Another point I think is very compelling is in John 1 everything that we created was created through Him (The Word) and nothing was created without Him (The Word). The second part of the sentence really nails it that Jesus could not be created otherwise this statement in verse 3 is incorrect.
In the beginning was the Word....and the Word was God.
Colossians 2:9
I need to pull it out for reference, but it also refers to scripture like “God with Us” and many other references to God. It’s Theos, not hoYes I also thought this would be a good example but there’s a problem. The Greek text actually say My Lord and my Son of God. Because the Greek word ho G3588 is translated as son of. One example would be John 21:2 the same Greek word ho is used in reference to the sons of Zebedee.
I need to pull it out for reference, but it also refers to scripture like “God with Us” and many other references to God. It’s Theos, not ho
Strong's Greek: 2316. θεός (theos) -- 1327 Occurrences
John 20:28 Interlinear: And Thomas answered and said to him, 'My Lord and my God;'
I need to pull it out for reference, but it also refers to scripture like “God with Us” and many other references to God. It’s Theos, not ho
Strong's Greek: 2316. θεός (theos) -- 1327 Occurrences
John 20:28 Interlinear: And Thomas answered and said to him, 'My Lord and my God;'
They've been well indoctrinated in ways to (in their view) prove Jesus is "a" God.
While I believe all doctrine is important (and do not deny the importance of understanding the divinity of Jesus) - I believe you would be better served concentrating on preaching to them the pure and simple gospel of salvation by grace.
People can be saved while still not understanding the hypo-static union and whatever else there is to understand about Jesus. There were (I believe) multiplied thousands in the first couple of hundred years of the church who had not yet worked these doctrines out.
Concentrate on "getting them saved" by their trusting only on the work of Christ as their only hope of salvation. Assuming they will receive the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation as the scriptures teach - He will lead them into truth on the matter of the nature of God as well as any other errors they had once believed.
The man who came from God in John 1 was John the Baptist, not Jesus, so that is of little help to you.
Please remember that the JWs, specifically Charles Russell, went on their own and translated the original Greek into whatever they wanted it to mean. In doing so, they are arguing against the earliest Christians whose native language was the original Greek.
So the next time the JWs want to argue Christian theology tell them to take it up with the native Greek speakers and tell them to stop trying to put words in their mouths.
They think Jesus was the Archangel Michael, so you can show the verse where Michael didn't say anything to Satan because he didn't have authority and then look for a passage Jesus is commanding through his own authority.
Hi @BNR32FAN, here's a short article about the Witnesses' NWT Bible, half of which is devoted to their intentionally incorrect translation John 1:1.
Is the New World Translation a valid version of the Bible?
--David
We believe in Incarnation and not theophany. By theophany I mean when God appears as a man, as at times in the OT.
Had Jesus simply said "I am God" people would have assumed he was speaking of a theophany, and not accepted his full humanity. Hence he and the various NT authors show us many implications of the Incarnation, Jesus acting as God, being God with us, but also show him as a man. The most explicit is probably John. The Word, who is God, became flesh and dwelt among us.
Hebrews 1
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
After centuries of discussion, theologians came to say that the eternal Logos assumed humanity. Not just abstract humanity, but an actual human body, soul, etc, living an actual human life. Once you have the whole theological framework you can speak of Jesus as God, and people know what you mean. They know you don't mean that this human is invisible and immortal, but rather that the humanity is one part of a whole God-man, and this whole person is God.But these verses don’t actually say Jesus is God. They say He is begotten of God.
If you can't find sufficient evidence to support the Trinity - you just don't want to find it. The evidence does not depend on John 1 not saying "a" God. John 1 could say "a" God and the Trinity would still be all over the scriptures.........If I can’t find sufficient evidence to support the Trinity then I can’t accept it as being true. I would have to remain neutral about it and chalk it up as something I cannot believe in or teach to others if I cannot support it with the scriptures.
Darn tootin.........Luckily I still believe that John 1:3 and One God are both very strong evidence.
There are lots of them not the least of which is ""Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood."........I’m just surprised that so far I’m unable to find anything conclusive that openly states Jesus is God in the Greek text.
Exactly, The God with us - definitely seems to show that it is “The” God, not just “a” God.Argh Matthew 1:23 also shows ho before theos
Matthew 1:23
23 ‘Lo, the virgin shall conceive, and she shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel,’ which is, being interpreted ‘With us [he is] God.’
23 Ἰδοὺ (behold) G3708 V-AMA-2S ἡ (the) G3588 Art-NFS παρθένος (virgin) G3933 N-NFS ἐν (child) G1722 Prep γαστρὶ (belly) G1064 N-DFS ἕξει (have) G2192 V-FIA-3S καὶ (and) G2532 Conj τέξεται (bear) G5088 V-FIM-3S υἱόν (Son) G5207 N-AMS καὶ (and) G2532 Conj καλέσουσιν (call) G2564 V-FIA-3P τὸ (the) G3588 Art-ANS ὄνομα (name) G3686 N-ANS αὐτοῦ (his) G846 PPro-GM3S Ἐμμανουήλ (Immanuel) G1694 N ὅ (which) G3739 RelPro-NNS ἐστιν (is) G1510 V-PI-3S μεθερμηνευόμενον (translated) G3177 V-PPM/P-NNS Μεθ’ (with) G3326 Prep ἡμῶν (us) G1473 PPro-G1P ὁ (the) G3588 Art-NMS θεός (God) G2316 N-NMS
I’d say that calling Him Emmanuel - God with Us as the prophecy - is pretty strong evidence as well. It essentially says - He is God.I agree that salvation is not dependent upon understanding the Trinity. I’m more concerned about this pertaining to my own beliefs. If I can’t find sufficient evidence to support the Trinity then I can’t accept it as being true. I would have to remain neutral about it and chalk it up as something I cannot believe in or teach to others if I cannot support it with the scriptures. Luckily I still believe that John 1:3 and One God are both very strong evidence. I’m just surprised that so far I’m unable to find anything conclusive that openly states Jesus is God in the Greek text.
Why do you think “Ho” before Theos is evidence that it is not referencing “the” God? All it means is “the” - the definitive article. So yes, the sons of Zebedee”....that would be an accurate word (ho).Again the word ho is before theos.
The word, rather article, ὁ is more or less the equivalent of the English article the. It doesn't imply Son of. If that were the intended meaning it should have been written as follows:According to the Greek text John 1:1 should be translated as The Word was with God and The Word was the Son of God because the word ho 3588 precedes theos.
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