Please help me figure this out!

Bible Highlighter · Jun 16, 2023

ladodgers6 said:
As I said before, I can resonate with you, because I fought hard to refute Classical Calvinism

No. Your situation is not the same as mine because if you understand Calvinism the way I do, you would not let Calvinism get a stronghold in your thinking. Also, consider that John Calvin is not the person you think he is, either.

John Calvin justified killing his theological opponents with the Bible

Do you know which Bible verse John Calvin used to encourage killing people who had different theology?

www.reenactingtheway.com

ladodgers6 said:
(I am not a Hyper-Calvinist). Classical Calvinism does not deny Free-Will. Sinners choose willingly to sin, they are not coerced to sin. But by nature sinners sin, this is the fallen disposition of a fallen humanity in Adam. Having a weak view of the gravity of sin leads to a weak view of God's Amazing Grace!

My point was that Calvinists falsely believe that there is no free will when it comes to choosing God.
So you believe that the sinner can choose God of their own free will?
The verses I posted dealt with how we have free will in regards to our choosing God.

ladodgers6 said:
Well there's a lot to address here. First you say for the Majority; why not for "ALL"?

Because of Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8.
In the future there will be those who will worship the beast and these types of people never had their names in the Lamb’s book of life since the foundation of the world. So this is not Unconditional Reprobation as Calvinism teaches but it is Conditional. God knew the kind of horrible evil choice they were going to make in the future of their own free will choice (By their rejection of Christ and their worship of the beast), and by this one exceptionally evil choice, they had no chance at eternal life. However, everybody else had their name in the book of life at one point in time. Meaning, as a baby the majority of people throughout history and today were once saved before they reached the age that they would be held accountable to their sin. Names are blotted out because of sin. But names can be placed back if they repent and accept Jesus Christ as their Savior in this life.

ladodgers6 said:
Second, reading this I get the impression that you do not have a view that God has a Plan of Redemption. But rather, Christ only made Salvation possible. So, I'll ask you, does does Unrestricted Initial Drawing & Illumination accomplish if anything? I ask because the Arminian view Prevenient Grace, is not effectual in saving anyone.

I am not an Arminian clone. But please keep in mind that I despise all 5 points of Calvinism, and find them to be unbiblical and immoral. As I told you before. I don’t believe in using the words “Prevenient Grace” because grace is dealing with salvation. So this term by Arminians is incorrect. I already shown you the verses how salvation is tied to God’s grace. It’s up to you on whether or not you believe those verses. Anyways, the Arminian who came up with this term called “Prevenient Grace” did not know his Bible in that God’s grace is dealing with salvation. So please do not bring up the term “Prevenient Grace” as if that is a term I accept. I don’t accept it. Even unbelievers are without excuse that there is a God by the creation according to Romans 1.

Does God‘s Unrestricted Initial Drawings & Illumination accomplish anything? Yes, it does. The success rate is not high in these last days.

1 Timothy 4:1
“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly,
that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith,
giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;”

Remember, Jesus words. Jesus said “…when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?” (Luke 18:8). Jesus said, “narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” (Matthew 7:14).

In the Parable of the Sower, we learn that not all the seeds that started to grow (i.e., have life because they were saved initially by God’s grace) had continued with the Lord and His Word because one seed had fallen away due to the cares and riches of this life. Another seed fell away due to not wanting to be persecuted for the cause of Christ. Seeds fall away but there was a seed that was fruitful and remained until the end. So your assessment of my belief that God’s success rate may seem smaller, but He still has a success rate nonetheless. In fact, we can see that there are many saints mentioned in Revelation 7:9 and so clearly God will succeed. But Revelation 7:9 is talking about those believers who will come out of the great tribulation period (See: Revelation 7:13-14). But we need to know that Revelation 2-3 still holds true. Most churches before the Tribulation period are not getting things right. Thus, they will not make it into the Kingdom unless they repent.

ladodgers6 said:
Though ambiguous and perplexing teach that Prevenient Grace is illuminated. How? If a sinner is illuminated by God's truth in mind, heart and Spirit. Why would anyone choose to reject it, knowing the consequences of that decision?

Because of their sin. They prefer their sin over God. That is why they will reject Jesus. The young rich ruler wanted the sin of his riches (i.e., the love of money) instead of giving them up to follow Jesus. It was not because the young rich ruler was depraved and incapable of coming to the Lord. If that was the case, then the lesson or moral of the story would not make any sense in Matthew 19. In fact, in Matthew 23:37,

Jesus says,
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me.” (Matthew 23:37) (NLT).

Jesus is God, and yet the inhabitants of Jerusalem at that time would not allow Jesus (GOD) to be gathered beneath His wings of protection. Meaning, they did not want to become saved by their own Messiah at that moment in time. THEY would not let (or allow) Jesus to come into their life whereby they could be saved. It was their choice! Not God’s choice! This is a verse you have to twist like a pretzel in order to make your Calvinistic theological model work. The plain reading of verses like this have to be distorted.

ladodgers6 said:
This does not help your position, but on the contrary, it highlights that fallen man does not want or desire God!

Your reasoning is flawed. You act like I don’t believe the other parts of the Bible where the saints are in great number like in Revelation 7:9. Obviously God has a success rate even with their few being saved in these last days. But if you were to look at Revelation chapters 2 and 3, you will learn that most churches were not getting it right.

ladodgers6 said:
21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

You are focusing a laser beam another part of the text while ignoring the verses right before it in what they say.

Romans 1:19-20

19 ”Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:”

In Calvinism, the damned or wicked had no choice to choose Christ and so they cannot be held accountable about the existence of God because they are Totally Depraved (According to Calvinism). In the upside down world of Calvinism: They would need a regeneration to be held accountable to know about GOD.

Just stop reading your Bible with a Calvinistic mindset and just read the Bible at face value.
But you cannot do that. You want Calvinism to be true for some odd reason (Even if it does not fit the facts of Scripture).

ladodgers6 said:
I have already address this before. God will not lower his standard of holiness to allow us into heaven. Nor will he do away with His Holy character and will (Law). Just because we are not able to fulfill it. It's like saying to a serial killer, since you cannot abide by the Law not to kill, it doesn't apply to you anymore. Your view and the common consensus about Total Depravity is misrepresented. Total Depravity doesn't mean that we can be as bad as we can possibly be, rather it's that sin has affect every faculty of our being. There is no part that hasn't been affect by sin. It's not that only a part of us is broken, but the whole person from head to toe has been affected by sin. The core being the heart & mind.

