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maves

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Maves,

Please be aware that our good friend BH presents his position very impressively but his is but one voice among many.

There are many good folk on CF who take a different view and are not worshiping some false god with a small 'g' as he would have you believe.

This judgement of others in the Body of Christ is a very serious issue and so I humbly ask you to consider his offering with great caution.

The journey to truth has many signposts and we are cautioned not to follow 'the man' but work out our own salvation, not steal one another's words.

This comment is meant in Love and not to offend.
Oh I'm fully aware. I also believe that he used a strawman of Calvinism, but nonetheless, he did respond directly to me, so I responded back.

I don't want to die on any theological hills, but stick to Christ's example of humility. He is my Savior, after all, and I want to love Him by following His commands. I think my response to BH just now was something everyone can agree with.
I want to take a "mere Christian" approach and affirm what the Bible says. I can have my own theories about how it all links together (after research, I take the Molinist view on this issue), but those are much less important matters than what God has directly revealed. Soon (after the return of our Savior), God may reveal to us many more things, including the exact dynamic of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility, but while I can theorize, I do not claim any superior knowledge. For now, instead of pointing to my own theory, I will point to the Scriptures; there is much work to be done on this Earth and we don't have time for fights based on a matter of second importance.

However, it becomes difficult if someone says man is not responsible for his sin. That would place the blame on God when the Scriptures say that we are without excuse. We are condemned because we are responsible and have fallen short.

Agreeing on that, we can join in the work of the proclamation of the Gospel, and tell others how we can be liberated from sin and its condemnation through the loving work of the Messiah.

God bless you <3
 
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Carl Emerson

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Oh I'm fully aware. I also believe that he used a strawman of Calvinism, but nonetheless, he did respond directly to me, so I responded back.

I don't want to die on any theological hills, but stick to Christ's example of humility. He is my Savior, after all, and I want to love Him by following His commands. I think my response to BH just now was something everyone can agree with.
I want to take a "mere Christian" approach and affirm what the Bible says. I can have my own theories about how it all links together (after research, I take the Molinist view on this issue), but those are much less important matters than what God has directly revealed. Soon (after the return of our Savior), God may reveal to us many more things, including the exact dynamic of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility, but while I can theorize, I do not claim any superior knowledge. For now, instead of pointing to my own theory, I will point to the Scriptures; there is much work to be done on this Earth and we don't have time for fights based on a matter of second importance.

However, it becomes difficult if someone says man is not responsible for his sin. That would place the blame on God when the Scriptures say that we are without excuse. We are condemned because we are responsible and have fallen short.

Agreeing on that, we can join in the work of the proclamation of the Gospel, and tell others how we can be liberated from sin and its condemnation through the loving work of the Messiah.

God bless you <3

Nice reply - appreciate your position and humility.
 
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maves

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Sorry. I am not going to hold back anything when it comes to the truth. Any god that is not the actual GOD described in the Bible is a false god - IMHO. I do not believe the god of Calvinism is the same GOD described in the Bible even though they will say that it is. You may have friends who are Calvinists, and or consider them to be loving people. But that has not been my experience with them in every case. Nor do I consider their god that they describe to be as the One True God who is a God of love and who actually cares to see all men saved. Any god who creates people for the sole purpose of being tortured for all eternity in flames as their one and only fate or choice is not the GOD of the Bible. It really is that simple. Then again, people read the Bible with their head these days and not with their heart (Not realizing that they are violating their own conscience and morality).
You can really see whether someone calls themselves a Calvinist and does not believe these things, and when someone calls themselves a Calvinist and does believe them. It's evident in how they treat others and how they share the Gospel.

My pastor has once called himself a "5-point Calvinist" during a meeting, but he never brings up the Doctrines of Grace in his sermons (as to put them at the forefront instead of the Gospel), he urges people to accept the free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ, and is very, very kind and zealous for the well-being and salvation of the lost. We worship the same God, not a false god who saves people arbitrarily instead of directly through his sacrificed son. It is clear that when my pastor says he affirms the Doctrines of Grace, he is not following them to a conclusion that is against Scripture.

