PLEASE! lets settle the issue,the final demon thread!

[STRICTLY SCRIPTURE]

If it can't be backed in scripture then it's not of God - sorry!

I agree.

 

[STRICTLY SCRIPTURE]

So my dear brother, you are hanging your "Mickey Mouse CLub Badge" on the one-liner "wicked generation"? I wonder what the Scribes and Pharisees thought after HE said that? I guess their unbelief and hardness of heart was what caused them to maliciously attack our Lord Jesus Christ. And I guess it was the demons in them, and after all they are were GOD's CHILDREN as well!

I did notice that it wasn't recorded in Luke 11:24-26!

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

Pardon me elijah2.I read your post and am left with the assumption that you think the pharisees we believers.Is that correct?

 

[Alpine]

Pardon me elijah2.I read your post and am left with the assumption that you think the pharisees we believers.Is that correct?

Actually some pharisee's were believers.

 

[STRICTLY SCRIPTURE]

Actually some pharisee's were believers.

That is correct.However in Luke 11 as you read on a bit more,those particular pharisees were not.Thats when the rebukes came to them.The woe to you verses.

 

[EternalSummer]

Armchair would imply lack of experience

Good answer. Guess we know now who's issuing the ARMCHAIR teachings (those with no experience) and who isn't!

 

[EternalSummer]

As I sit at my scritpural armchair,and read the posts...

I scratch my head...an wonder...

Why cant those that believe in this theory,at least show humility and say... Your right brother pinetree,there is not a DROP of scritural evidence in the very bible we quote alot on other topics,that shows a spirit filled believer can be inhabited,entered,or possessed.

And yes brother pinetree,all the verses you posted,were the antithesis of that.

Very well.

You're right, Brother Pinetree. There is not one DROP of scriptural evidence that shows a Christian can NEVER come under the power of a demon.

But there are plenty of wonderful scriptures about the ultimate power of God available in the eternal life of faith through Jesus Christ, which those taken captive could definitely latch onto as a means of both finding hope for deliverance from captivity and lighting their way out of captivity. So you have done a very good work here, Brother, to share these things even though you seem to think keys are for collecting instead of for unlocking locks.

In fairness, it is absolutely true a lot of nonsense gets flown about by modern "deliverance ministries". How about we just simplify things and break it down. If someone has demons, they don't need us quibbling over whether they ever had Christ and lost Him, or never knew Him, or whether we can or canNOT prove a theological case for their condition. They need prayer, fasting, and casting the demons out. Christ has called and empowered us to do all three. How about we stop arguing who shall be the greatest among us (who shall be viewed as having the correctest theories) and just get on with business.

Wow, it's late. I need to get to bed!

 

[pinetree]

Seems like the all knowing potificaters,have overlooked this question..

Question for the pro inhabitaion side of the isle...

If you believe we can be entered,possessed,or inhabited..

What happens to the holy Spirit that abides in us?

Does the Spirit flee?

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Ya know...

With all these offshoot demon threads,subthreads,covert threads...

Can we just settle the issue HERE!

It seems that those who say a Spirit filled believer,can be possessed,or inhabited,never offer a drop of scripture to prove this unwritten,unscriptural teaching/doctrine.

Usually we hear things like.."I see spirits":o from the proponents..

That puts the issue into a purely personal subjective experience,not a scriptural one..

The proponents when asked to provide scripture,try a political tactict of asking ..

"sow me where it says a Christian cant have a demon?"

To that I would say..

The absence of the topic in scripture,is proof enough!

If God wanted us to know about it,it would be in the bible,like the infilling of the Holy Spirit is...

In fact,I will lead the way,and post scripture,,that show who we are in Christ,his children,not the devils!

And ask that any others that post,would please in their post,show how it pertains to a Spirit filled believer!



Luke 10:19
I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you


1 John 4:4
You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
15When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

We were crucified with Christ,so this shows that the power of the cross is for us too.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is called the baptism of the Holy Spirt..

We are now empowered..!

We have power,not spirits of evil..