So you believe a serial killer can still do his killings and still be saved if he believes the teachings of Calvinism?

ladodgers6 said:
Paul illustrates our fallen condition in Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

You quote the Bible and it refutes your belief.
Verse 2 says in which you ONCE WALKED.
Meaning, their sins are a part of their old life and not their new life in Christ.
Does that mean a believer may not struggle to put away sin at times? No.
But if a believer does not live holy in this life, they are not going to make it into the Kingdom.
Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.
This includes me, you, and every other believer on the planet.
I am not above God’s Word anymore than you are.

ladodgers6 said:
So is there anyone excluded in what Paul says above?

Well Sir, this is very misleading. Jesus cursed the physical descendants of Abraham, and called them the children of the devil (John 8). And he finished the admonishing by saying, "47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

Galatians 3:16
”Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.”

Notice that Galatians 3:16 makes a point about how Paul makes a reference to the OT about how it says ”seed” (singular), and not ”seeds” (plural).

Modern Translations change the OT reference of Galatians 3:16. Modern Translations falsely change Genesis 12:7 to be rendered as “descendants” and or “offspring.” This is incorrect. The King James Bible correctly renders this as “seed” in Genesis 12:7 so as to refer to Jesus Christ (Seed - which is singular). Yes, Abraham’s descendants will be as the stars, but this is made possible from the SEED (Jesus Christ).

Colossians 2:11
”In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:”

Romans 2:29
”But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”

So those who are born of God HEAR (OBEY) God’s Word. These Jews did not obey God’s words but they obeyed the lusts of their father by sinning. Jesus told them that he that sins is a servant (slave) to sin. Jesus said that this slave to sin will not abide in the house forever (i.e., the house of Christ forever) (See John 8:34-35). In Matthew 12:41-42, we learn that the Son of Man (JESUS) will send forth His angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all who do iniquity (sin) and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e., the Lake of Fire).

So believers who justify the idea that they can sin and still be saved (Instead of confessing and forsaking sin and seeking to overcome sin in this life) are not going to make it into God’s Kingdom. This is why Jesus said narrow is the way and FEW be there that find it. Most Christians love to defend the idea that they can sin and still be saved.

Even John Piper teaches one can sin and still be saved.

Referring to sin, John Piper (a Calvinist) said:

”I don’t have them anymore,

I still do them,

but I don’t have them,

they are not on me.”

~ Quote by John Piper.

This is a violation of Jude 1:4 in that there are those who turn God’s grace into a license for immorality.
Titus 2:11-12 tells us that God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world.

Paul says shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? God forbid (Romans 6:1-2).
Romans 6:16 says, “…his servants ye are to whom ye obey;…”

Side Note:

Please keep in mind that I do not agree with everything the host of the YouTube video believes (whose name is Adam).
I believe the Bible teaches we are saved by two aspects of salvation, while I could be wrong, Adam does not appear to believe that way.

ladodgers6 said:
Another example is John 10, where the Jews were trying to trick and trap Jesus in blasphemy. Here's the interaction:

If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Again, this is refuted by the fact that Judas was once called a sheep in Matthew 10:16 (cf. Matthew 10:5), and yet he fell away by his transgression. So one can start off as a sheep and later become a goat by their wrong beliefs and or actions.

The Parable of the Prodigal Son clearly teaches that when the son came home (seeking forgiveness) the father said to his son that he was dead and he is ALIVE AGAIN. This is speaking in spiritual terms. The son was dead and lost while he was living it up with prostitutes and he became alive AGAIN (a second time) on a spiritual level because he came back home to his father, and sought forgiveness with him. James 5:19-20 teaches a similar truth. A person can go from spiritual life to spiritual death, and back again. This is what the Bible teaches but many today reject it because they like the idea of holding on to their sin while also holding on to some imaginary “get out of hell card.”

Bible Highlighter · Jun 16, 2023

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day,

If you are going to quote someone at least give some context, with the source.

A Defense of Calvinism

www.romans45.org

The prince of Preachers:

"The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox's gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again."—C. H. Spurgeon

"What is the heresy of Rome, but the addition of something to the perfect merits of Jesus Christ—the bringing in of the works of the flesh, to assist in our justification? And what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer? Every heresy, if brought to the touchstone, will discover itself here. I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor."

Sorry, these quotes do not in any way undo what I have said in regards to Spurgeon. He believes Calvinism is the gospel and nothing else. Yet, Paul says the gospel is believing that Christ died for our sins, he was buried, and risen the third day (for our salvation).

Bible Highlighter · Jun 16, 2023

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day,

No body denies that Man has the ability to choose (freewill).

What one can not deny is that the will is effected by things that we can not control and external to us. Also that the will is influenced and informed by both the minds and the heart of man.

Man always will choose that which he desires and does so freely. Adam and Eve did choose to sin because that is what they wanted.

No one can choose that which they do not desire/ want.

Men love darkness and hate light so freely they choose darkness because they love it and desire it, they can do no other.

In Him,

Bill

Again, I am referring to the fact that one has free will when they choose God (Which is what Calvinists deny).
The verses I posted prove this fact that believers have free will when it comes to choosing God.

Lost Witness · Jun 16, 2023

Bible Highlighter said:
@maves

The only way a person believes Calvinism is if…

(a) One has a mindset or predisposition in desiring God to be unjustly forceful,
and they falsely read certain verses in the wrong way (Which are not many).
(b) One has learned the teachings from the Canons of Dort, Calvinistic writings, or Calvinistic preachers.

Without these two things, a person would not believe in Calvinism. They would just believe the Bible as a whole plainly, and they would not try and fight and explain away the verses that refutes Calvinism like 2 Thessalonians 2:10, Jonah 3:6-10, Genesis 4:6-7, and Matthew 23:37. There are more verses that refutes Calvinism than any verses that appears to support it. Only Romans 9 sounds like Calvinism at first glance and this is easily refuted if one reads the end of the chapter and reads it in context to the other chapters. But because certain popular religious men in history believed it, they are impressed. I would rather believe in the Word of God. I am not going to be held accountable to God if I did not believe John Calvin. Jesus basically says in John 12:48 if we do not receive His words, those words by Him will judge us on the last day. So we have to receive the words of Jesus and not Calvinists.

