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Please learn English

joebudda

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This is explanation enough:

No, really it explains nothing at all. First you need to explain to me why I should follow a law just because it is a law.

In Idaho it is Illegal for a man to give his sweetheart a box of candy weighing less than fifty pounds. Maybe you can convince me that I should follow this law too just because it is a law?
 
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Ringo84

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Learn English or get out. It's worked for most of our nation's history.
It's not like one can wave a magic wand and instantly learn a language.

That's exactly why giving special treatment to the wilfully ignorant is unfair to those who follow the rules.
Are they "willfully ignorant", or struggling to learn a language that's confusing to non-speakers?

My family didn't need special treatment.
That doesn't mean they didn't struggle to learn english.

Speaking as a person who took five years of Spanish in high school (and Spanish is not as easy a language to learn as you might think), and whose Dad is trying to become fluent in Italian and Russian, I can say that you are greatly simplifying this issue. I'm not saying that you're necessarily wrong about immigrants learning english. I just think it's far too simple to say, "learn english in a finite amount of time or get out". It doesn't work that way. It never has.
Ringo
 
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SpyridonOCA

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Like not bringing shotguns to church in the event of a Native American attack would be willful disregard for the rules of law in Maine. If a law is a dumb law there is no "rational" reason to follow it.
...having thousands of undocumented immigrants is insane if we are to have a criminal justice system that works. How do I know that Julio isn’t a gang banger who massacres entire classrooms? I don’t. That’s why you need papers to step foot here in the first place.
Please stop evading the point like a political partisan. Unless you have papers, I have no way of knowing whether you are a criminal. Are all immigrants criminals? Of course not. I have a right to protect myself from liberal activism.
Please don't make me repeat myself. There's no need responding to points I've already answered. You don't need nor deserve special treatment.

If you don't believe I am, cool. You mean nothing to me anyway.
I'm sorry if this thread is misinterpreted. It's out of love for others that I want protection against undocumented criminals.

You mean everything to me.
 
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SpyridonOCA

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I'm not saying that you're necessarily wrong about immigrants learning english. I just think it's far too simple to say, "learn english in a finite amount of time or get out". It doesn't work that way. It never has.
The equal protection clause bars Hispanics from being treated differently from other ethnic groups.
Nation -

A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality: "Historically the Ukrainians are an ancient nation which has persisted and survived through terrible calamity" (Robert Conquest).

Out of fairness to those who've respected the law, let's not insult the intelligence of Hispanics.
 
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SpyridonOCA

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No, really it explains nothing at all. First you need to explain to me why I should follow a law just because it is a law.

In Idaho it is Illegal for a man to give his sweetheart a box of candy weighing less than fifty pounds. Maybe you can convince me that I should follow this law too just because it is a law?
Should there be laws against rape, murder and theft? Or is that too statist? Unless you have papers, how do I know your criminal history?
...having thousands of undocumented immigrants is insane if we are to have a criminal justice system that works. How do I know that Julio isn’t a gang banger who massacres entire classrooms? I don’t. That’s why you need papers to step foot here in the first place.
Please stop evading the point like a political partisan. Unless you have papers, I have no way of knowing whether you are a criminal. Are all immigrants criminals? Of course not. I have a right to protect myself from liberal activism.
Please don't make me repeat myself. There's no need responding to points I've already answered. You don't need nor deserve special treatment.

Gracias.
 
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Ringo84

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Out of fairness to those who've respected the law, let's not insult the intelligence of Hispanics.

What are you talking about? Where have I insulted the intelligence of Hispanics?
Ringo
 
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joebudda

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...having thousands of undocumented immigrants is insane if we are to have a criminal justice system that works. How do I know that Julio isn’t a gang banger who massacres entire classrooms? I don’t. That’s why you need papers to step foot here in the first place.
Come on, and you insinuated that I wasn't being rational. Are you under the delusion that every illegal immigrant will massacre entire classrooms? I can't even think of one such innocent. Are you fear mongering? It sure does seem like it.

Please stop evading the point like a political partisan. Unless you have papers, I have no way of knowing whether you are a criminal. Are all immigrants criminals? Of course not. I have a right to protect myself from liberal activism.
And you have no idea if anyone is a criminal who you pass on the street. Yep you are fear mongering.

Please don't make me repeat myself. There's no need responding to points I've already answered. You don't need nor deserve special treatment.
Maybe if you explained your reasons logically rather then fear mongering you would make a bit more sense.

