophecy referring in a perspective common to biblical prophecy in the near view to the events of AD 70 and in the far view to the end of the age.10

The revised preterist-futurist view of Carson sees AD 70 as the subject of Matthew 24:15-21 and the church age being addressed in 24:22-28.11 The futurist interpretation of Matthew 24:15-28, the view of most dispensational interpreters, best explains this important section of Jesus’ sermon. (Note: Nelson in this statement agrees that most but not all dispensationalist interpret Matthew 24:15-28with a futurist perspective.



Footnotes: (The footnotes provide additional information of the differences in how dispensationalist interpret Matthew 24)

09.
John F. Walvoord, Matthew: Thy Kingdom Come (Chicgo: Moody Press, 1974; reprint, Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1998), 183, understood Matthew 24:4-14 as a unit, describing the general characteristics of the age leading to the end. He wrote: “In general, these signs have been at least partly fulfilled in the present age and have characterized the period between the first and the second coming of Christ. They should be understood as general signs rather than specific signs that the end is near” (183-84).

He did believe these general inter-advent difficulties will be “fulfilled in an intensified form as the age moves on to its conclusion.” Walvoord is probably “the greatest defender of the pretribulation rapture in [the twentieth] century” (from the dedication in Thomas Ice and Timothy Demy, gen. eds.,

When the Trumpet Sounds [Eugene, OR: Harvest House, 1995], 3). Other dispensationalist writers who hold this view include Wilkins, Matthew, 772-77; David K. Lowery, “A Theology of Matthew,” in A Biblical Theology of the New Testament, ed. Roy Zuck (Chicago: Moody Press, 1994), 60; Joel F. Williams, “Mark,” in The Bible Knowledge Key Word Study: The Gospels (Colorado Springs: Cook, 2002), 158 [concerning the Markan parallel to these verses]; Ed Glasscock, Matthew (Chicago: Moody Press, 1997), 461-97; and Nelson, “Exegesis of Matthew 24,” 191-94. C. I. Scofield, Scofield Reference Bible(New York: Oxford University Press, 1909), 1033, held that 24:4-14 applies to the church age and to the end of the age. Louis Sperry Chafer, Systematic Theology, 8 vols. (Dallas: Dallas Seminary Press, 1947), 5:120-21, believed that 24:4-8 describes events of the present church age and 24:9-26 describes the tribulation period. Dispensationalists who place the events of Matthew 24:4-14 exclusively in an end times tribulation period yet future include: J. Dwight Pentecost, Things to Come (Findlay, OH: Dunham Books, 1958), 277; Paul P. Enns, “Olivet Discourse,” in Dictionary of Premillennial Theology, gen. ed. Mal Couch (Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1996), 287; and, Paul N. Benware, Understanding End Times Prophecy(Chicago: Moody Press, 1995), 317-20.

10
Adherents of this view include George Eldon Ladd, The Presence of the Future (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974), 309-11 (Ladd was not a dispensationalist but presented the inaugurated eschatology and "futuristic post-tribulationism); and Leon Morris, Matthew, Pillar New Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1992), 593-608. Thomas Ice, “Back to the Future,” in When the Trumpet Sounds, 13, argued that to be a pretribulationist, one must be a futurist. However, several dispensational interpreters hold to a traditional preterist-futurist view including David L. Turner, “Matthew 24”; Wilkins, Matthew, 778-91; Glasscock, Matthew, 468; and John D. Grassmick, “Mark,” in The Bible Knowledge Commentary: New Testament Edition, ed. John F. Walvoord and Roy B. Zuck (Wheaton, IL: Victor, 1983), 169-70. C. Marvin Pate, “A Progressive Dispensationalist View of Revelation,” in Four Views on the Book of Revelation(Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1998), 135, saw the hermeneutical key for progressive dispensational interpretation of New Testament prophecy to be an “already/not yet” eschatological tension. For Pate, both Revelation 6—18 and parallel events in the Olivet Discourse were partially fulfilled in AD 70 yet have their ultimate fulfillment in the future. Darrell L. Bock, Luke 9:51-24:53, Baker Exegetical Commentary (Grand Rapids: Baker BookHouse, 1996), 1675-77, carefully differentiated betweenthe account in Luke 21:20-24 which describes Jerusalem’s fall and the account in Matthew 24:15-22 which looks at the end-time and speaks of consummation. He took a futurist view on this section in Matthew.

11
Carson, “Matthew,” 499-504.

darth

dtg

Hal A Peno said:

TOS said,


I read your copy and paste articles, maybe you can help me identify those who believe the above.

Copy and paste. It can make the most eneducated person LOOK like they know what they're talking about. So take the time, show me who these people are that fill the top slot.

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Post #62 provides some details as to the exact positions of renowned dispensationalist.

Post #63 The article by a dispensationalist, New Testament seminary professor, Dr. Neil D. Nelson Jr., was published in the Journal of Dispensational Theology. It is he who references “When the Trumpet Sounds” and the 12 other authors who hold this view. Those being:
Wilkins,
David K. Lowery,
Roy Zuck,
Joel F. Williams,
Ed Glasscock,
Nelson,
C. I. Scofield,
Louis Sperry Chafer,
J. Dwight Pentecost,
Paul P. Enns,
Mal Couch,
Paul N. Benware.