However, if a person has been conditioned heavily by Calvinism, it is hard for one to escape its grasp.
Once God reveals the truth about Calvinism to a person, they will not want to have anything to do with it anymore.
They will see Calvinism for what it is. God’s Word will reign supreme over it, if indeed that person truly values the truth of what His Word actually says. If truth of God’s Word is not important to a person, then they will just keep believing in Calvinism. Yes, I know Calvinists have made the claim they are for the Bible, but anyone can say that these days. We are told in Scripture to test all things (1 Thessalonians 5:21). Are there people who appear to be loving and good in Calvinism? Sure. But truth is not determined this way. God’s Word is our ultimate standard.

How do those verses refute God choosing his elect?
"This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day"

ladodgers6 · Jun 16, 2023

Lost Witness said:
How do those verses refute God choosing his elect?
"This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day"

Excellent reply! They do not believe that God has a Plan of Redemption, and that this Plan of Redemption was finished at the Cross! Genesis 3:15, God promises to send a seed that will rescue them from their sins! Galatians also speaks of the promised seed, that has come to redeem God's people from the curse of the Law.

This is the will of the Father, and Christ makes numerous accounts that he came to do not his will, but the One who sent him. And the will of the Father is that Christ will redeem all those whom the Father gave to him to save. And he shall lose none of them, and nobody can snatch them out of his hand or his Father's hand! This is God's Word; His Oath; His Promise; His Covenant!

Bible Highlighter · Jun 16, 2023

Lost Witness said:
How do those verses refute God choosing his elect?
"This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day"

John 6:37-40 says,

37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

First, what does Jesus mean by,

“All that the Father giveth me come to me?”

Well, we have to understand that the Father elects those based on His future foreknowledge of our free will choice concerning Him (1 Peter 1:2) (Deuteronomy 30:19). Also, we also have to understand that not everyone is going to be saved; However, it is God's will that all people should be saved, though (1 Timothy 2:4) (2 Peter 3:9) (Revelation 22:17). This is why we read in Scripture about how many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 20:16).

Same meanings since all are given the chance to have life through Jesus. But those who are His have come so willingly in faith, repenting and turning with a sincere heart; forever to the submission of God’s commandments and desires.

Verse 39 implies that it is possible for Jesus to lose some of the flock. If it were not so, He would have said so. But if what you say is true, then Jesus would have said,

"I WILL lose nothing."

However, that is not what Jesus said. Jesus says,

"I SHOULD lose nothing."

John 6:39 (KJV) says,

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

Second, eternal life here is not a guarantee. Jesus says in verse 40

"MAY have everlasting life".

John 6:40
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

In other words, Jesus should lose none and all who are His should be raised, because they should all continue in the righteousness God gave them through the sacrifice of Jesus. It’s not that Jesus isn’t capable of keeping up with His sheep; it’s that He never keeps His sheep against their wills. How so?

Well, we see in Scripture that the Father gave all of the disciples to Jesus; However, Jesus kept them all except Judas, though.

John 17:12 says:

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

Now, allow me to rephrase this in modern-terminology:

While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, but the green marble.

And OSAS terminology:

While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, except for the green marble that you never gave me.

Do you see now how OSAS doesn't make any sense?

Old Source Link Used:
http://conditionalsalvation.com/
(Note: Website no longer active)

Side Note:

Yes, I know OSAS is not exactly like POTS, but they are almost identical.
The only major difference between the two is the component of faith being involved or not.
In either case, both OSAS, and POTS are gross distortions of God’s Word!
Jesus warned against how sin can destroy our souls in Matthew 5:28-30!!!
This also includes the apostle Paul, too (See 1 Timothy 5:8)!!!

Bible Highlighter · Jun 16, 2023

Lost Witness said:
How do those verses refute God choosing his elect?
"This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day"

If you believe that God chooses His elect based on no conditions, this would contradict Peter saying that God elects according to the foreknowledge of God the Father in 1 Peter 1:1-2.

But the verses I put forth are specifically showing how Calvinism is not true in the sense that God elects some to salvation and others to damnation.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 says,
”And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;
because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

Notice what this verse says.
The first half of the verse sounds like it is talking about the wicked and how they are perishing.
The second half of the verse describes WHY they are perishing. Nothing is mentioned here about them being elected to damnation or how they were not chosen to salvation by God as to the reason WHY they are perishing. It says the reason WHY they are perishing is because THEY received not the love of the truth. It was not God’s fault. It was their fault. They did not receive the love of the truth, which is why they are perishing. God is blaming them for not receiving the love of the truth and God is not saying that they are perishing because they were not chosen. This verse also says that they MIGHT be saved. There is no MIGHT be saved in Calvinism. It does not exist, and yet that is what my Bible says.

Do you really want me to explain the other verses?
I can, but you have to keep an open mind about my plain reading of those verses.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 16, 2023

ladodgers6 said:
Excellent reply! They do not believe that God has a Plan of Redemption, and that this Plan of Redemption was finished at the Cross! Genesis 3:15, God promises to send a seed that will rescue them from their sins! Galatians also speaks of the promised seed, that has come to redeem God's people from the curse of the Law.

This is the will of the Father, and Christ makes numerous accounts that he came to do not his will, but the One who sent him. And the will of the Father is that Christ will redeem all those whom the Father gave to him to save. And he shall lose none of them, and nobody can snatch them out of his hand or his Father's hand! This is God's Word; His Oath; His Promise; His Covenant!

Yet, in Genesis 3, Satan got Adam and Eve to buy into the lie that they will not die if they break God’s command. This is the same lie that is being pushed by the devil today.

ladodgers6 · Jun 16, 2023

Bible Highlighter said:
John 6:37-40 says,

37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

First, what does Jesus mean by,

“All that the Father giveth me come to me?”

Well, we have to understand that the Father elects those based on His future foreknowledge of our free will choice concerning Him (1 Peter 1:2) (Deuteronomy 30:19). Also, we also have to understand that not everyone is going to be saved; However, it is God's will that all people should be saved, though (1 Timothy 2:4) (2 Peter 3:9) (Revelation 22:17). This is why we read in Scripture about how many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 20:16).

Same meanings since all are given the chance to have life through Jesus. But those who are His have come so willingly in faith, repenting and turning with a sincere heart; forever to the submission of God’s commandments and desires.

Verse 39 implies that it is possible for Jesus to lose some of the flock. If it were not so, He would have said so. But if what you say is true, then Jesus would have said,

"I WILL lose nothing."

However, that is not what Jesus said. Jesus says,

"I SHOULD lose nothing."

John 6:39 (KJV) says,

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

Second, eternal life here is not a guarantee. Jesus says in verse 40

"MAY have everlasting life".

