PLEASE! lets settle the issue,the final demon thread!

[EternalSummer]

it is taught here..
see...below, I pasted and copied it of the sf forum section.

Please be aware that one person's individual ideas about things does not represent the thinking of every person who accepts the fact that demonization is just another type of affliction and therefore any Christian who can get sick or mentally ill can get demonized too. Not everyone who understands that necessarily thinks alike or agrees with everything others who understand that might want to "teach" about it.

Just saying. "Gotta keep 'em separated ..."

 

[EternalSummer]

That's why we too can ~rest~ with God even while demons rage against us. For our wrestle is not against people but demons who are Trespasser's needing to be dispossessed, little by little as God leads.

Actually, I'm not sure I could agree with this. With regards to demons, everything I've read in scripture says cast them out. Do it, get the job done, move on. Like with miraculous healing coming by the prayer of faith -- it's not gradual or little by little like with doctors' treatments. It's instant, complete, and permanent by the power of Jesus Christ. That is how it ought to be with deliverance too. Someone who has demons and gets a real deliverance will be free of demons. They will still have to deal with the same lusts of the flesh and sinful propensities we all have to deal with, though. Being demon-free doesn't fix that.

And that would be where your "little by little" teachings come in handy. Because it's the flesh and its lusts and sinful impulses that we conquer little by little, drive out bit by bit, every day as we walk in the Spirit, follow Jesus and learn from Him.

 

[Elijah2]

So, The soul of man is in the brain!

The brain is a physical organ that dies at death just like the other body parts.

According to this scripture the soul is so closely connected to the spirit of man that dividing them is not a simple task.

Heb 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
KJV

The soul is the emotion mind and will.

AT physical death the spirit and soul go to heaven or hell, to be joined back to the body at appointed times.

This demon stuff is getting ridiculous.

If the demons were able to do all that some say man would have no chance.

The "spirit of man" isn't the "spirit", because that is where the Holy Spirit dwells, the "spirit of man" is in the "soul". The "spirit of man" is the: thinking of the man in the carnal mind; the emotional feelings through pride, will, and hurts, etc., etc.; words that you speak from your spiritual mind your heart.

Now if all of this is negative and from a sinful nature, then the "spirit of man" can be demonised, and when the "soul" is inner healed, filled, cleansed, conformed to HIM, and transformed by renewing their spiritual mind, their heart, they will prove what is good and acceptable to the perfect will of our Lord Jesus CHrist.

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

 

[Tobias]

Let's try to clear things up!


Ok, so this discussion is NOT about whether a Christian can be possessed or not... at least not the age old argument that we've been going around and around with for years. Most Deliverance ministries changed their wording years ago to "Christians being oppressed", averting this portion of the argument altogether. As it has been pointed out, the Bible uses neither terminology, but says that a person can be "demonized".


Any objections so far??


What this leaves then is the question whether a Christian can be demonized or not. I said earlier it would be the responsible thing to define first what constitutes as a "real Christian" before we go telling people that they can't be demonized, but well... that was just logic and Brother Pinetree doesn't respond to logic and only wants scriptures quoted.


So while I have no interest in defending a position that a "Christian can be demon possessed", I definitely do believe a Christian can be demonized. I also believe that the scriptures are quite clear that this is the case, many verses have been quoted already to support this. I could go back and reiterate some of them if that would help... but this topic seems to be stuck on "possession" rather than demonization; which has more to do with technicalities of the usage of an English word that doesn't translate accurately into any Greek or Hebrew word used in the Bible.

Until we can drop the word "possessed" and replace it with "demonized", this thread will never be able to live up to it's name!

 

[pinetree]

Let's try to clear things up!


Ok, so this discussion is NOT about whether a Christian can be possessed or not... at least not the age old argument that we've been going around and around with for years. Most Deliverance ministries changed their wording years ago to "Christians being oppressed", averting this portion of the argument altogether. As it has been pointed out, the Bible uses neither terminology, but says that a person can be "demonized".


Any objections so far??


What this leaves then is the question whether a Christian can be demonized or not. I said earlier it would be the responsible thing to define first what constitutes as a "real Christian" before we go telling people that they can't be demonized, but well... that was just logic and Brother Pinetree doesn't respond to logic and only wants scriptures quoted.


