PLEASE! lets settle the issue,the final demon thread!

[pinetree]

2 Thessalonians 3:3

3But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen and protect you from the evil one.

 

[EternalSummer]

Seems like alot of people on theses demon threads ,know more about the schemes of the devil,than who they are in Christ!

I don't think that's either a fair or an accurate assessment.

It is generally when people run out of confidence in their own point of view that they have to take to trying to run down others'. If your view of things is the correct one, Pinetree, then it should be sufficient for you to uphold it and present it and let it speak for itself on its own merits. Tactics such as putting down those who hold a different view as being "confusing" or "unscriptural" or "devil/sin-focused" or "not knowing who they are in Christ" is just dirty pseudo-political mudslinging in my book and should not be engaged in by Christians against one another.

If we must "fight" over ideas, let's fight clean, fair and noble, like sons of the One True God that we are. Putdowns and mischaracterizations are carnal weapons, and if the Bible says the weapons of our warfare (i.e. against darkness) should not be carnal then how much MORE should our training weapons of "iron sharpening iron" not be so!

The scripture states clearly that "the wrath of man does NOT work the righteousness of God." (James 1:20). When we leave off from sound reasoning of our views and go for shots below the belt, we really do one another a grave disservice. And more to the point, we cause our own position to look too weak to stand when we resort to that. Don't you agree?

Let's agree to have a clean "scrap" in this ring, OK? Ideas against ideas, and let things stand or fall on their own merits. Let's not start attacking one another or pretending that holding a view we disagree with means someone else is "less than" (or less a Christian or less a child of God than) ourselves.

Peace out bro.

 

[pinetree]

I don't think that's either a fair or an accurate assessment.

It is generally when people run out of confidence in their own point of view that they have to take to trying to run down others'. If your view of things is the correct one, Pinetree, then it should be sufficient for you to uphold it and present it and let it speak for itself on its own merits. Tactics such as putting down those who hold a different view as being "confusing" or "unscriptural" or "devil/sin-focused" or "not knowing who they are in Christ" is just dirty pseudo-political mudslinging in my book and should not be engaged in by Christians against one another.

If we must "fight" over ideas, let's fight clean, fair and noble, like sons of the One True God that we are. Putdowns and mischaracterizations are carnal weapons, and if the Bible says the weapons of our warfare (i.e. against darkness) should not be carnal then how much MORE should our training weapons of "iron sharpening iron" not be so!

The scripture states clearly that "the wrath of man does NOT work the righteousness of God." (James 1:20). When we leave off from sound reasoning of our views and go for shots below the belt, we really do one another a grave disservice. And more to the point, we cause our own position to look too weak to stand when we resort to that. Don't you agree?

Let's agree to have a clean "scrap" in this ring, OK? Ideas against ideas, and let things stand or fall on their own merits. Let's not start attacking one another or pretending that holding a view we disagree with means someone else is "less than" (or less a Christian or less a child of God than) ourselves.

Peace out bro.

It is a fact..

On all theses threads,the pro inhabitation side,is fixed on the workings of the devil..:o

My posts are fixed on who we are in Christ..

I am peaced out,resting in Gods ample provision,knowing who I am.

 

[EternalSummer]

If Jesus the Christ has set us free we are free indeed. It either is or it isn't true. If God owns us now, He would not allow His 'property' to be in-dwelled by the likes of a demon. They have no authority to be there. Where would they get the authority from? God?

What about Job? The devil got permission from God -- literally -- to wreak havoc in every area of his life and even to afflict him personally and directly with sickness. The one restriction God placed on Satan was simply this: "do not take his life." Ironic, eh? The devil was not allowed to END Job's suffering, only expand it as far as he wanted to go without bringing him the ultimate relief of the grave. And Job himself cried out for that relief going through all this, because Job believed God Himself had wronged him. Here he had always obeyed God and done what is upright and God Himself had "punished" him (according to the OT Israelite theology of that time) and treated him as if he had been a sinner, an idol-worshiper, a rebellious and disobedient evildoer. No wonder the poor man wanted to die!!

The book of Job exists for a reason. And in fact, every single argument made on these threads against the modern day Jobs -- Christians who end up afflicted through no fault of their own and despite doing everything they know how to do to serve God -- shows up in the book of Job as the arguments Job's so-called "friends" throw at HIM trying to "straighten out" his thinking. But in the end, Job gets vindicated, and God Himself tells those others outright that they have not spoken of Him what is right like His servant Job has.