I believe one of my best friends is also a Calvinist, but I have not brought up the subject with her before. I just have the feeling from knowing her well (it seems to mesh with the way she conceptualizes things). Still, we worship the same God; we have been sealed with the Holy Spirit alike.

There's a difference between believers who think Calvinism offers a consistent soteriological view (though I personally disagree), with people who internalize the Doctrines so much that they read the Institutes more than their Bible; who argue with church members about theology more than they have fellowship with them. I believe that latter bunch would be the people worshipping a false god.
 
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Thank you so much! I appreciate your thoughtful comments a lot. :)
You are welcome. I hope the Scriptures I shared will continue to bring light and understanding to you.

It is 100% safe to say that we will be held responsible for whether we accept the Gospel or not. I am so glad that I have!!
Many people have a different understanding on what the gospel is.
I see the gospel as described in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
”Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”

I believe that our believing that Christ dying for our sins, He was buried, and risen the third day according to the Scriptures is the gospel. I believe Cornelius and his family were saved by hearing and believing that Christ died and was risen the third day for their salvation.

I see this as redemption from our past life of sin and as a conditional provision if we happen to stumble in our holy walk with God. If a believer sins again, they have to confess of their sins to Jesus to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1). They need to forsake that sin. I do not see the gospel as covering future sins as many today teach. Jude 1:4 warns against those who turn God’s grace into a license for immorality. Granted, there are believers who say they will love God and do good works as a result of this gospel, but if one is not dealing with sin in the way Jesus taught it, and the apostle Paul taught it, then there is a big problem. Jesus taught that just looking upon a woman in lust can cause our whole body to be cast into hellfire. Paul taught that various sins (like murder, hate, idolatry, fornication, theft, etcetera) will cause one to not inherit the Kingdom of God. Jesus taught that He did not know certain believers at the Judgment because they worked iniquity. Iniquity is sin. So while a believer can do good works and say they love God, if their view of not dealing with sin properly is not as taught in God’s Word, they are not believing the truth and loving God as He intended. Some see the gospel as a blanket to cover even future sin because of a belief on Jesus Christ. So if they sin again, confession of sin is not always necessary. They don’t believe a Christian can lose or endanger their salvation by sin.

I love God, and I hope to continue to read His word and treasure His Gospel. I hope to fix my mind on Him.
I pray that such is so according to His Word.


Thank you for your careful consideration of my concerns. Luckily, our salvation does not depend on how well we can articulate the precise dynamic of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. Both are present, God is sovereign and man is responsible. That's theology that we can write with a pen.
I think it depends on what somebody means by God’s sovereignty. The god of Calvinism has a different view of God’s sovereignty and it erases man’s responsibility. They believe that God makes little puppet masters and their free will is no more. They believe God decrees both good and evil (Which is not right). Granted, it does not appear you believe in traditional Calvinism, and if that is the case, praise be unto the Lord. I would encourage you to come out from among them as friends because they paint a wrong picture of God making Him out to be a bully and who desires to not see all men saved.


We can surely theorize beyond what the Scriptures reveal, but that's the theology we write with a pencil and eraser. It is not what we depend upon, either.
I will build up my knowledge, trust, joy, hope, security and contentment through meditation on all of Scripture and through prayer.
I believe that my beliefs I shared were supported by Scripture, and they are not a theory. I don’t believe the god of Calvinism is the GOD of the Bible. How can it be? God is love. God is good. God is into fair justice. God saves but not at the violation of man’s ultimate choices or free will. God can be a great influencer and nudge and whoo us, but I do not see God as a puppet master as Calvinism paints Him. I will pray that you will see this truth and distance yourself from those who believe in Calvinism.
 
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You can really see whether someone calls themselves a Calvinist and does not believe these things, and when someone calls themselves a Calvinist and does believe them. It's evident in how they treat others and how they share the Gospel.