2 Corinthians 4:7
But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.


2 Corinthians 10:4
The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.

Here also..

Acts 1:8
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

Check this out,Peter was changed,by the baptism.

Acts 4:8
Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: "Rulers and elders of the people! 9If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed,


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Colossians 1:13
For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,


1 Peter 2:9
But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

If the proponents of the unseen doctrine,say this is true,then the burden of proof is on them..

I think the lack of scriptural proof,is the best proof of all,the fact that it is NOT mentioned,says more than anything..

Why after all,would the bible talk about that which does NOT exist?



Why didn't paul say this was evidence of a spirit,he did not,he said it was the awful flesh!

Galatians 5:19-20

19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are:immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20idolatry,sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,

Colossians 3:5
Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

kingdom of God is in us..

Luke 17:21
nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."

Can it be divided?


24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub,[d] the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."
25Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
We are temples of the Holy Spirit,not a temple of the devil..

We are one spirit with the Lord,not a divided temple..

1 Corinthians 3:16
Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?
1 Corinthians 3:17
If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.
reading this verse,one must ask..
1 Corinthians 6:17
But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How can spirits live in a saint,who has Jesus in them?

look how the spirits flee,when Jesus was there.. same Jesus in us now!

Matthew 8:32
He said to them, "Go!" So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Personally,I think it is the flesh run amuck!

Galatians 5:19-20

19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are:immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20idolatry,sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,

Colossians 3:5
Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.

Hey Pine . . . Don't know why . . . but Paul states that Christians CAN have a demon w/in them . . . as one was IN HIM. 2 Cor 12:7 in the Greek is an ANGEL OF SATAN. Pretty clear . . . There is a good drop!

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Seems like the all knowing potificaters,have overlooked this question..

Question for the pro inhabitaion side of the isle...

If you believe we can be entered,possessed,or inhabited..

What happens to the holy Spirit that abides in us?

Does the Spirit flee?

Nope . . . just as He does not flee the evil of resident residual sin.

 

[SonofGOD727]

A true christian would be protected from being possessed.

 

[pinetree]

Hey Pine . . . Don't know why . . . but Paul states that Christians CAN have a demon w/in them . . . as one was IN HIM. 2 Cor 12:7 in the Greek is an ANGEL OF SATAN. Pretty clear . . . There is a good drop!

So let me get this clear..

You are saying Paul was either..possessed or inhabited?

Because if you are saying that,,lol,that is the first time I have ever heard that in almost 25 years.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

So let me get this clear..

You are saying Paul was either..possessed or inhabited?

Because if you are saying that,,lol,that is the first time I have ever heard that in almost 25 years.

1st "possession" is a BAD rendition of the Grk. daimonizomai . . . it is simply "to have a demon" or be "demonized." Possession connotes ownership . . . and I don't think even the Gadarene Demoniac was "possessed" as he came to Christ and fell at His feet . . . demons, if they were in complete ownership, would have made him flee. Then when they entered the swine . . . they could not even control the pigs who then commited suicide

2nd, yes Paul was inhabited. Exegetically it is what it is . . . an angel of Satan (seen in Rev as the term for the horde of Satan's army) was in his "flesh" . . . one of two things . . . either his fallen nature . . . which would have been some sort of sinful tendency . . . or his body . . . which would have been an ailment of some sort. EITHER WAY . . . PAUL WRITES RATHER CLEARLY THAT THERE IS A DEMON IN HIM.

Unless someone can come up with a different rendition of aggelos satana . . . the Greek is QUITE clear.