Make of that what you will. I think it encompasses AND answers this entire situation quite perfectly in every regard.

 

[pinetree]

Well I guess as the thread unfolds...

The reality is,there is no evidence in the bible of inhabitation,possession,or "entry"
For the spirit filled believer..
Warfare,flesh,yes,but that is it..

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny
If Jesus the Christ has set us free we are free indeed. It either is or it isn't true. If God owns us now, He would not allow His 'property' to be in-dwelled by the likes of a demon. They have no authority to be there. Where would they get the authority from? God?

What about Job? The devil got permission from God -- literally -- to wreak havoc in every area of his life and even to afflict him personally and directly with sickness. The one restriction God placed on Satan was simply this: "do not take his life." Ironic, eh? The devil was not allowed to END Job's suffering, only expand it as far as he wanted to go without bringing him the ultimate relief of the grave. And Job himself cried out for that relief going through all this, because Job believed God Himself had wronged him. Here he had always obeyed God and done what is upright and God Himself had "punished" him (according to the OT Israelite theology of that time) and treated him as if he had been a sinner, an idol-worshiper, a rebellious and disobedient evildoer. No wonder the poor man wanted to die!!

The book of Job exists for a reason. And in fact, every single argument made on these threads against the modern day Jobs -- Christians who end up afflicted through no fault of their own and despite doing everything they know how to do to serve God -- shows up in the book of Job as the arguments Job's so-called "friends" throw at HIM trying to "straighten out" his thinking. But in the end, Job gets vindicated, and God Himself tells those others outright that they have not spoken of Him what is right like His servant Job has.

Make of that what you will. I think it encompasses AND answers this entire situation quite perfectly in every regard.

no. it doesn't. Job was not demon-possessed. God allowed satan to afflict him. The sickness was part of the affliction. No, Job did not believe God wronged him. That's why in the end, God says that Job was righteous, and restored to Job more than was taken away. Job never lost fellowship with God during the trials and afflictions...he continued to converse with God. He never lost sight of God and God's getting him through it. He was never demon-possessed, but remained God's property. Essentially, what God did was allow satan permission to afflict His servant, not inhabit him.

 

[Svt4Him]

It is a fact..

On all theses threads,the pro inhabitation side,is fixed on the workings of the devil..:o

My posts are fixed on who we are in Christ..

I am peaced out,resting in Gods ample provision,knowing who I am.

Oh, so it doesn't include you, only those who disagree with you.

Funny how that works.


Who do we cast demons out of?

 

[Tenebrae]

It is a fact..

On all theses threads,the pro inhabitation side,is fixed on the workings of the devil..:o

My posts are fixed on who we are in Christ..

I am peaced out,resting in Gods ample provision,knowing who I am.

Very broad and incorrect generalisation there though.

Pro inhabbitation side with the POV about the devil which can be summarised in one sentence "God won, Satan lost"

Satans entire arsenal is based on lies theres not much more to know than that.

 

[EternalSummer]

no. it doesn't. Job was not demon-possessed. God allowed satan to afflict him. The sickness was part of the affliction. No, Job did not believe God wronged him. That's why in the end, God says that Job was righteous, and restored to Job more than was taken away. Job never lost fellowship with God during the trials and afflictions...he continued to converse with God. He never lost sight of God and God's getting him through it. He was never demon-possessed, but remained God's property. Essentially, what God did was allow satan permission to afflict His servant, not inhabit him.

This really feels like pulling teeth sometimes. No wonder people get frustrated and tempers flare ... it's difficult enough trying to share something with which someone else might disagree without having them completely miss the point on top of it all, thus necessitating an entire siderail to the discussion to explain things ...

(1) I did not claim Job got "inhabited" by demons. I was using Job's experience as an illustration of the simple fact that God does in fact give Satan permission at times to afflict even the righteous. You had raised that question, I sought to provide a Biblical answer to it. Nowhere in doing so did I attempt at all to claim Job to be possessed; that was never the issue.

(2) If you don't believe Job ever questioned what God was "doing to him" then you need to go back and read the story again. At one point he even cries out that he wishes God were a man like himself so he could MAKE him come down off his throne and give him (Job) an answer! I'm paraphrasing there, but he does express those sentiments and if you think he never does, you need to read the book of Job again. The amazing thing about this is that in spite of him doing so, God says that Job did not sin against Him. That should tell us something. It tells us that when we misunderstand God and His purposes, and even when we feel angry, betrayed, let down or ill-treated by Him, these do not constitute sin. Misunderstanding perhaps. But not sin.