My pastor has once called himself a "5-point Calvinist" during a meeting, but he never brings up the Doctrines of Grace in his sermons (as to put them at the forefront instead of the Gospel), he urges people to accept the free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ, and is very, very kind and zealous for the well-being and salvation of the lost. We worship the same God, not a false god who saves people arbitrarily instead of directly through his sacrificed son. It is clear that when my pastor says he affirms the Doctrines of Grace, he is not following them to a conclusion that is against Scripture.

I believe one of my best friends is also a Calvinist, but I have not brought up the subject with her before. I just have the feeling from knowing her well (it seems to mesh with the way she conceptualizes things). Still, we worship the same God; we have been sealed with the Holy Spirit alike.

There's a difference between believers who think Calvinism offers a consistent soteriological view (though I personally disagree), with people who internalize the Doctrines so much that they read the Institutes more than their Bible; who argue with church members about theology more than they have fellowship with them. I believe that latter bunch would be the people worshipping a false god.
Leave your church now if your Pastor is a Calvinist!
He does not believe in the God of the Bible.
This is very serious and it is a huge spiritual danger for you.
Some can be nice on the surface but if they are teaching that God saves some and does not save others by His decree and choice alone, that is extremely wrong on many levels.

I think some Calvinists are afraid to share their beliefs about Calvinism because they know it can turn a lot of people off. They want to keep their church running and have lots of members. If truth was important, they would preach it despite how people felt about it. But their truth is no real truth at all. Calvinism is not truth. Calvinism paints God to save only a select few by His choice alone and others He chooses to not be saved by His choice alone. That’s not the God of the Bible. Psalms 7:11 says, God gets angry at the wicked every day. How can that be if God is the one who chooses most people to remain as being wicked and their one and only fate is condemnation for all eternity? It makes no sense.

That would mean God is creating the majority of mankind for the sole purpose to burn for all eternity.
They have no other fate or choice. That is what the god of Calvinism has decreed as their sole purpose in life.

Even you were appearing to be in a panic in your OP over Calvinism.
Why? Well, any good person knows that such a belief is a violation of what is good and right.
 
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Carl Emerson

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@maves

It seems the only way to have fruitful discussion on the OP is to present the issues rather than hammer away at a theology.

If you would like to do this I would be happy to participate as would others.

But as long as some of us are intent on hammering away of their perception of a theology, the likely outcome is very limited.

There are many on CF with years of devotional bible study capable of mining the treasures of the word.

Love does not insist on it's own but holds personal conclusions lightly so as not to condemn travellers at early stages of the journey.

Edification and revelation come from the Holy Spirit within, not the noise of argument.

As a starter we could look at if we believe God has the sovereign prerogative to destroy as we see He did to the enemies of Israel.

Egypt lost all the first born males to a destroying angel under His command.
 
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@maves

It seems the only way to have fruitful discussion on the OP is to present the issues rather than hammer away at a theology.

If you would like to do this I would be happy to participate as would others.

But as long as some of us are intent on hammering away of their perception of a theology, the likely outcome is very limited.

There are many on CF with years of devotional bible study capable of mining the treasures of the word.

Love does not insist on it's own but holds personal conclusions lightly so as not to condemn travellers at early stages of the journey.

Edification and revelation come from the Holy Spirit within, not the noise of argument.

As a starter we could look at if we believe God has the sovereign prerogative to destroy as we see He did to the enemies of Israel.

Egypt lost all the first born males to a destroying angel under His command.
So in your view, there is no such thing as false beliefs that should not be preached against?
 
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Carl Emerson

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So in your view, there is no such thing as false beliefs that should not be preached against?

Did you intend the double negative ?

Processing the scripture with wisdom and humility is more likely to be fruitful. James says that the wisdom from above is reasonable.

'Come let us reason together' our Father said.
 
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maves

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Leave your church now if your Pastor is a Calvinist!
He does not believe in the God of the Bible.
This is very serious and it is a huge spiritual danger for you.
Some can be nice on the surface but if they are teaching that God saves some and does not save others by His decree and choice alone, that is extremely wrong on many levels.