John 6:40
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

In other words, Jesus should lose none and all who are His should be raised, because they should all continue in the righteousness God gave them through the sacrifice of Jesus. It’s not that Jesus isn’t capable of keeping up with His sheep; it’s that He never keeps His sheep against their wills. How so?

Well, we see in Scripture that the Father gave all of the disciples to Jesus; However, Jesus kept them all except Judas, though.

John 17:12 says:

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

Now, allow me to rephrase this in modern-terminology:

While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, but the green marble.

And OSAS terminology:

While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, except for the green marble that you never gave me.

Do you see now how OSAS doesn't make any sense?

Old Source Link Used:
http://conditionalsalvation.com/
(Note: Website no longer active)

Side Note:

Yes, I know OSAS is not exactly like POTS, but they are almost identical.
The only major difference between the two is the component of faith being involved or not.
In either case, both OSAS, and POTS are gross distortions of God’s Word!
Jesus warned against how sin can destroy our souls in Matthew 5:28-30!!!
This also includes the apostle Paul, too (See 1 Timothy 5:8)!!!

I think I can make an assumption that you do not agree that God has a Plan of redemption, correct?

ladodgers6 · Jun 16, 2023

Bible Highlighter said:
Yet, in Genesis 3, Satan got Adam and Eve to buy into the lie that they will not die if they break God’s command. This is the same lie that is being pushed by the devil today.

Adam broke God's Covenant in the garden, which rendered a sanction for breaching it, which brought upon us all the curse of the Law.

ladodgers6 · Jun 17, 2023

maves said:
But your first premise is incorrect. Arminians do not affirm Total Depravity. They affirm Partial Depravity. Thus, your conclusion is unfounded.

Classical Arminianism does hold to Total Depravity, which is why they have a major issue of how a sinner is saved. They refuse to admit that a sinner must be regenerated prior to faith. Which is why they teach partial regeneration, which still doesn't help their case. In fact, it does more harm than good. How? It turns Salvation by works, rather than salvation by Grace Alone. They say they do not believe in salvation by works, but when pressed they come to a Synergistic Salvation, which is Salvation by Works. And contradicts their paradigm of Total Depravity. And this is the reason why I am not an Arminian anymore.

maves said:
However, I affirm that people sin and are unable to redeem themselves by any of their own efforts. They are totally depraved, innately corrupted, and completely sinful!

This does not mean, though, that they are (1) unable to know God's righteousness or (2) hear the call of the Gospel and repent!

Without the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit replacing our hearts of stone, and renewing our minds in the knowledge of the Lord, nobody will know God or even want to know him; especially trust him. The fallen disposition of our hearts and minds are veiled in darkness and sin. We are sworn enemies and hostile towards God. Which is why a Mediator is needed between God and Man; a Peace Maker; a God-Man who redeems us through his blood and a Propitiation; by His wounds we our healed. Having a weak view of the gravity of sin leads to a weak view of God's amazing Grace and Mercy.

maves said:
(1) People are responsible, or as Romans 1 puts it, "without excuse". People know God, for "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them". Yes, we are born with a sinful nature, but we are not born suppressing the truth. Rather, through our unrighteousness, we come to suppress the truth. God is patient and "long-suffering" with us, but if we are stubborn, keep hardening our hearts, and resist the Holy Spirit (As Stephen rebukes the crowd in Acts 7:51: "You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!"), He will give them up to their own debased mind and hardened heart.
No one seeks for God, but God can be "clearly perceived" in the world He has created and especially in the person of Jesus Christ, for "in Him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily".

Yes, agreed! But they chose freely not to give honor and glory to God! Because of their rebellious fallen condition. They chose instead to give glory to images that resemble mortal man. Does this sound familiar? Didn't the serpent say to Adam & Eve, that they will be like gods? They do not want or desire God, because of their futile minds and hearts made of stone. They seek only passions of the flesh and of the mind. Their fallen condition is only resistance to the Lord!

maves said:
(2) Everyone can hear the command of Jesus to repent and believe, for "the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people"!! Now, let us proclaim, "let the wicked forsake their ways / and the unrighteous their thoughts. / Let them turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on them, / and to our God, for he will freely pardon".
Jesus Himself has said "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself".

Yes agreed again, the Gospel is an external call proclaim to every living creature, as God commands us to preach it to everyone. But only God's sheep will hear his voice and follow.

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

John 8:47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

maves said:
Praise the Lord, for He has drawn me, too, and He will raise me up on the Last Day! I do not know everything about how I came to faith, but all that I know is that God drew me to Himself, I have faith in Christ's sacrifice, and I am justified by faith in Him, not by any work of my own. Praise God!

I humbly learn and seek to know more and more about our great God. Praise Him!

I hope this was helpful!

Amen! You are saved because of God's Amazing Grace & Mercy he shows to the ungodly! Knowing that there is nothing good in us, and that he sent his only Son to be punished in your place, so that you may be righteous before God by Christ's imputed righteousness received through Faith Alone apart from works. This eschatological event of end time judgement comes in the present time, declaring you righteous right now because of Christ Alone! So, now there is no more condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus! How marvelous is that? How amazing is that?

Now being justified by Christ Alone, and being baptized into his death, live to God, freely knowing that there is no more condemnation but Life! So walk in holiness and give honor, glory, and praise to God every single day!

And read, hear, the Gospel every single day!

ladodgers6 · Jun 18, 2023

Bible Highlighter said:
No. Your situation is not the same as mine because if you understand Calvinism the way I do, you would not let Calvinism get a stronghold in your thinking. Also, consider that John Calvin is not the person you think he is, either.

John Calvin justified killing his theological opponents with the Bible

Do you know which Bible verse John Calvin used to encourage killing people who had different theology?

www.reenactingtheway.com

If I had a nickel for every time I heard this propaganda I would be a millionaire. Michael Servetus and John Calvin were friends, and they exchanged several correspondence on theology. Calvin advised Michael not to go public with his theology. Servetus took Calvin's advice lightly and was accused of heresy by the Romans Catholic Church and sentenced to death. Calvin pleaded for his friend's case, but was denied. Calvin then pleaded to have his friend beheaded instead of being burned at the stake. Calvin didn't want to see his friend suffer at the stake. Being beheaded is a quick painless death.

I have a request, if you can define what "Unrestricted Initial Illumination" is? How does it work? Is it effectual? If so, how? What is its purpose?