So while I have no interest in defending a position that a "Christian can be demon possessed", I definitely do believe a Christian can be demonized. I also believe that the scriptures are quite clear that this is the case, many verses have been quoted already to support this. I could go back and reiterate some of them if that would help... but this topic seems to be stuck on "possession" rather than demonization; which has more to do with technicalities of the usage of an English word that doesn't translate accurately into any Greek or Hebrew word used in the Bible.

Until we can drop the word "possessed" and replace it with "demonized", this thread will never be able to live up to it's name!

Brother pinetree seeks what Paul did too..

1. 1 Timothy 6:3
   [ Love of Money ] If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,
   1 Timothy 6:2-4 (in Context) 1 Timothy 6 (Whole Chapter)
2. 2 Timothy 4:3
   For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
   2 Timothy 4:2-4 (in Context) 2 Timothy 4 (Whole Chapter)
3. Titus 1:9
   He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

 

[brinny]

Let's try to clear things up!


Ok, so this discussion is NOT about whether a Christian can be possessed or not... at least not the age old argument that we've been going around and around with for years. Most Deliverance ministries changed their wording years ago to "Christians being oppressed", averting this portion of the argument altogether. As it has been pointed out, the Bible uses neither terminology, but says that a person can be "demonized".


Any objections so far??


What this leaves then is the question whether a Christian can be demonized or not. I said earlier it would be the responsible thing to define first what constitutes as a "real Christian" before we go telling people that they can't be demonized, but well... that was just logic and Brother Pinetree doesn't respond to logic and only wants scriptures quoted.


So while I have no interest in defending a position that a "Christian can be demon possessed", I definitely do believe a Christian can be demonized. I also believe that the scriptures are quite clear that this is the case, many verses have been quoted already to support this. I could go back and reiterate some of them if that would help... but this topic seems to be stuck on "possession" rather than demonization; which has more to do with technicalities of the usage of an English word that doesn't translate accurately into any Greek or Hebrew word used in the Bible.

Until we can drop the word "possessed" and replace it with "demonized", this thread will never be able to live up to it's name!

what do you mean by demon-ized?

i just looked it up:

de⋅mon⋅ize   /ˈdiməˌnaɪz/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [dee-muh-nahyz] Show IPA Pronunciation

–verb (used with object), -ized, -iz⋅ing. 1. to turn into a demon or make demonlike.
2. to subject to the influence of demons.

Tobias, please explain. Thank you.

 

[brinny]

Pinetree, ever heard of Dr J Vernon McGee? He speaks on this subject.

 

[Optimax]

The "spirit of man" isn't the "spirit", because that is where the Holy Spirit dwells, the "spirit of man" is in the "soul". The "spirit of man" is the: thinking of the man in the carnal mind; the emotional feelings through pride, will, and hurts, etc., etc.; words that you speak from your spiritual mind your heart.

Now if all of this is negative and from a sinful nature, then the "spirit of man" can be demonised, and when the "soul" is inner healed, filled, cleansed, conformed to HIM, and transformed by renewing their spiritual mind, their heart, they will prove what is good and acceptable to the perfect will of our Lord Jesus CHrist.

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

Have some scriptures for you about this.

Going fishing now, will post them when I return.

 

[Tobias]

what do you mean by demon-ized?

i just looked it up:

de⋅mon⋅ize   /ˈdiməˌnaɪz/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [dee-muh-nahyz] Show IPA Pronunciation

–verb (used with object), -ized, -iz⋅ing. 1. to turn into a demon or make demonlike.
2. to subject to the influence of demons.

Tobias, please explain. Thank you.

Jim explained it very well a couple of pages back. Here it is:

Here’s my take on it (from another forum).

The idea that believers cannot be demon possessed is true but only because there is no such thing as demon “possessed”. The word “possessed” has been added by English translators to use a popular English term to describe the single Greek word diamonizomai in Greek (you can check me out on your online Strongs, if you like). Some translators feel that the word “demonized” should be used instead of “demon possessed”.

That would change the argument IMO. The question would then be, “Can a Christian be demonized,” and that’s a whole ‘nother subject.

Can a Christian be demonized?

Sure. I’ve met some who must have been.

When I say a Christian can be demonized, I mean that a Christian can suffer from the direct influence of demons. For example, the “daughter of Abraham” (i.e., a lady in covenant with God) in Luke 13.10-12 was obviously affected by a “spirit of infirmity” from which Christ “loosed” her (it does not say ‘healed’ her). And Paul, certainly in covenant with God, spoke in 2 Corinthians 12 of a “minister of Satan” that tormented him (IMO, another spirit of infirmity).