I think some Calvinists are afraid to share their beliefs about Calvinism because they know it can turn a lot of people off. They want to keep their church running and have lots of members. If truth was important, they would preach it despite how people felt about it. But their truth is no real truth at all. Calvinism is not truth. Calvinism paints God to save only a select few by His choice alone and others He chooses to not be saved by His choice alone. That’s not the God of the Bible. Psalms 7:11 says, God gets angry at the wicked every day. How can that be if God is the one who chooses most people to remain as being wicked and their one and only fate is condemnation for all eternity? It makes no sense.

That would mean God is creating the majority of mankind for the sole purpose to burn for all eternity.
They have no other fate or choice. That is what the god of Calvinism has decreed as their sole purpose in life.

Even you were appearing to be in a panic in your OP over Calvinism.
Why? Well, any good person knows that such a belief is a violation of what is good and right.
Look, my pastor never preaches Calvinist doctrine from the pulpit. I agree with you very much in your criticism of Calvinism!! After hearing both perspectives, I believe the same things.
I think the Calvinist system is an attempt by flawed human beings to explain something that has not yet been revealed to us, which is why, I believe, it is so jarring, like a dissonant chord in an otherwise beautiful song. It is for sure a limited explanation, and we do not have all the details of God's plan on Earth.

Calvinist doctrine also does not stem only from the Bible; you have to read it into the Bible. Neither is it the historic position of the early church. Origen, one of the early church fathers, said "The Scriptures…emphasize the freedom of the will. They condemn those who sin, and approve those who do right… We are responsible for being bad and worthy of being cast outside. For it is not the nature in us that is the cause of the evil; rather, it is the voluntary choice that works evil” (A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 289, Published by Hendrickson Publishers). The early Christians saw sinfulness as altogether voluntary, caused by their choice to rebel. The Gnostics, however, had different doctrine. They thought that the nature of man was born so corrupted already that they did not have the freedom to repent and accept salvation. They saw the actions of men being caused by their nature. They looked down on the human body/flesh. However, the early church fathers in the first three hundred years after Christ maintained the freedom of the will (in relation to accepting the Gospel. We are enslaved to sin, but we can recognize our need: that was the position of the early church fathers).
However, Pelagius took this way too far and introduced a heresy into the church about how human beings are essentially good and salvation is attained by choosing it (rather than accepting it as a gift). So, Augustine refuted him. Harshly. His heresies were exposed and Augustine was the hero.

However, Augustine was a Gnostic for many years, in the Manichaeism sect. I believe that it was his Gnostic roots that led him to deny the free will of man and influence many, many people after he was appointed as a Bishop. I think that while Augustine rightly refuted Pelagius, the two were like two sides of a pendulum... a little too far in opposite directions. One minimized God's grace, the other, man's independent will.

Centuries later came Calvin, who was nourished on Scripture, yes, but on Augustine's works in addition. I believe that he read a lot of Augustine's views into the Bible. Calvin sought to revive Augustine's teachings and join them to the main ideas of the Reformation; embody them in churches.

After all, Calvin referred to Augustine two hundred and sixty-five times in his Institutes. He also defended his positions on free will many times by citing the authority of Augustine. "Let us now hear Augustine in his own words" he said, lest he be charged with "being opposed to all antiquity" (Institutes of the Christian Religion, Volume One, Published by Calvin Translation Society, 1845 Edition, p. 355).

Nonetheless, there are often Scriptural defenses made for Calvinism. I did the same thing as you for a while and expressed my disapproval of the Doctrines of Grace to many people. But, over time, I didn't like where my thoughts were headed. I started to subconsciously say things like "if the 'god of Calvinism' is the real God, would I even worship Him?".
I discussed this with my Bible teacher. He voiced the same concern as me, and he even expressed that same question I just mentioned (I was taken aback by that). I didn't really get much further than a mutual understanding with my Bible teacher, but it comforted me nonetheless.