You mean everything to me.
Well good for you, I guess. Maybe you should get yourself a hobby?
 
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SpyridonOCA

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What are you talking about? Where have I insulted the intelligence of Hispanics?
Ringo

You have in implying that they can't learn English and become citizens like everyone else. The equal protection clause bars Hispanics from being treated differently from other ethnicities.

As an Orthodox Christian, most of my friends and loved ones are either legal immigrants or the children of immigrants. I have little tolerance nor respect for those who willfully disregard the hard work and sacrifice it takes becoming a legal citizen by living here illegally and enabling those who disregard immigration law. It's not worth questioning. The law is the law for a reason:

...having thousands of undocumented immigrants is insane if we are to have a criminal justice system that works. How do I know that Julio isn’t a gang banger who massacres entire classrooms? I don’t. That’s why you need papers to step foot here in the first place.
 
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Ringo84

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You have in implying that they can't learn English and become citizens like everyone else. The equal protection clause bars Hispanics from being treated differently from other ethnicities.

That's completely false. You are putting words into my mouth. I am saying that it's much more difficult to learn a language than you are implying with your posts.

As an Orthodox Christian, most of my friends and loved ones are either legal immigrants or the children of immigrants. I have little tolerance nor respect for those who willfully disregard the hard work and sacrifice it takes becoming a legal citizen by living here illegally and enabling those who disregard immigration law. It's not worth questioning. The law is the law for a reason:

If it's such hard work and sacrifice to become a citizen, have respect for the immigrants who are trying - and struggling - to learn a difficult language!
Ringo
 
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SpyridonOCA

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If it's such hard work and sacrifice to become a citizen, have respect for the immigrants who are trying - and struggling - to learn a difficult language!
Ringo

They deserve the same treatment as everyone else who's attempted to learn English past and present. I'm sorry if I've been mistaken concerning your position.
 
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Spyridon - the problem with the "nation" line you have been taking is that it ignores that fact that the USA is a state, not a nation.

It is a state that has been built upon an existing native population (though "built upon" might be better expressed a phrase which expresses the violence done against them...) by repeated waves of immigration from a wide range of countries, initially the British Isles, but since then from the rest of Europe, from Africa, from Asia and from South America. As such, while there are dominant backrounds/religions/languages/customs/history, due to the dominance of immigrants from a European christian background, the state was founded in such a way that gives legitimacy to citizens from all manner of cultural backgrounds (that is, from many nations of people areound the world).

It is a similar case to my country, Australia, in many ways (the British origins, the treatment of native people, the waves of immigration from various regions of the world...). In both our cases, it is clear that English is the language of the state - it is the language used to pass laws, to communicate laws to people, it is used in our courts... it would be very hard to function in either America or Australia without knowledge of the English language.

In both cases, however, I think it is necessary that we are pragmatic and understanding about the difficulty that this poses to new immigrants. Part of my family migrated to Australia in the 1950s from Italy, and spoke no English. They worked hard, they learned the language as much as they could (they came from poor backgrounds and were coming to Australia in their 20s - it is very hard to learn a new language fluently after childhood), but they now speak English relatively well. That experience would be shared by many. It would be shared by people arriving in our countries today.

The Australian government is generally quite good at recognising the difficulties new migrants face - many government documents are published in other languages (Italian, Greek, Mandarin, Vietnamese, you name it), and in government offices the possibility for the use of an interpreter is often available. This is a recognition that the language learning process is difficult, that many people come to our multicultural country that don't know English, but also that this doesn't mean they should be prejudiced against.

So, English is the language tought in our schools, it is the discourse of public life, but we recognise the practical limitations which are imposed on a nation built on such a diverse background of immigration. I think a similar policy makes sense in a similar state, which America is. In new states like ours, states which are not based around a single nation which has existed with the same language, culture and history in the same place for millennia, but on people from a vast range of backrounds, a state which looks after its citizens should be sensitive to the issue of language and deal with it pragmatically, not by creating a second class of citizen by passing laws in relation to language as are being discussed in this thread.
 
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SpyridonOCA

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So, English is the language tought in our schools, it is the discourse of public life, but we recognise the practical limitations which are imposed on a nation built on such a diverse background of immigration. I think a similar policy makes sense in a similar state, which America is. In new states like ours, states which are not based around a single nation which has existed with the same language, culture and history in the same place for millennia, but on people from a vast range of backrounds, a state which looks after its citizens should be sensitive to the issue of language and deal with it pragmatically, not by creating a second class of citizen by passing laws in relation to language as are being discussed in this thread.