Thanks in advance.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 18, 2023

ladodgers6 said:
If I had a nickel for every time I heard this propaganda I would be a millionaire. Michael Servetus and John Calvin were friends, and they exchanged several correspondence on theology. Calvin advised Michael not to go public with his theology. Servetus took Calvin's advice lightly and was accused of heresy by the Romans Catholic Church and sentenced to death. Calvin pleaded for his friend's case, but was denied. Calvin then pleaded to have his friend beheaded instead of being burned at the stake. Calvin didn't want to see his friend suffer at the stake. Being beheaded is a quick painless death.

Just as Catholics have their own version of history, I believe there is one for the Calvinists. So we have conflicting narratives in history. You side with the narrative you want to be true. History is written by the victors or by men. This is why man-made history is secondary to the Bible for me. But you cannot alter the Bible (Which I see Calvinists changing or ignoring verses to fit their own narrative. Again, here are verses that they either ignore or they come up with an oddball interpretation that goes beyond the plain reading of the text, such as: 2 Thessalonians 2:10, Matthew 23:37, Jonah 3:6-10, Genesis 4:5-7, and Deuteronomy 30:19). You also cannot fake the fruit (of which I have encountered by a good number of Calvinists over the years. My experience with them is that they are cold, mean, and or not being able to grasp basic morality even when I describe it to them using real world examples). So this is why I can see the historical narrative of Calvin killing his theologically opponents as being true because I see the bad fruit by Calvinists today. Granted, I am not saying all Calvinists are this way. I have encountered some Calvinists who appear to be nice. But I believe that if one believes God ordains sin and or evil (like Piper and many other Calvinists teach - of which I have actual quotes of them saying so), then that naturally affects their behavior and or outlook in life.

ladodgers6 said:
I have a request, if you can define what "Unrestricted Initial Illumination" is? How does it work?

Christ draws all men unto Himself (John 12:32). The Calvinist does not accept the normal childlike reading of this verse but they take “all” to mean “the Elect.” The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin because they are not believing on Jesus (John 16:8-9). The Calvinist again must reinterpret this word “world” as “the Elect” or as something else because the plain reading of this word does not fit their narrative. Many are called, few are chosen (Matthew 22:14). Again, how does this concept work in Calvinism? It doesn’t. So there is no plain reading of the text here and therefore it must be altered to fit Calvinism (eisegesis). Then we have Revelation 3:20. Jesus knocks at the door of a particular church that needs to repent and desires to come in. For they were lukewarm, they were going to be spewed out of His mouth. This is why salvation is conditional and not unconditional as many falsely teach today. We are told to choose this day in whom we will serve (Joshua 24:15). That statement does not make a whole lot of sense in Calvinism. But of course one can do backflip twists with the plain reading of these kinds of statements in God’s Word. Just know that its not about convincing me, but its about convincing God. This is something that I believe that you cannot do in all honesty when we all stand before Him.

There are times we read about how God opened the heart of Lydia (Acts 16:14). But this was not described as hostile takeover or brainwashing type event. Her heart needed to opened to hear the message. But is this for all people? Well, Christ draws all men unto Himself (John 12:32). This is everyone and so everyone will have a chance. I also hold to the belief that “the work of God” for us to believe is God’s work (John 6:29). Faith is everything in your Bible. The Bible is the faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). We could not believe if there was no Bible to believe or have faith in. God provided the Bible for us to have faith. So I could not believe without the Bible of which He provided. I was also drawn by Christ (of which I could not believe without this drawing). I also was convicted of my sin by the Spirit (of which I could not believe without this conviction of my sin). My heart was opened to what His Word said. But it was my free will choice to decide to accept His Word or not under this drawing and illumination of what His Word said. It was my choice to respond favorably to the conviction of my sin by the Spirit by seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus. I was not forced against my will. It was not a hostile take over. If it was, then I would no longer remember the kind of person that I was. God brought me to a point whereby I was able to believe in Him, but then it was up to me to decide to actually believe or not. Yes, God decided at the right time in my life to bring me to the faith, but I still needed to choose to accept Him. It was not like I blacked out and I did not know what happened.

ladodgers6 said:
Is it effectual? If so, how?

Obviously if we see a great revival happen during the Tribulation period, then it is effectual (See again Revelation 7:9-14).
As to how it is effectual?
Ask God. I did not write His Word. He did.
Many will be saved in the tribulation period.
While this is just a theory: I imagine many will be convinced to be saved during this time because many of the things mentioned in the book of Revelation will be seen all around you. Of course the Calvinist would just say that God just decides to just do whatever pleases. So there is no real rhyme or reason as to why in the Bizarro world of Calvinism.

ladodgers6 said:
What is its purpose?

The goal of course is to get a person saved by their exercising faith in Him by believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. But it is by their free will choice. I have already provided free will verses in us choosing God already in this thread recently. Also, Romans 5:2 says that we gain access to God’s grace through faith. But Calvinists really are either unaware of this verse and or they simply do not believe it (Whereby they must alter the plain reading of the text again).

ladodgers6 · Jun 18, 2023

Bible Highlighter said:
Just as Catholics have their own version of history, I believe there is one for the Calvinists. So we have conflicting narratives in history. You side with the narrative you want to be true. History is written by the victors or by men. This is why man-made history is secondary to the Bible for me. But you cannot alter the Bible (Which I see Calvinists changing or ignoring verses to fit their own narrative. Again, here are verses that they either ignore or they come up with an oddball interpretation that goes beyond the plain reading of the text, such as: 2 Thessalonians 2:10, Matthew 23:37, Jonah 3:6-10, Genesis 4:5-7, and Deuteronomy 30:19). You also cannot fake the fruit (of which I have encountered by a good number of Calvinists over the years. My experience with them is that they are cold, mean, and or not being able to grasp basic morality even when I describe it to them using real world examples). So this is why I can see the historical narrative of Calvin killing his theologically opponents as being true because I see the bad fruit by Calvinists today. Granted, I am not saying all Calvinists are this way. I have encountered some Calvinists who appear to be nice. But I believe that if one believes God ordains sin and or evil (like Piper and many other Calvinists teach - of which I have actual quotes of them saying so), then that naturally affects their behavior and or outlook in life.

You got the Michael Servetus & John Calvin story wrong my friend. You seek with anger in your heart to disprove Calvinism at all cost even if it means posting false and misleading information with no evidence to support such claims. Just like I did, when I was on a mission to destroy Calvinism as well. But if you are not afraid of seeking and finding the truth, without bias, or agendas, then seek it. Because if you have the truth nothing can change that. But if you are intentionally lying and bearing false witness, then what's the purpose? What are you scared of?