If you have rejected the position held by all of these scholars who were referenced as agreeing with “When the Trumpet Sounds”, why are you asking about positions held by dispensationalist? From your reply, their positions must not matter to you since you disposed of the book "When the Trumpets Sound."

Because you seem to wish to express your beliefs, nothing I have posted should be of any interest to you. Rather than contending with the position of others why not present a precisely worded article on your belief about the tribulation and leave out the “bunch of balony,” but if you choose to use it, the word is "bolonga" or the variant "baloney."

This forum has wisely provided a section for your view. It may be found under Theology (Christians Only) / General Theology / Dispensationalism. Making your points under this topic will find either acceptance or better informed and interested dispensationalist for contention.
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P.S. Yes, the old scribe is a cut and paste copier. Copying is what scribes do.
Please note the URL and the note (selections edited for info on differences among dispensationalist concerning the interpretations of Matthew 24) - Post #63.
This old scribe prefers positions be supported by experts in their field rather than opinions of hot peppers (sic). After all, do you wish to know the opinions of a scribe without credentials? At least, one can claim peppers come in containers with labels. All the materials on dispensationalism are copied from recognized dispensationalist scholars and are not the composition of the old scribe.

gfjm

Hal A Peno said:

THIS HAS TURNED INTO AN UNFRUITFUL ARGUMENT. MOST OF THE PEOPLE YOU QUOTE do not AGREE WITH YOUR ORIGINAL POST...

This has become unfruitful. You're bent on post after post trying to say these people agree with your initial statement AND THEY DON'T!

You said,


Most of the people you've quoted disagree with that.

Believing the works of others is what misleads millions these days. I try to saty away from the big shots. They've become an abomination and mislead millions.

Preterism, it's the single most repulsive abomination to God Almighty.

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From all of the evidence, it appears that you must be an halapenoist.

Have you established an institution of higher indoctrination that awards credentials in halapenoism?

drthysdt

Questore said:

I have studied the Scriptures for decades. I have entertained every possible consideration of when Yeshua come for his Bride.

In every case, in every discussion, Believers speak about a time when prophecy indicates the people of G-d being caught up to meet Yeshua in the air, as stated in Matthew 24.

Each of them describes a Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Post-Trib, Pan-Trib reference point. Each argues vehemently for their particular view in relation to the final 7 years of Daniel's prophecy. And yet, Yeshua states quite clearly what will happen, and in what order.

So, with all the positions anyone can take in regard to the Day of Jacob's Trouble, which occurs at the end of the final 7 Years of the prophecy in Daniel, what is the Tribulation that is spoken of? What makes it Tribulation? For it seems to me that the definition one uses of Tribulation is paramount in your Eschatological position, and what caused that Tribulation.

Matthew 24:2-31 (KJV)
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

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The tribulation is a seven year period that was supposed to happen immediately following the resurrection. When the Messiah was rejected it was put on indefinite hold. The term in the Greek is usually translated persecution but it can also me trouble or wrath. In order to understand the tribulation you have to realize there are three judgments that occur, the seals at the beginning, trumpets in the middle and vials right at the end.

zfgj

Hal A Peno said:

The seals aren't judgments. What you're saying is that this is God's judgment???....

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Yes, but let me explain. Before God judges he reveals sin, specifically this is a revelation of the man of sin, aka the Antichrist. The four horsemen are actually the same guy, the fifth seal are the martyrs killed in the wake of his bloody infamous rampage. The sixth seal is a final climactic battle that concludes with the armies of the Antichrist and pretty much every one else underground hiding from the fallout of a nuclear exchange. They know by now that this is judgment from God because the martyrs have been telling them this was prophesied.

...and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another

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The restrainer will continue to restrain until he be taken out of the way. God is letting evil out, human malevolence is contained now but in the tribulation it will be brought out.

And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

God judges us once at the end of tribulation, and he sends judgment upon the followers of the beast beginning in Revelation 9 through the vials.

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With the end of the Trumpets God's kingdom is established upon the earth. That will happen at the sounding of the seventh chapter in the eleventh chapter when the testimony of the two witnesses is concluded in Jerusalem. This is half way through the tribulation but the armies of the Antichrist have survived and they appear to be having a big party for the second half of the tribulation. Even after the vials of wrath, they are still standing but when Christ returns it's over in an instant.

srg

Hal A Peno said:

The seals are events that lead up to the revelation of the man of sin. The four horsemen are just that. Four different end-time people who bring upon mankind four different events and their results. They are not God's judgment, or the man of sin. Hewever, God does use the man of sin in the end to bring Israel back to Him, but that's not the purpose of the seals.

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I think they are judgment in the sense that God just brings it out. At this time Israel is in the eye of the storm listening to the two witnesses and wishing they would just stop. During the trumpet blasts it finally sets in that this covenant of death was a mistake.