(3) I brought up the sickness as part of the affliction precisely because it did, in fact, involve permission for Satan to touch him at that deep and intimate a level as to affect his body. We are kind of stuck with and in our bodies you know, and having to share them with germs and bacteria and boils and sores and whatever else is not a pleasant thing. We cannot just easily detach ourselves mentally and pretend aches and pains and ooze and pus is not there. We don't tend to float through sickness with no awareness of the suffering it inflicts, in other words, but rather, cannot escape it, as it's right here inside us. A lot of silly arguments wrangling over technicalities over whether a demon is inside the flesh or sitting on the shoulder or chasing behind you have been thrown around here.

My point is simply this: regardless where you locate your demon, the torment, the affliction, the pain and suffering, is right inside the human being and cannot be merely shrugged off as non-existent because it is more theologically convenient to do so. If you get captured by a bunch of malicious thugs, strung up in an abandoned warehouse and subjected to starvation and torture daily, those thugs are certainly outside of you. They cannot "remote control" your brain. They can even leave the warehouse itself for long periods of time leaving you chained up to the ceiling or whatever. But the pain and suffering they inflict stay inside you and rip you to shreds and you cannot simply stop experiencing it by telling yourself God still loves you, even though yes of course He does and yes of course He is your only hope for deliverance. THAT is what *I* am talking about here.

 

[EternalSummer]

Very broad and incorrect generalisation there though.

Pro inhabbitation side with the POV about the devil which can be summarised in one sentence "God won, Satan lost"

Satans entire arsenal is based on lies theres not much more to know than that.

Well I would not say entirely based on lies. But I could be wrong. A kidnapper or hostage-taker might use lies to kidnap someone or take them hostage, but ultimately, their ability to overpower the victim is what gives them the advantage. When someone pulls a gun on you and says "do what I say or else" most of us tend to opt for sacrificing autonomy in the hopes of living long enough to escape or be rescued. If they then drag you off somewhere and tie you up or chain you up or lock you in some little room, you can try to escape all you want but if the locks, restraints, whatever are too powerful for you, or you get caught and shoved back into the room with stronger locks, etc. then you are not getting out by yourself no matter how hard you try. At that point you need rescue. You need the cops, or a SWAT team or the FBI to bust in and take down the thugs and set you free.

These situations happen all the time in the human world. Why is it so inconceivable that they can happen in the spiritual world as well? Lets face it, none of us want to think about what might happen if "bad guys" (criminal thugs) ever held us hostage or enemies captured and tortured us. The experience would stink, no two ways about it, and we'd probably be scared to some degree. We might fight that with courage and faith, but we'd have to FIGHT that fear because it would assail us. And I think likewise none of us want to imagine what it would be like to be a prisoner inside our own bodies chained up to things we can't even see and most people don't even believe exist in the first place.

Here's the thing. I think it is better to ultimately take a default position that God is in control and will protect us from anything like that EVER happening, and just not worry about whether it might or could or whatever. The only people who need to wrestle that out would be those it has already happened to and those who might be interested in helping them get out of it. Those who don't believe it can happen obviously cannot be interested in helping others get out of it because they don't believe said others actually exist in the first place. So wrestling it should be left to those in need of rescue and those interested in joining God's SWAT team to pull it off.

 

[EternalSummer]

Well I guess as the thread unfolds...

The reality is,there is no evidence in the bible of inhabitation,possession,or "entry"
For the spirit filled believer..
Warfare,flesh,yes,but that is it..

Do you believe born-again, Spirit-filled believers can "fall away" from their walk in grace? Do you believe that even without falling away, things can happen to human beings that weaken them physically, mentally, emotionally, morally, or any combination of those things, leaving them vulnerable to being tricked, deceived, or even overpowered, AT ALL? And let's not say necessarily by demons but just AT ALL, even by other human beings perhaps, or the confusion of their own brains?

What causes born-again Christians to embrace false legalistic teachings? What causes born-again Christians to join spiritually abusive cult-like churches? What causes born-again Christians to buy into new age practices dressed up like new discoveries about how to worship God? Please don't think I'm asking this to imply the answer to be "demons" because I'm not. I'm asking rhetorically to show you these things can and do happen. We live in a world where people get molested, overpowered, manipulated, tricked, messed with, messed up, and messed about on a routine basis, regardless of their faith.