In my experience especially in these forums not only are Calvinists mean-spirited, belittling, insulting, name call, and so forth. It's everybody for the most part act the same way. So, please, don't say you don't act this way either. Because I am guilty of it myself. But I came to learn not too. I believe we can have a dialogue and share what we believe and why we believe it. Judging others is a hypocritical non-christian trait. My wife asked aren't we discussing God in these forums? I said yes. She asked why are people so mean, doesn't make any sense, they sure don't act like Christians to me, she said. And she's right.

So let's make a deal before we continue our conversation. Let's be cordial and courtesy; treat each other with respect; like gentlemen; like Christians. Deal? And if not it's okay, I'll bid you a farewell.

Carl Emerson · Jun 18, 2023

ladodgers6 said:
Let's be cordial and courtesy; treat each other with respect; like gentlemen; like Christians. Deal?

Tried that, but was put on ignore...

Some folks claim a position of Holy Hatred when it is self righteous assumption sadly...

ladodgers6 · Jun 18, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
Tried that, but was put on ignore...

Some folks claim a position of Holy Hatred when it is self righteous assumption sadly...

I prefer the quiet, than fighting, and being mean-spirited. It's best to walk away than engage people who are not aware of the facts. Because their only mission is to fight and be mean-spirited. And that is not the fruit of the Spirit.

But thanks for the heads up. It's nice to meet you. May I ask you about your back round?

DingDing · Jun 19, 2023

maves said:
Hello everyone!
I am really struggling with the concepts in Calvinism.
About a month ago, I broke down as I considered the conclusions that Calvinism led me to. I even cried at the kitchen table considering it. I cannot think of any way that this group of ideas does not lead to the conclusion that God is the author of sin, which He is NOT. God does not tempt any man to sin.
But according to Calvinism, all men are not just born spiritually dead, they cannot even recognize any goodness to be found in the Gospel unless God regenerates them first. I am so confused by this- did not Adam and Eve come to know good from evil by partaking of the fruit?
In no way am I insinuating that they are naturally inclined to seek God or can attain the righteousness that God requires. They need God's grace to be reconciled to Him. But I thought that God invites all men, but only some accept the free gift of salvation.

God has made known to men his law (through the Mosaic law to Jews and the natural conscience to Gentiles [through which they become "a law unto themselves"]), and through the incarnation, Jesus Christ- His perfect sinless life and His offer to bear the sins of men and become a ransom for them. So, all men are without excuse. Everyone, therefore, has the ability to repent; God has revealed Himself to everyone. So, if someone does not repent, is it not their fault?

From what I have understood, the fault is on mankind for rejecting God. But according to Calvinism, it is God that actively chooses who will be saved (and, by consequence, who will not). So, was it God who first made Adam and Eve sin in the Garden, then? Calvin himself has said, "God, in a secret and marvellous way, justly wills, the things which men unjustly do." . . . "Although God and the devil will the same thing: they do so in an utterly different manner." The last quotation is just profoundly disgusting to me for reasons I don't think I even have to explain. The former quotation also disgusts me because it contradicts the Bible (I believe so, at least), and puts the blame on God. I do not deny that God uses the sin of people for his glorious purpose! Because God is in control of everything and can even use sinners for the greater good. God is completely sovereign and uses all things for good.

I have agreed with the traditional Southern Baptist view of predestination. I affirm total depravity to the extent the Bible does (men are totally depraved but can still recognize their need for a savior) and eternal security absolutely. With the rest, I hold to a typical "Arminian" view.

I also just feel an extreme aversion to agree with Calvin after taking a look at his life. I've read historical articles about him that weren't even trying to paint him in a bad light (from secular sources!), and I was appalled to hear about his life. I don't know, I don't like taking theology from someone who burns his theological opponents at the stake (AND did it in the name of our Savior. It's not like he wasn't a professing believer at the time. I am simply examining his fruit. I apologize if I put it a bit too harshly, but that seems to be what happened).

I just want to worship God, though. I will always thank Him for what He has done- saving me by grace through Christ's sacrifice on my behalf. I just want to worship Him, however He is like.

I worship Him because He is love. He is just and merciful. These are things I know from the Bible, and I trust His word.

I am someone who struggles with doubt, though. This really makes me doubt sometimes. What if I am wrong after all, and the Calvinists are more correct about God than I am?

I feel tempted to say that I would not worship the "God of Calvinism", just because I know God is not unjust. But would this condemn me? This is the thing I am most worried about, and the reason why I write this. That's why I am asking you all. I am really struggling here.

What I want to do is just affirm what is in the Bible and not take sides. Not try to figure everything out. But, it is in my personality to desire to figure everything out. Whenever people describe me, that is the first attribute they refer to. People describe me as someone who cannot rest until I know all I can, someone who investigates and needs answers.

I am content with just affirming what the Bible says. But if I say "if God is the God that Calvinism proposes, I do not want Him" is that wrong? Right now, I am willing to accept Him, even that way. I will still find Him merciful. But I just don't want to accept Him reluctantly. I want to accept Him with my full heart. I love God, I really do. He is the author of all good things. He created me and made me in His image. He gave me a purpose in life. Even when I messed up, He had mercy on me. Even in that sorry state, He sets before me good works for me to walk in. He says that I can be His child. Everything about Him is beautiful. But I am struggling here. I know it is just grace through faith that saves me. I know I am saved. But if I knock down and refute how Calvinists portray Him, and I am wrong, will He say to me, "depart from me, I never knew you"? Because I would be cursing Him to His face if I did that. And I love Him, I don't want to do that.

That is my honest question. Please help me. I am really struggling with this.

Oh, boy. It has been several years since I was here. Calvinism (reformed theology) is very messed up. Don't let it bother you. We can talk if you want, but I don't have time to read your whole post. If you want, we can begin slowly and carefully.

ladodgers6 · Jun 19, 2023

maves said:
Hello everyone!
I am really struggling with the concepts in Calvinism.
About a month ago, I broke down as I considered the conclusions that Calvinism led me to. I even cried at the kitchen table considering it. I cannot think of any way that this group of ideas does not lead to the conclusion that God is the author of sin, which He is NOT. God does not tempt any man to sin.