IOW, both were demonized at some level. Of course there are people, like the demoniac of Gadara or the child who suffered seizures, who are so demonized that they sometimes lose control of their own faculties. The English term for that would be “possession” although there is no comparable work for possession in Greek, just diamonizomai.

There is no such thing as demon “possession”, just diamonizomai.

I just have never found in scripture where Christians are exempt from demonization. In fact we are constantly warned in the Epistles to be vigilant and sober against the wiles of Satan.

~Jim

When you gonna wake up and strengthen the things that remain? ~Bob Dylan, 1979​

 

[Tobias]

Brother pinetree seeks what Paul did too..

1. 1 Timothy 6:3
   [ Love of Money ] If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,
   1 Timothy 6:2-4 (in Context) 1 Timothy 6 (Whole Chapter)
2. 2 Timothy 4:3
   For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
   2 Timothy 4:2-4 (in Context) 2 Timothy 4 (Whole Chapter)
3. Titus 1:9
   He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

So why would you still use the term, "demon possessed", after it has been shown to you that it is not in the Bible? 280 some posts in this thread and you act as though you haven't learned one simple little thing yet!!

Tell me, why should I bother if nothing, absolutely nothing is getting anywhere with you?

 

[EternalSummer]

What this leaves then is the question whether a Christian can be demonized or not. ... So while I have no interest in defending a position that a "Christian can be demon possessed", I definitely do believe a Christian can be demonized. I also believe that the scriptures are quite clear that this is the case, many verses have been quoted already to support this. I could go back and reiterate some of them if that would help... but this topic seems to be stuck on "possession" rather than demonization; which has more to do with technicalities of the usage of an English word that doesn't translate accurately into any Greek or Hebrew word used in the Bible.

Until we can drop the word "possessed" and replace it with "demonized", this thread will never be able to live up to it's name!

Personally I think quibbling over semantics is meaningless.

IF you wish to get "technical" ... even in the worst case scenario with an UNbeliever totally overtaken by demons to the point of having no control over himself whatsoever, we cannot use the word "possessed" in the English sense of "ownership" because Jesus Christ "bought" the entire human race with His blood on the Cross, so "technically" we are ALL the "purchased possession" of Jesus Christ alone, whether we believe on Him or not, whether we are clean, sane and whole or filled with so many devils as to become a walking pit of spiritual vermin and evil or something. In every case the demon(s) are interlopers, intruders, B&E's with NO legitimate "rights" to their victims whatsoever -- yes, regardless of how much or how little sin the victim has indulged, or what form of sin, or what has been done to them, or whether they forgive or not -- demons have NO "legal" rights whatsoever -- zero, zip, zilch, NONE -- to be where they are doing whatever they are doing to harass, afflict, oppress, bully, intimidate, scare, abuse, overwhelm, invade, whatever, a human soul for whom Christ died!!!

Quibbling over the actual physical location of the invading, oppressing, harassing, WHATEVER-ing "entities" is likewise an exercise in futility. Again, given our hypothetical totally overtaken unbeliever in the example above, there is no way to prove where the demons actually sit around doing their "thing", whether they come and go, whether they sit inside the person or on his shoulder or out in the invisible void somewhere. Deliverance ministers talk about "closing doorways" to the demons by uncovering the "root" (basic reason) of how and why they got "in there" in the first place, so maybe there is some literal reality to that and some kind of "dimensional door" where they cross into manifestation in our world exists in, near, or around the demonized person. We cannot prove or disprove any of these ideas but only speculate because we (meaning the human race) cannot definitively establish the existence of a spiritual kingdom or other dimension at all, let alone what it consists of and how it works.

Scripture says those "possessed" are actually (in proper translation from the Greek) "demonized", "have a demon", "under the power of demons" or "afflicted by demons". These are all different ways in English to express the same experience. Once this becomes the case, the degree of "control over" the person that the demons have can vary. Some of them in scripture only control certain things, such as the slave girl in Acts 16 who told fortunes for money but presumably in all other respects must have had a fairly normal life as a slave, or the boy who got thrown into the fire or water whenever his demons "seized upon" him, to the demoniacs who apparently were "sane enough" to attend synagogue on sabbath and probably lived semi-normal lives also, all the way to Legion who was so overtaken that it drove him completely outside human society to live alone in the tombs howling in pain and cutting himself with stones.