7και τη υπερβολη των αποκαλυψεων διο ινα μη υπεραιρωμαι εδοθη μοι σκολοψ τη σαρκι αγγελος σατανα ινα με κολαφιζη ινα μη υπεραιρωμαι

 

[pinetree]

1st "possession" is a BAD rendition of the Grk. daimonizomai . . . it is simply "to have a demon" or be "demonized." Possession connotes ownership . . . and I don't think even the Gadarene Demoniac was "possessed" as he came to Christ and fell at His feet . . . demons, if they were in complete ownership, would have made him flee. Then when they entered the swine . . . they could not even control the pigs who then commited suicide

2nd, yes Paul was inhabited. Exegetically it is what it is . . . an angel of Satan (seen in Rev as the term for the horde of Satan's army) was in his "flesh" . . . one of two things . . . either his fallen nature . . . which would have been some sort of sinful tendency . . . or his body . . . which would have been an ailment of some sort. EITHER WAY . . . PAUL WRITES RATHER CLEARLY THAT THERE IS A DEMON IN HIM.

Unless someone can come up with a different rendition of aggelos satana . . . the Greek is QUITE clear.

7και τη υπερβολη των αποκαλυψεων διο ινα μη υπεραιρωμαι εδοθη μοι σκολοψ τη σαρκι αγγελος σατανα ινα με κολαφιζη ινα μη υπεραιρωμαι

Well,are you saying it was his sinful fallen nature,that he received grace for..?

Which one?

Wouldnt that be a more logical answer,in light of how Paul talks of grace as the answer to flesh alot.

Also,if the thorn was from afflictions and such,sure,the thorn was in his flesh...allowed by God.

Are we to think the thorn was an actual evil spirit in Paul?

God allowed Paul to be inhabited?

I think the thorn was the effects of the messenger,but not the actual messenger himself somehow living in Paul.

It is not clear that Paul said there is a demon in him,only the effects of an attack,or a buffer..a thumbtack was the result of afflictions,ailments,persecutions,etc,but not an actual demon living in Paul.

Again,as I see you have read all the verses I posted,that are the antitheses of Christian inhabitation,why would it be that Paul was?

1 Thessalonians 5:23
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[pinetree]

Colossians 1:24
[ Paul's Labor for the Church ] Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

The afflictions,and the results, is what the thorn was,delivered by the messenger,now in his body.
Paul was not filling himself up with spirits!

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Well,are you saying it was his sinful fallen nature,that he received grace for..?

Which one?

Wouldnt that be a more logical answer,in light of how Paul talks of grace as the answer to flesh alot.

Also,if the thorn was from afflictions and such,sure,the thorn was in his flesh...allowed by God.

Are we to think the thorn was an actual evil spirit in Paul?

God allowed Paul to be inhabited?

I think the thorn was the effects of the messenger,but not the actual messenger himself somehow living in Paul.

It is not clear that Paul said there is a demon in him,only the effects of an attack,or a buffer..a thumbtack was the result of afflictions,ailments,persecutions,etc,but not an actual demon living in Paul.

Again,as I see you have read all the verses I posted,that are the antitheses of Christian inhabitation,why would it be that Paul was?

1 Thessalonians 5:23
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Well the thorn IS the messenger . . . it is the antecedant for angel of Satan. There is no getting around it.

At this point I don't think it matters if it is in his fleshly nature or a physical ailment . . . BOTH are IN him regardless.

Are we to think the thorn was an actual evil spirit in Paul?

God allowed Paul to be inhabited?

Exactly. This is the CLEAR exegetical meaning of the text.

Same thing happened to me, PERSONALLY, a year ago. But in my case God wrought deliverance. He did not concede it to abide.

I think the thorn was the effects of the messenger,but not the actual messenger himself somehow living in Paul.

Unfortunately that is not supported by the Greek . . . the thorn IS the messanger. What is helpful is that thorns in the flesh are more mere annoyance . . . it did not rule him.

It is not clear that Paul said there is a demon in him

Sorry pine . . . but that is EXACTLY what the text says.

Again,as I see you have read all the verses I posted,that are the antitheses of Christian inhabitation,why would it be that Paul was?

I don't think your verses support this . . .

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Colossians 1:24
[ Paul's Labor for the Church ] Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

The afflictions,and the results, is what the thorn was,delivered by the messenger,now in his body.
Paul was not filling himself up with spirits!

Hardly.

Completely different context. Sorry. Irrelevant.

 

[pinetree]

Hardly.