Maves, nice to meet you. I have been a Classical Calvinist for decades now. I was an Arminian prior to becoming a convinced Calvinist. So, I hope I can answer your questions and help you work somethings out. First thing I noticed about your comment above, which is a very common consensus, is that a lot of people confused Hyper-Calvinism and Classical Calvinism. In Classical Calvinism it teaches, that God is not the author of sin, this falls under Hyper-Calvinism. I will use acronyms CC (Classical Calvinism) and HC (Hyper-Calvinism) going forward. In CC, God does not coerce Adam to sin against his will, this will make God the author of sin. Adam fell by his own volition. CC also teaches that God allowed to permit the fall, by allowing Adam to fulfill the Covenant of Works made between God & Adam in the Garden Temple with Obedience or Disobedience. One Act comes with Blessings and Eternal Sabbath (Life) rest with God, the other Act comes with sanctions of curses and death. Take note that Scripture states that God created Adam in an upright standing. He was created righteous and good, with a free-will to obey or disobey God. Which is why God made a Covenant with Adam to fulfill with obedience and spread God's glory through the earth.

Now in HC it teaches that God ordained (wanted the fall to happen) Adam to fall, which makes God the author of evil. Because Adam did not have a choice. Basically was coerced to sin or designed that way. But this is not Scriptural at all. Scripture is explicit in teaching God is not the author of sin and evil.

I don't know how familiar or your level of Biblical knowledge is, but one needs to know the beginning to understand the rest. Knowing the impact of the fulfillment of this Covenant with God is crucial to understanding the the rest of Biblical history. Adam was appointed by God as the human race representative. Like a President representing the US. His actions affect us all in con-solidarity. If the President declares war, we are all at war. He is our leader-head, and he actions affect every single American. I'll touch on this more later.

Ponder upon what I have written so far, and write any questions or concerns you might have.

maves said:
But according to Calvinism, all men are not just born spiritually dead, they cannot even recognize any goodness to be found in the Gospel unless God regenerates them first. I am so confused by this- did not Adam and Eve come to know good from evil by partaking of the fruit?
In no way am I insinuating that they are naturally inclined to seek God or can attain the righteousness that God requires. They need God's grace to be reconciled to Him. But I thought that God invites all men, but only some accept the free gift of salvation.

Excellent question, I am glad to see people genuinely seeking answers. Yes Adam and Eve's eyes were open once they disobeyed God, by eating he forbidden fruit, knowing this they ran and hid from God. God search for them, ask why are you hiding. Because we saw we were naked. God said how do you know this, pointing out that they disobeyed him. God cursed them and were sanctioned with exile and death. But immediately after this God made another Covenant; a Covenant of Grace in which a Savior would come to rescue them from their sins through a seed through Eve.

Genesis 3:15 says, “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” This is known as the protoevangelium—the first gospel. The verse introduces two elements previously unknown in the Garden of Eden, elements that are the basis of Christianity—the curse on mankind because of Adam’s sin and God’s provision for a Savior from sin who would take the curse upon Himself.

And yes, the Gospel is offered to every living creature as commanded by God. This is called the external call. Please again write down any questions or concerns you might have for me. I will address half of your post, and then other half later. If you don't mind. There's a lot to unpack here.

maves said:
God has made known to men his law (through the Mosaic law to Jews and the natural conscience to Gentiles [through which they become "a law unto themselves"]), and through the incarnation, Jesus Christ- His perfect sinless life and His offer to bear the sins of men and become a ransom for them. So, all men are without excuse. Everyone, therefore, has the ability to repent; God has revealed Himself to everyone. So, if someone does not repent, is it not their fault?

Another great insightful questions. Yes, exactly Jews have the Stone Tablets and Gentile have the natural Law. So that nobody is without excuse.

Okay, I'll stop here, because this is a place where you are going to have to do a lot of reading, studying, and research. Ask yourself, what did the fall cause? Describe if the disposition of the fallen human race. What is sin, and what were the ramifications of it. Describe is a sinner? What does Scripture say about our fallen condition? Are sinners enemies and hostile toward God? Is God and Man sworn enemies? Why is a Mediator needed between God and Man? Are sinners rebellious against God?

I ask these question because having a weak view of the gravity of sin leads to a weak view of God's Amazing Grace.

I'll be waiting for your reply.

By Grace Alone in Christ Alone!

Bible Highlighter · Jun 19, 2023

ladodgers6 said:
You got the Michael Servetus & John Calvin story wrong my friend.

This is not true. Even the Calvin University admits the following statement from their own website:

The article from Calvin University says, I quote:

“It is true that Calvin and his fellow pastors in Geneva were involved in the death of Servetus.”

Source:

https://calvin.edu/centers-institutes/meeter-center/files/resources-page/TheServetusControversy.pdf

Source:

Calvin University | Grand Rapids, Michigan | Calvin University

Calvin University is a world-class Christian university in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Calvin ranks #1 in the Midwest among regional colleges.

calvin.edu

ladodgers6 said:
You seek with anger in your heart to disprove Calvinism at all cost even if it means posting false and misleading information with no evidence to support such claims.

No anger in my heart. I genuinely love the person (the Calvinist) but I strongly dislike the false belief (Calvinism).
They are also not false claims. My guess is that you did not research such claims in that they are legit. You are not willing to even consider that the statements are true because you favor Calvinism.

ladodgers6 said:
Just like I did, when I was on a mission to destroy Calvinism as well.

Calvinism is actually just one of many topics I will discuss on occasion. It is by no means my sole mission to destroy. I am not actually worried about it. God will reveal all things in their due time. My real passion is discussing topic of salvation and obedience to God.

ladodgers6 said:
But if you are not afraid of seeking and finding the truth, without bias, or agendas, then seek it. Because if you have the truth nothing can change that. But if you are intentionally lying and bearing false witness, then what's the purpose? What are you scared of?

In my experience especially in these forums not only are Calvinists mean-spirited, belittling, insulting, name call, and so forth. It's everybody for the most part act the same way. So, please, don't say you don't act this way either. Because I am guilty of it myself. But I came to learn not too. I believe we can have a dialogue and share what we believe and why we believe it. Judging others is a hypocritical non-christian trait. My wife asked aren't we discussing God in these forums? I said yes. She asked why are people so mean, doesn't make any sense, they sure don't act like Christians to me, she said. And she's right.

So let's make a deal before we continue our conversation. Let's be cordial and courtesy; treat each other with respect; like gentlemen; like Christians. Deal? And if not it's okay, I'll bid you a farewell.

I only share my experiences with Calvinists. You can either believe it or not. Yes, you get bad apples in all religions, but my overall general experience with Calvinists is that they are cold, mean, and or not able to understand basic morality even when you explain it to them. That’s just my general overall experience.