I have no idea how to explain divine providence fully, and there is a chance that Calvinists may be right in some sense, though the greater picture is not yet revealed and we do not know how it fits together at the moment.
I will not tell God what He does and does not do. I know His nature, but I will not boldly claim that I know the exact mechanisms of predestination. I am trusting God and look forward to the moment when I know more (I am a very curious person, I think greater knowledge will be one of the most beautiful heavenly gifts to me haha ^_^). I want to consider alternatives humbly and of course dismiss them when they contradict Scripture! I also seek to provide historical context to these ideas- what is their root?

Here is the Scriptural truth I will rest in.
The thing that barred unbelievers from Jesus was that they refused to come to Him. John 5:40: "yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life".
Those outside of salvation are "without excuse" (Romans 1).
The person chooses which way he will go, and God deals righteously with his choice: "the heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps".

But we are not reunited to God by our own will, that is, our will is not the object of our salvation. Jesus is the object of our salvation, faith is the instrument by which we can attain that gift.

I hope that this was helpful. But, yeah, I'm gonna keep my Calvinist friends. We have never even talked about Calvinism anyway (with the exception of one of my Presbyterian friends, but we never said much more than a few sentences). We're on a journey together as brothers and sisters in Christ.
 
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maves

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@maves

It seems the only way to have fruitful discussion on the OP is to present the issues rather than hammer away at a theology.

If you would like to do this I would be happy to participate as would others.

But as long as some of us are intent on hammering away of their perception of a theology, the likely outcome is very limited.

There are many on CF with years of devotional bible study capable of mining the treasures of the word.

Love does not insist on it's own but holds personal conclusions lightly so as not to condemn travellers at early stages of the journey.

Edification and revelation come from the Holy Spirit within, not the noise of argument.

As a starter we could look at if we believe God has the sovereign prerogative to destroy as we see He did to the enemies of Israel.

Egypt lost all the first born males to a destroying angel under His command.
My intention is not to hammer away at a theology, but to express my doubts at its logical conclusions.
Reformed doctrine does lead people to the questions I pose. I'm not arguing, just asking questions and seeking the truth! I also don't respond to the people who've gone back and forth in this thread.
When I have unanswered questions, doubts, and dissonance in my thoughts, it disturbs my prayer life. That's why I ask and investigate. I have no agenda to bash Calvinists.
If you have the time, check out my most recent response! ^_^
I hope that you will understand me, and I hope to understand you better.
 
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Look, my pastor never preaches Calvinist doctrine from the pulpit.
Well, I cannot beat you up about this. My favorite Christian movie director Rich Christiano (Time Changer, Play the Flute, Secrets of Jonathan Sperry) is a Calvinist but he does not push Calvinism in his movies (as of this date of this writing). But I still don’t like Calvinism, and if anyone brings it up, it is my obligation as a believer to tell them the truth.

Anyways, you can learn more about Rich Christiano’s films in my Christian DVD Collection here:



I agree with you very much in your criticism of Calvinism!! After hearing both perspectives, I believe the same things.
I think the Calvinist system is an attempt by flawed human beings to explain something that has not yet been revealed to us, which is why, I believe, it is so jarring, like a dissonant chord in an otherwise beautiful song. It is for sure a limited explanation, and we do not have all the details of God's plan on Earth.
It seems like you know Calvinism is not biblical, but you are not entirely convinced in the fact that we do not really know for sure beyond a shadow of a doubt. I do know by God’s Word that Calvinism is not biblical. Sure, there is a Sovereignty of God in the Bible, and I believe God does get the glory when we believe because He illuminates His Word to an individual at His timing and calling (That without that illumination - or opening of the heart, they would not be able to see or understand). I get that. In fact, I created a pictorial diagram of how I believe things are in God’s working.

full



Calvinist doctrine also does not stem only from the Bible; you have to read it into the Bible.
That’s a 100% Amen.