Completely different context. Sorry. Irrelevant.

Here is the thorn..

2 Corinthians 11:30
If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.


2 Corinthians 12:5
Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.


2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.


2 Corinthians 12:10
Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2 Timothy 3:11
persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them.

Paul had obviously been receiving wounds,sickness etc,in his flesh,that is the thorn,not a demon inhabiting him.


23Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers. 27I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. 29Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn?

Then he says,he will boast of his weaknesses..

Are you with me so far bro..?

Not above where it says weak,in red

30If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. 31The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying. 32In Damascus the governor under King Aretas had the city of the Damascenes guarded in order to arrest me. 33But I was lowered in a basket from a window in the wall and slipped through his hands.

Then in chapter 12,he goes on to tell us that the thorn was his weaknesses,which he said was from hardships,persecutions,etc.(he did not say a demon in him)

7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Colossians 1:24
[ Paul's Labor for the Church ] Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

I think this verse is in context,it shows what Paul was talking about.
As well as the verses above..

He tells us what he was filling up in his flesh..afflictions,infirmities,etc,not demons.

You are misunderstanding one verse, to suit your belief,yet I clearly show what the man with the thorn said what it was..

Thank you.

Ps.Paul boasted in his weakness..
Would he boast about having a demon in him?

 

[pinetree]

Here are more thoughts from the man with the thorn..

You have to go by the whole of his writings...

Again,Paul obviously speaks of weakness....

The weakness was the thorn.

2 Corinthians4:7-12
But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us. 8We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; 9persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed. 10We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. 11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that his life may be revealed in our mortal body. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

 

[pinetree]

A true christian would be protected from being possessed.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Here is the thorn..

2 Corinthians 11:30
If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.


2 Corinthians 12:5
Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.


2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.


2 Corinthians 12:10
Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2 Timothy 3:11
persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them.

Paul had obviously been receiving wounds,sickness etc,in his flesh,that is the thorn,not a demon inhabiting him.


23Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers. 27I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. 29Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn?

Then he says,he will boast of his weaknesses..

Are you with me so far bro..?

Not above where it says weak,in red

30If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. 31The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying. 32In Damascus the governor under King Aretas had the city of the Damascenes guarded in order to arrest me. 33But I was lowered in a basket from a window in the wall and slipped through his hands.

Then in chapter 12,he goes on to tell us that the thorn was his weaknesses,which he said was from hardships,persecutions,etc.(he did not say a demon in him)

7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Colossians 1:24
[ Paul's Labor for the Church ] Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

I think this verse is in context,it shows what Paul was talking about.
As well as the verses above..

He tells us what he was filling up in his flesh..afflictions,infirmities,etc,not demons.

You are misunderstanding one verse, to suit your belief,yet I clearly show what the man with the thorn said what it was..

Thank you.

Ps.Paul boasted in his weakness..
Would he boast about having a demon in him?

I am sorry Pine . . . you can string together all the verses that you want. CONTEXT determines meaning. Infirmities is HARDLY a peculiar term.

The context says that the thorn "skolops" IS the angel of Satan. There is NO getting around it.

Paul boasted NOT in the demon . . . but in the grace of God to preserve him in ANY and ALL forms of weakness . . . whether it be from a demonic issue or strictly flesh or outer persecution. The boasting is in the GRACE OF GOD.

Stay IN the context . . . Paul says CLEARLY what it is . . . w/o having to bounce around.

Be exegetically driven dear brother . . . not philosophically driven. Let the text speak for itself.

Your construal of "weaknesses" is jumping the gun. Paul is deriving a general PRINCIPLE from a particular situation. The situation was the allowance of a demonic torment . . . which resulted in weakness. From this Paul derrives that not only is God's grace sufficient in THIS situation . . . but in ANY and ALL forms of weakness . . . which he then enumerates.

You must remember that in Greek the first stated thought DRIVES the arguement. You have inverted this. There is really no way around it bro . . . I am sorry. No amount of manuevering will change the grammar and such . . . Paul states quite clearly what he thought that it was.