Where does the equal protection clause of the United States Constitution give Hispanics special treatment over other ethnic groups?
 
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SpyridonOCA

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If this nation condoned vigilante justice, I'd support such grassroots organizations as the Minuteman Project. It's not out of hatred for a nation or its people that we need the rule of law. Violent criminals need to be kept out of our communities by any means necessary. It's not that I particularly like the border patrol, the police, or the military.
 
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Where does the equal protection clause of the United States Constitution give Hispanics special treatment over other ethnic groups?

I think you ought to reread my post.

I think I clearly argued that what you call "special treatment" is actually a pragmatic reaction to the state of affairs in a multi-ethnic state built upon waves of immigration all around the world and that ALL ethnic groups deserve to be treated with an awareness of the difficulties in learning a new language.

The Australian government has policies in place to help people from all backgrounds who have come to this country to have access to resources that help them interact with the state in a way (ie. in a language) that they understand. That policy does not favour any ethnic group over any other.
 
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SpyridonOCA

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I think you ought to reread my post.

I think I clearly argued that what you call "special treatment" is actually a pragmatic reaction to the state of affairs in a multi-ethnic state built upon waves of immigration all around the world and that ALL ethnic groups deserve to be treated with an awareness of the difficulties in learning a new language.

The Australian government has policies in place to help people from all backgrounds who have come to this country to have access to resources that help them interact with the state in a way (ie. in a language) that they understand. That policy does not favour any ethnic group over any other.

Can you foresee the absurdity involved by including every possible language? Look at the founding documents of this country. They were not written in Hispanic, French, or any language other than English.
 
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Can you foresee the absurdity involved by including every possible language? Look at the founding documents of this country. They were not written in Hispanic, French, or any language other than English.

The founding documents of my country were written in English too. ;)

There is a 24 hour a day, 7 day a week translation phone line which can assist people with dealings with state services and a quick look showed me that social services information documents are available in Arabic, Assyrian, Bosnian, Chinese, Croatian, Dari, Farsi (Persian), Greek, Italian, Khmer (Cambodian), Korean, Macedonian, Maltese, Polish, Portuguese, Russian, Serbian, Spanish, Tagalog (Filipino), Turkish and Vietnamese.

So, you see absurdity. The Australian government sees possibility.
 
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joebudda

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If your sole loyalty is to Mexico, and all of your earnings are going to Mexico, you need to go back to Mexico. No ethnic group nor nationality deserves special treatment. We are all equal under law, or at least should be.

I have no "loyalty" to any "nation".
Nations are only concepts, they don't really exist out side of our minds. This is why nationalism is stupid. The only thing nationalism does is propagate the "us vs them" mentality.

I hope we will grow up one day and see everyone as individuals. So these people who don't speak "your" language isn't the problem, it is you making it a problem that is the problem.
 
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SpyridonOCA

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I have no "loyalty" to any "nation".
Nations are only concepts, they don't really exist out side of our minds. This is why nationalism is stupid. The only thing nationalism does is propagate the "us vs them" mentality.

I hope we will grow up one day and see everyone as individuals. So these people who don't speak "your" language isn't the problem, it is you making it a problem that is the problem.

We can't have double-standards in how we enforce immigration law. We must either open our borders to all countries or tell Julio to go home.
 
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keith99

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It's not that simple!

If you've ever had to learn a foreign language, you know that it isn't as simple as waving a magic wand and instantly learning english. It takes time, effort, and practice.

You say that potato chip bags are quote-unquote "pandering" to immigrants by displaying multiple languages. I think you need to get over it. Until immigrants learn our language, I don't see any harm in multi language potato chip bags.

This isn't a matter of who "won" or "lost" - it's a matter of having respect for the time it takes to learn a foreign language from scratch.

I recommend you follow the following link and read this article from the Religious Herald. It states the case much better than I can.
Ringo

Serious question. Does having packaging in multiple languages hurt or help those learning English? Think about it for a second. One gets exposed to the main thing one reads, their own language, but they also constantly see the translation. Eventually it startss to register. And of course for the Spanish speaking person eventually they come across something only in English and likely recognize a few words from that bilingual packaging.

BTW I just looked at the Potato chip package I have and unless Plano (a town in Texas) or Frito-lay are Spanish everything is English only. Oh and this is in Los Angeles (yes those 2 words are Spanish). Actually I'm in the San Fernando Valley, that is 2/3 Spanish.
 
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