Neither is it the historic position of the early church. Origen, one of the early church fathers, said "The Scriptures…emphasize the freedom of the will. They condemn those who sin, and approve those who do right… We are responsible for being bad and worthy of being cast outside. For it is not the nature in us that is the cause of the evil; rather, it is the voluntary choice that works evil” (A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 289, Published by Hendrickson Publishers). The early Christians saw sinfulness as altogether voluntary, caused by their choice to rebel. The Gnostics, however, had different doctrine. They thought that the nature of man was born so corrupted already that they did not have the freedom to repent and accept salvation. They saw the actions of men being caused by their nature. They looked down on the human body/flesh. However, the early church fathers in the first three hundred years after Christ maintained the freedom of the will (in relation to accepting the Gospel. We are enslaved to sin, but we can recognize our need: that was the position of the early church fathers).
However, Pelagius took this way too far and introduced a heresy into the church about how human beings are essentially good and salvation is attained by choosing it (rather than accepting it as a gift). So, Augustine refuted him. Harshly. His heresies were exposed and Augustine was the hero.

However, Augustine was a Gnostic for many years, in the Manichaeism sect. I believe that it was his Gnostic roots that led him to deny the free will of man and influence many, many people after he was appointed as a Bishop. I think that while Augustine rightly refuted Pelagius, the two were like two sides of a pendulum... a little too far in opposite directions. One minimized God's grace, the other, man's independent will.

Centuries later came Calvin, who was nourished on Scripture, yes, but on Augustine's works in addition. I believe that he read a lot of Augustine's views into the Bible. Calvin sought to revive Augustine's teachings and join them to the main ideas of the Reformation; embody them in churches.

After all, Calvin referred to Augustine two hundred and sixty-five times in his Institutes. He also defended his positions on free will many times by citing the authority of Augustine. "Let us now hear Augustine in his own words" he said, lest he be charged with "being opposed to all antiquity" (Institutes of the Christian Religion, Volume One, Published by Calvin Translation Society, 1845 Edition, p. 355).
Yes, I heard the history on this before. But thank you for the recap.
There is a ministry called PinPoint Evangelism.
I believe PinPoint Evangelism‘s crusade against Calvinism as blinding them to not see the doctrine of Original Sin.
I believe Original Sin is biblical. Scripture says we were by nature children of wrath (i.e., in reference to our old life).


Nonetheless, there are often Scriptural defenses made for Calvinism. I did the same thing as you for a while and expressed my disapproval of the Doctrines of Grace to many people. But, over time, I didn't like where my thoughts were headed. I started to subconsciously say things like "if the 'god of Calvinism' is the real God, would I even worship Him?".
I wouldn’t have a problem with this because it is not how I see God described in the Bible.
There is no hypothetical of me being wrong on this because I believe the Bible is 100% true.
There are tons of evidences supporting the Bible as the Word of God.

Check out my Blogger article here for evidences for the Word of God:


Also, check out Brandon Peterson’s YouTube videos.

Here is one of my favorites by him:


I have no idea how to explain divine providence fully, and there is a chance that Calvinists may be right in some sense, though the greater picture is not yet revealed and we do not know how it fits together at the moment.
Sorry, I see Calvinism as having zero chance of being biblical. The Bible makes this fact very clear.
Calvinism at the heart is about God decreeing both good and evil and forcing salvation upon some and damnation upon others against their own free will choice. This is just wrong on so many levels not only on a moral level, but a biblical level, as well. Again, there is zero chance that they are even remotely correct.


I will not tell God what He does and does not do. I know His nature, but I will not boldly claim that I know the exact mechanisms of predestination.
1 Peter 1:1-2 tells us that God elects according to His foreknowledge.
So God sees through the corridors of time and can see how we would respond favorably or not.
God elects based on this.
Granted, a person has to make their calling and election sure (As Scripture says).
I also believe we have to continue with God.
Scripture says we are to keep ourselves in the love of God.
Scripture says we are to continue in God’s grace, continue in the faith, etcetera.
God does not force Himself upon us to the point where we have no free will, although He can nudge, and woo us.