Faith alone cannot protect you where intelligence greater than you possess is needed to navigate a situation, or moral fortitude greater than you have perfected so far, or emotional stability greater than you have developed. Faith exists to enable us to maintain trust in God THROUGH all possible situations from pleasant to disastrous. It does NOT exist as an "escape disaster free card". Life is not a game!

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny
If Jesus the Christ has set us free we are free indeed. It either is or it isn't true. If God owns us now, He would not allow His 'property' to be in-dwelled by the likes of a demon. They have no authority to be there. Where would they get the authority from? God?

Originally Posted by EternalSummer
What about Job? The devil got permission from God -- literally -- to wreak havoc in every area of his life and even to afflict him personally and directly with sickness. The one restriction God placed on Satan was simply this: "do not take his life." Ironic, eh? The devil was not allowed to END Job's suffering, only expand it as far as he wanted to go without bringing him the ultimate relief of the grave. And Job himself cried out for that relief going through all this, because Job believed God Himself had wronged him. Here he had always obeyed God and done what is upright and God Himself had "punished" him (according to the OT Israelite theology of that time) and treated him as if he had been a sinner, an idol-worshiper, a rebellious and disobedient evildoer. No wonder the poor man wanted to die!!

The book of Job exists for a reason. And in fact, every single argument made on these threads against the modern day Jobs -- Christians who end up afflicted through no fault of their own and despite doing everything they know how to do to serve God -- shows up in the book of Job as the arguments Job's so-called "friends" throw at HIM trying to "straighten out" his thinking. But in the end, Job gets vindicated, and God Himself tells those others outright that they have not spoken of Him what is right like His servant Job has.

Make of that what you will. I think it encompasses AND answers this entire situation quite perfectly in every regard.

brinny: no. it doesn't. Job was not demon-possessed. God allowed satan to afflict him. The sickness was part of the affliction. No, Job did not believe God wronged him. That's why in the end, God says that Job was righteous, and restored to Job more than was taken away. Job never lost fellowship with God during the trials and afflictions...he continued to converse with God. He never lost sight of God and God's getting him through it. He was never demon-possessed, but remained God's property. Essentially, what God did was allow satan permission to afflict His servant, not inhabit him.

This really feels like pulling teeth sometimes. No wonder people get frustrated and tempers flare ... it's difficult enough trying to share something with which someone else might disagree without having them completely miss the point on top of it all, thus necessitating an entire siderail to the discussion to explain things ...

(1) I did not claim Job got "inhabited" by demons. I was using Job's experience as an illustration of the simple fact that God does in fact give Satan permission at times to afflict even the righteous. You had raised that question, I sought to provide a Biblical answer to it. Nowhere in doing so did I attempt at all to claim Job to be possessed; that was never the issue.

(2) If you don't believe Job ever questioned what God was "doing to him" then you need to go back and read the story again. At one point he even cries out that he wishes God were a man like himself so he could MAKE him come down off his throne and give him (Job) an answer! I'm paraphrasing there, but he does express those sentiments and if you think he never does, you need to read the book of Job again. The amazing thing about this is that in spite of him doing so, God says that Job did not sin against Him. That should tell us something. It tells us that when we misunderstand God and His purposes, and even when we feel angry, betrayed, let down or ill-treated by Him, these do not constitute sin. Misunderstanding perhaps. But not sin.

(3) I brought up the sickness as part of the affliction precisely because it did, in fact, involve permission for Satan to touch him at that deep and intimate a level as to affect his body. We are kind of stuck with and in our bodies you know, and having to share them with germs and bacteria and boils and sores and whatever else is not a pleasant thing. We cannot just easily detach ourselves mentally and pretend aches and pains and ooze and pus is not there. We don't tend to float through sickness with no awareness of the suffering it inflicts, in other words, but rather, cannot escape it, as it's right here inside us. A lot of silly arguments wrangling over technicalities over whether a demon is inside the flesh or sitting on the shoulder or chasing behind you have been thrown around here.

My point is simply this: regardless where you locate your demon, the torment, the affliction, the pain and suffering, is right inside the human being and cannot be merely shrugged off as non-existent because it is more theologically convenient to do so. If you get captured by a bunch of malicious thugs, strung up in an abandoned warehouse and subjected to starvation and torture daily, those thugs are certainly outside of you. They cannot "remote control" your brain. They can even leave the warehouse itself for long periods of time leaving you chained up to the ceiling or whatever. But the pain and suffering they inflict stay inside you and rip you to shreds and you cannot simply stop experiencing it by telling yourself God still loves you, even though yes of course He does and yes of course He is your only hope for deliverance. THAT is what *I* am talking about here.