The amount of control isn't important. The location of the vexing spiritual parasites isn't important. The condition of the human heart, believer or non-believer, isn't important, at least not as something impacting the condition of demonization. The semantics we use are not so important once we recognize the word "possessed" does not refer to ownership but to expressing a serious level of control over the victim. And that last consideration is not so inconceivable once we recognize that even lowly physical parasites can affect the brain and behavior of creatures they invade in order to complete their life-cycles.

All that is important is the fact that a human being for whom Jesus Christ shed His blood is suffering and being systematically destroyed, and needs help. Will we help -- minister Christ to them, His love, His compassion, His power to save, deliver and heal? -- or will we sit around arguing over whether their pain is theologically viable? Good grief, Priorities, people ... PRIORITIES!!!

 

[EternalSummer]

So why would you still use the term, "demon possessed", after it has been shown to you that it is not in the Bible? 280 some posts in this thread and you act as though you haven't learned one simple little thing yet!!

Tell me, why should I bother if nothing, absolutely nothing is getting anywhere with you?

This raises a legitimate question concerning the nature of seeking after truth itself, period. Do we seek after truth by engaging dynamically with a subject, weighing the considerations brought which challenge our presuppositions, and wrestling with the matter in earnest, as many of us have demonstrated a willingness to do here? Or do we seek after truth by determining our own counsel to be correct, digging in our heels at every turn, pretending to disqualify anything which challenges our own counsels as "irrelevant" to the question, and refusing to entertain anything that challenges our presuppositions?

Is it really a search for the truth of the matter where someone rides a personal hobby horse determined to press a specific POV no matter what, and to seek to establish that POV as "THE" one and only absolute truth of God, no matter what is shown or offered to the contrary? I don't think so.

 

[Tobias]

IF you wish to get "technical" ... even in the worst case scenario with an UNbeliever totally overtaken by demons to the point of having no control over himself whatsoever, we cannot use the word "possessed" in the English sense of "ownership" because Jesus Christ "bought" the entire human race with His blood on the Cross, so "technically" we are ALL the "purchased possession" of Jesus Christ alone, whether we believe on Him or not, whether we are clean, sane and whole or filled with so many devils as to become a walking pit of spiritual vermin and evil or something. In every case the demon(s) are interlopers, intruders, B&E's with NO legitimate "rights" to their victims whatsoever

Exactly!


Demonic influence comes in stages. To some it is near complete control over the physical body, while to others it is in the form of simple suggestions we know as temptation. Can demons tempt Spirit-filled Believers? Certainly they can! And I hope nobody here is trying to state otherwise.

How much influence then can a demon have over a Spirit-filled Believer? If it is true that complete possession is not even possible, then the question must be answered using other criteria. We have to change our temonology somewhere along the way to even discuss this issue.

 

[EternalSummer]

Exactly!


Demonic influence comes in stages. To some it is near complete control over the physical body, while to others it is in the form of simple suggestions we know as temptation. Can demons tempt Spirit-filled Believers? Certainly they can! And I hope nobody here is trying to state otherwise.

How much influence then can a demon have over a Spirit-filled Believer? If it is true that complete possession is not even possible, then the question must be answered using other criteria. We have to change our temonology somewhere along the way to even discuss this issue.

From what I understand, demons seek to exert influence, power, or control (manipulation) over four areas of human existence: the physical body, the intellect, the emotions, and the will. Each of these aspects of human existence, you will notice, resides in what the Bible broadly terms "the flesh" (Greek, sarx). The only freedom any of us can ever experience from the totality (and tyranny) of SELF which is this whole "flesh" or 'carnal' existence, is by walking in the Spirit, living from the place inside us where we connect with Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit and receive the eternal-quality Life from Him (zoe) to quicken our "dead" present lives (bios).

I would have to confess I'm not entirely certain of what motivates demons in seeking to control human beings. I don't know if they derive personal satisfaction from making slaves of us or manipulating us like puppets -- or from flaunting their ability to degrade lives and erode humanity as a kind of flip-off gesture "in God's face" -- or if there is some longer-term "strategy" going on which only demons or Satan would know about. I honestly don't know. Some cases you read about seem to have clear "goals" in mind of creating deceptions, false teachings, etc. which successfully mislead others (such as can occur in cases where the demonized person exhibits supernatural talents that seduce others). But some cases seem pointless exercises in totally degrading the person and defacing or defiling the image of God in their humanity. For example, the story about Karen Kingston who, if we believe the story to be a true and faithful account, basically got reduced to a retarded, slobbering wreck by several demons before she got delivered. Personally I can't make sense of that -- what would be the point? -- but then again the same could be said about "Legion" in the Bible, I suppose.