I am trusting God and look forward to the moment when I know more (I am a very curious person, I think greater knowledge will be one of the most beautiful heavenly gifts to me haha ^_^). I want to consider alternatives humbly and of course dismiss them when they contradict Scripture! I also seek to provide historical context to these ideas- what is their root?

Here is the Scriptural truth I will rest in.
The thing that barred unbelievers from Jesus was that they refused to come to Him. John 5:40: "yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life".
Those outside of salvation are "without excuse" (Romans 1).
The person chooses which way he will go, and God deals righteously with his choice: "the heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps".
As Jesus said, you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.
Truth is not always popular, and sometimes it does not make us friends.

But we are not reunited to God by our own will, that is, our will is not the object of our salvation. Jesus is the object of our salvation, faith is the instrument by which we can attain that gift.
I am not aware of any Arminians who look to their own will as salvation.

Romans 5:2 (KJB) says,
”By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.”

Faith is just the access card or key to God’s grace (Who is Jesus Christ).
Without God’s grace, we would not be able to be saved or do anything.
God’s grace was able to help Paul labor more abundantly than his brethren (1 Corinthians 15:10).
Just as the woman who anointed Jesus’ feet with her tears.
It was God’s grace that moved her to love very much.
She was forgiven much, and so she loved much.
God’s grace.
Truly amazing indeed.


I hope that this was helpful. But, yeah, I'm gonna keep my Calvinist friends.
I understand. I have Christian friends who believe things that I am strongly against.
Not sure about Calvinist friends, though.
That just never happened for me.
While I would have no trouble being friendly with them, I am just not sure I could bring myself to hang with them because their belief is so far off the charts. That would make me feel awkward because I find the belief to be exceptionally wrong on a moral level.
It’s just an odd belief, as well. It sort of reminds me of the flat Earth belief (of which I debated on the forums in the past - see here).
Everyone knows the Earth is a globe except for them. Honestly only Romans 9 sounds like Calvinism at first glance and even if one reads the end of the chapter they can see it is not really talking about Calvinism. It’s a violation of God’s goodness.
 
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Carl Emerson

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My intention is not to hammer away at a theology, but to express my doubts at its logical conclusions.
Reformed doctrine does lead people to the questions I pose. I'm not arguing, just asking questions and seeking the truth! I also don't respond to the people who've gone back and forth in this thread.
When I have unanswered questions, doubts, and dissonance in my thoughts, it disturbs my prayer life. That's why I ask and investigate. I have no agenda to bash Calvinists.
If you have the time, check out my most recent response! ^_^
I hope that you will understand me, and I hope to understand you better.

Sorry - my comments were not directed at you personally.

I have seen so much fruitless exchange on CF that I avoid the scripture ping-pong that some folks like to play.

I have no issue with you at all...
 
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zoidar

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Hello everyone!
I am really struggling with the concepts in Calvinism.
About a month ago, I broke down as I considered the conclusions that Calvinism led me to. I even cried at the kitchen table considering it. I cannot think of any way that this group of ideas does not lead to the conclusion that God is the author of sin, which He is NOT. God does not tempt any man to sin.
But according to Calvinism, all men are not just born spiritually dead, they cannot even recognize any goodness to be found in the Gospel unless God regenerates them first. I am so confused by this- did not Adam and Eve come to know good from evil by partaking of the fruit?
In no way am I insinuating that they are naturally inclined to seek God or can attain the righteousness that God requires. They need God's grace to be reconciled to Him. But I thought that God invites all men, but only some accept the free gift of salvation.

God has made known to men his law (through the Mosaic law to Jews and the natural conscience to Gentiles [through which they become "a law unto themselves"]), and through the incarnation, Jesus Christ- His perfect sinless life and His offer to bear the sins of men and become a ransom for them. So, all men are without excuse. Everyone, therefore, has the ability to repent; God has revealed Himself to everyone. So, if someone does not repent, is it not their fault?