If you were to Google why are Calvinists mean? You will see what I am talking about. So I am not an isolated case.

One poster on Reddit said,
“Since my two best friends have become Calvinist, they have become extremely arrogant and nasty.”

Source:

You can take it or leave it. But I see that folks do not tend to look at their own beliefs in a negative light because they are not wiling to be objective and or think that they could be wrong. I have changed plenty of times on certain beliefs in the Bible over the years and another poster had actually helped me to see things differently in the book of Hebrews.

What theological things were you mistaken about in your growing knowledge of God's Word?

What theological things were you mistaken about in your growing knowledge of God's Word? Here is my list. #1. I used to believe we had to follow the Old Testament laws in addition to the New Testament laws. Until one day I discovered verses that the New Covenant began with Christ's death and...

www.christianforums.com

My goal is not to endlessly make this same point about how my experiences with Calvinists has been negative and unloving overall. In fact, I am reading a book now that is extremely difficult to read because the author cannot help but to bash his opponents instead of just laying out the biblical evidence that supports his position. The author does have some good evidence biblically and so that is one reason why I am sticking with wanting to finish it. Plus, I promised to read the book, and give a review, as well.

I love the author in Christ, but I don’t like his continual bashing approach. Granted, we can speak the truth in exposing the wrongs that people do on occasion, but there should be a limit on that. Exposing the truth is not bashing if one is not doing so the whole time and they keep doing so over and over and over and over again with the same people (That have already heard it before). I prefer to use the Bible to make my primary arguments. But I noticed that you did not address the verses I put forth to you, my friend. That is where the real battle is at. So if you want to take up your sword and explain the verses I put forth to you, then by all means. If not, then I see that as a weakness in your argument (biblically speaking). I believe if truth is on our side, and we know that truth, then it should be easy for us to explain the verses that appears to dismantle our belief system. Generally, I do not get engaged often on the discussion of the verses I put forth to you that I believe demolishes Calvinism.

Anyways, may God’s love shine upon you (even if we disagree).

ladodgers6 · Jun 19, 2023

Bible Highlighter said:
This is not true. Even the Calvin University admits the following statement from their own website:

The article from Calvin University says, I quote:

“It is true that Calvin and his fellow pastors in Geneva were involved in the death of Servetus.”

Source:

https://calvin.edu/centers-institutes/meeter-center/files/resources-page/TheServetusControversy.pdf

Source:

Calvin University | Grand Rapids, Michigan | Calvin University

Calvin University is a world-class Christian university in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Calvin ranks #1 in the Midwest among regional colleges.

calvin.edu

Again my friend you got this wrong. I'll explain and share it with you.

(1) Michael Servetus was a heretic. Heresy was considered tantamount to treason in Geneva, Switzerland. It was a capital crime there and many other parts of Europe during that era. The penalty for heresy was death per the law of the land.

(2) On February 16, 1553, Servetus was denounced as a heretic while in Vienne, France. He was arrested by Roman Catholic authorities on April 4, 1553, but escaped three days later. He was tried in absentia and convicted of heresy on June 17, 1553. En route to Italy, he stopped by Geneva where he was re-arrested by the magisterial council in Geneva on August 13, 1553. An extradition request from France was denied. He was tried in Geneva and was convicted on forty counts of heresy. On October 27, 1553 he was burned at the stake.

(3) Calvin had warned Servetus not to come to Geneva because he would be punished.

(4) Calvin was not the final authority in Geneva; he wasn't even a citizen of the city until six years later. During the proceedings Calvin was simply a witness. The magisterial council, which was a civil authority, decided such cases, and many of the men sentencing Servetus were actually Calvin's enemies. Calvin did not have authority to condemn or save Servetus.

In the case of Servetus, he believed and taught that God didn't regard that individuals under the age of twenty could commit a moral sin. Thus, the council was fearful that his teaching would give license to the young to commit things such as murder and adultery without fear of punishment (i.e. antinomianism). In addition, though not considered by the council, it was well known that Servetus defended the Koran, the doctrines of which could also erode the social structure of Geneva.

Some accuse Calvin of lighting the match at Servetus' burning because he was an Arminian. But nothing could be further from the truth as Arminianism's founder hadn't even been born yet. It was not listed in the forty-count indictment [1]. But among what was listed is his denial of original sin, his anti-Trinitarian heresy (i.e. see his 1531 book, On the Errors of the Trinity and his 1553 work The Restitution of Christianity) and the denial of the divinity of Christ, pantheism, and the belief that Old Testament saints weren't saved.

Calvin had conversed by letter with Servetus instructing him in the truth from at least 1546 forward. In one letter he wrote, "I neither hate you nor despise you; nor do I wish to persecute you; but I would be as hard as iron when I behold you insulting sound doctrine with so great audacity." He even sent him a copy of his Institutes, which Servetus returned with his own insulting criticisms written therein.

In addition, during Servetus’s imprisonment at Geneva, Calvin again talked and prayed with him. As J.I. Packer has commented: "Calvin, for the record, showed more pastoral concern for Servetus than anyone else connected with the episode." Even after the conviction, Calvin requested a lighter sentence, asking the court to allow Servetus to die painlessly by beheading. His request wasn't granted. Michael Servetus was burned at the stake.

This is what happened, Calvin did not murder Servetus nor wished him harm, but repeatedly tried to help Michael. He warned him about his heresies (Full Blown Pelagianism), basically condoning Antinomianism under the age of 20 years old, denying Christ's divinity and so forth. Calvin even warned Servetus not to come to Geneva because he would be arrested and convicted of heresy and be sentenced to death. Calvin pleaded for him before the court for him. Calvin went to see him in prison to pray for him and give him comfort. Calvin showed compassion to Michael, even though he was teaching heresies, mocking Calvin by writing in his book (Christian Institutes). But antagonist of Calvin don't want to believe what really happened.

In Servetus' correspondence to Calvin, he thanks Calvin for being kind to him and for being a friend. They were opposed to meet but Servetus never showed up.

Please help me figure this out!

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Ezekiel 3:3 ("Change")

Know what you believe and why you believe it

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Know what you believe and why you believe it

Know what you believe and why you believe it

Know what you believe and why you believe it

Know what you believe and why you believe it

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Know what you believe and why you believe it

Well-Known Member

Know what you believe and why you believe it

Well-Known Member

Know what you believe and why you believe it

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Know what you believe and why you believe it

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