What about you Tobias, got any insights on that particular question?

 

[Angel*Eyes]

For example, the story about Karen Kingston who, if we believe the story to be a true and faithful account, basically got reduced to a retarded, slobbering wreck by several demons before she got delivered. Personally I can't make sense of that -- what would be the point? -- but then again the same could be said about "Legion" in the Bible, I suppose.

What about you Tobias, got any insights on that particular question?

The enemy point is simple to kill, steal, and destroy. He uses different tactics for different people, but his goal is the same.
He wants to abort the plans and purposes of God on earth.

When we walk in purpose and are fully yielded to the Spirit of God then we are a THREAT to the kigdom of darkness.

If he makes someone retarded, that person able to function and fully complete their task on earth. The enemy also wants to kill off innocent souls before they are even born so that they won't be a threat to his kingdom.

By oppressing or posessing someone, he is able to carry out his plan for the person.

 

[Optimax]

The "spirit of man" isn't the "spirit", because that is where the Holy Spirit dwells, the "spirit of man" is in the "soul". The "spirit of man" is the: thinking of the man in the carnal mind; the emotional feelings through pride, will, and hurts, etc., etc.; words that you speak from your spiritual mind your heart.

Now if all of this is negative and from a sinful nature, then the "spirit of man" can be demonised, and when the "soul" is inner healed, filled, cleansed, conformed to HIM, and transformed by renewing their spiritual mind, their heart, they will prove what is good and acceptable to the perfect will of our Lord Jesus CHrist.

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

I can see why you believe what you do about the spirit and this I am sure won't change your thinking.

Here it is anyway.

This scripture says that God is a Spirit.

Jn 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
KJV


God made man is his image and likeness.

Ge 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth
KJV


We agree, I am sure that the Godhead is a trinity.

God made man in his likeness and image he made man spirit, soul and body.

1 Th 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV


Mary at the time of this event was not a born again Christian as Jesus had not gone to the cross yet. Therefore the Holy Spirit was not residing in her yet.

Notice she is aware she is spirit and comments on it.

Lk 1:46-47

46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
KJV


When this maid was raised from the dead her spirit which is the place of life came back as Jn 6:63 also shows.

Lk 8:54-55

54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.

55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
KJV

Jn 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit , and they are life.
KJV

And when Stephen died his spirit(him) went to the Lord.

Ac 7:59
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit .
KJV

When the spirit leaves the body so does the soul as they are connected.

Heb 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
KJV

The word can divide them which is the only thing the word mentions that can.

 

[pinetree]

I can see why you believe what you do about the spirit and this I am sure won't change your thinking.

Here it is anyway.

This scripture says that God is a Spirit.

Jn 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
KJV


God made man is his image and likeness.

Ge 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth
KJV


We agree, I am sure that the Godhead is a trinity.

God made man in his likeness and image he made man spirit, soul and body.

1 Th 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV


Mary at the time of this event was not a born again Christian as Jesus had not gone to the cross yet. Therefore the Holy Spirit was not residing in her yet.

Notice she is aware she is spirit and comments on it.

Lk 1:46-47

46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
KJV


When this maid was raised from the dead her spirit which is the place of life came back as Jn 6:63 also shows.

Lk 8:54-55

54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.

55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
KJV

Jn 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit , and they are life.
KJV

And when Stephen died his spirit(him) went to the Lord.

Ac 7:59
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit .
KJV

When the spirit leaves the body so does the soul as they are connected.

Heb 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
KJV

The word can divide them which is the only thing the word mentions that can.

Ahhhh.
Thank you,all so well written and clearly stated.

All we get from the believe in inhabitation side of the isle is confusion.

All these strange convoluted unscriptural theories.

 

[pinetree]

Jude 1:24
To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy—


1 Thessalonians 5:23
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Sure seems to me like he is able to keep us in pretty good shape.

 

[pinetree]

Seems like alot of people on theses demon threads ,know more about the schemes of the devil,than who they are in Christ!

 

[Svt4Him]

Would that include you?