Maybe using Job as an example was not demonstrating the point you were trying to make. We both agree he was not inhabited by demons. That was my point. Thanks for helping me clarify that.

 

[pinetree]

The truth of the matter is that demons enter our bloodstream through mosquitos!

Look close,you can see it in there...

 

[pinetree]

Seems like we are just hearing a bunch of this..

Armchair teachings..

 

[Tenebrae]

Seems like we are just hearing a bunch of this..

Armchair teachings..

Armchair would imply lack of experience

 

[Elijah2]

Seems like we are just hearing a bunch of this..

Armchair teachings..

Which armchair mate, the one in front of your computer, or the armchairs in front of everyone else's computer. Interesting!

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

 

[Elijah2]

2 Thessalonians 3:3

3But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen and protect you from the evil one.

“But the Lord is faithful, who will establish you and guard you from the evil one.” (2 Thess. 3:3 NKJV)

Yes, we see this often throughout the Body of Christ, when many born-again Christians are tempted and unfaithful. I guess those who fall to temptations, and lose a bit of faith, can fall to sin and do things that are wilful toward His Word allowing Satan's forces access into their lives.

But, like most ministries, such as the healing and deliverance ministry some can be confident that through our Lord Jesus Christ those ministry teams are lead and guided by the Holy Spirit, so that they would "establish" them in good foundation of His Word, encourage them in their faith (1 Thess. 3:2) strengthen them in their spiritual need as they "comfort their hearts (of broken-hearted Christians) and establish them in every GOOD WORD (foundation in His Word) and WORK (obedience and discipline to His Word and HIM", such as the "TRUTH that they shall know, the truth that sets them free" (John 8:32).

We know that our Lord Jesus Christ will "guard" them, those who seek help, and protect them by being "delivered from UNREASONABLE and WICKED MEN" (v2). We also know that our Lord Jesus Christ will faithfully stand watch over them, while being counselled, so that the "evil one (unclean spirits/roaring lion)", can't get a hold of them, particularly those who are experiencing persecution, torment, and harassment because of their faith and weaknesses.

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

 

[Elijah2]

Seems like alot of people on theses demon threads ,know more about the schemes of the devil,than who they are in Christ!

Not so my dear brother, they have been working at the coalface, and not sitting in their armchair in front of their computer?

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

 

[Elijah2]

I can see why you believe what you do about the spirit and this I am sure won't change your thinking.

Here it is anyway.

This scripture says that God is a Spirit.

Jn 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
KJV


God made man is his image and likeness.

Ge 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth
KJV


We agree, I am sure that the Godhead is a trinity.

God made man in his likeness and image he made man spirit, soul and body.

1 Th 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV


Mary at the time of this event was not a born again Christian as Jesus had not gone to the cross yet. Therefore the Holy Spirit was not residing in her yet.

Notice she is aware she is spirit and comments on it.

Lk 1:46-47

46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
KJV


When this maid was raised from the dead her spirit which is the place of life came back as Jn 6:63 also shows.

Lk 8:54-55

54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.

55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
KJV

Jn 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit , and they are life.
KJV

And when Stephen died his spirit(him) went to the Lord.

Ac 7:59
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit .
KJV

When the spirit leaves the body so does the soul as they are connected.

Heb 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
KJV

The word can divide them which is the only thing the word mentions that can.

Great stuff mate, that is exactly what healing and deliverance ministry establishes in the counselling of struggling CHristians so that they fully understand who they are and who are they in our Lord Jesus CHrist.

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

 

[Elijah2]

Jude 1:24
To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy—


1 Thessalonians 5:23
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Sure seems to me like he is able to keep us in pretty good shape.

So true my dear brother and I think I commented on those Scriptures earlier on another thread. And we all know that Jude is talking about trying to keep our Lord's followers from being deceived and tripped up by false teachers, causing them to stumble while they race the run of endurance.

Our Lord does guard us in this life from all the pitfalls and dangers that deceivers put in our way, as HE is the only one who saves us, sets us free, cleanse us from our sins as those who minister to those struggling Christians who are presented to HIM "faultless", because we all know that HE is the Author and Perfector of our faith.

But, even though we are His saints and kept "blameless", which doesn't mean that we are "SINLESS".

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.