From what I have understood, the fault is on mankind for rejecting God. But according to Calvinism, it is God that actively chooses who will be saved (and, by consequence, who will not). So, was it God who first made Adam and Eve sin in the Garden, then? Calvin himself has said, "God, in a secret and marvellous way, justly wills, the things which men unjustly do." . . . "Although God and the devil will the same thing: they do so in an utterly different manner." The last quotation is just profoundly disgusting to me for reasons I don't think I even have to explain. The former quotation also disgusts me because it contradicts the Bible (I believe so, at least), and puts the blame on God. I do not deny that God uses the sin of people for his glorious purpose! Because God is in control of everything and can even use sinners for the greater good. God is completely sovereign and uses all things for good.

I have agreed with the traditional Southern Baptist view of predestination. I affirm total depravity to the extent the Bible does (men are totally depraved but can still recognize their need for a savior) and eternal security absolutely. With the rest, I hold to a typical "Arminian" view.

I also just feel an extreme aversion to agree with Calvin after taking a look at his life. I've read historical articles about him that weren't even trying to paint him in a bad light (from secular sources!), and I was appalled to hear about his life. I don't know, I don't like taking theology from someone who burns his theological opponents at the stake (AND did it in the name of our Savior. It's not like he wasn't a professing believer at the time. I am simply examining his fruit. I apologize if I put it a bit too harshly, but that seems to be what happened).

I just want to worship God, though. I will always thank Him for what He has done- saving me by grace through Christ's sacrifice on my behalf. I just want to worship Him, however He is like.

I worship Him because He is love. He is just and merciful. These are things I know from the Bible, and I trust His word.

I am someone who struggles with doubt, though. This really makes me doubt sometimes. What if I am wrong after all, and the Calvinists are more correct about God than I am?

I feel tempted to say that I would not worship the "God of Calvinism", just because I know God is not unjust. But would this condemn me? This is the thing I am most worried about, and the reason why I write this. That's why I am asking you all. I am really struggling here.

What I want to do is just affirm what is in the Bible and not take sides. Not try to figure everything out. But, it is in my personality to desire to figure everything out. Whenever people describe me, that is the first attribute they refer to. People describe me as someone who cannot rest until I know all I can, someone who investigates and needs answers.

I am content with just affirming what the Bible says. But if I say "if God is the God that Calvinism proposes, I do not want Him" is that wrong? Right now, I am willing to accept Him, even that way. I will still find Him merciful. But I just don't want to accept Him reluctantly. I want to accept Him with my full heart. I love God, I really do. He is the author of all good things. He created me and made me in His image. He gave me a purpose in life. Even when I messed up, He had mercy on me. Even in that sorry state, He sets before me good works for me to walk in. He says that I can be His child. Everything about Him is beautiful. But I am struggling here. I know it is just grace through faith that saves me. I know I am saved. But if I knock down and refute how Calvinists portray Him, and I am wrong, will He say to me, "depart from me, I never knew you"? Because I would be cursing Him to His face if I did that. And I love Him, I don't want to do that.

That is my honest question. Please help me. I am really struggling with this.
I think this post would do better in the "advice section". Maybe ask the mods to movie it?

I will post a video of Alana who is a former 5 point Calvinist. Maybe her videos will be helpful. Some years ago I was like you, also very concerned (and depressed) about the "what if". If you are like I was, you were not theologically prepared to deal with Calvinism and that is the ground for your fear and sadness. I got some help from different teachers/theologians to look at what the Bible really teach and what it doesn't. That has been really helpful to me. God bless you and Christ love! ✝️


Here is part 2 if you find part 1 helpful.

 
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FutureAndAHope

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Hello everyone!
I am really struggling with the concepts in Calvinism.
About a month ago, I broke down as I considered the conclusions that Calvinism led me to. I even cried at the kitchen table considering it. I cannot think of any way that this group of ideas does not lead to the conclusion that God is the author of sin, which He is NOT. God does not tempt any man to sin.
But according to Calvinism, all men are not just born spiritually dead, they cannot even recognize any goodness to be found in the Gospel unless God regenerates them first. I am so confused by this- did not Adam and Eve come to know good from evil by partaking of the fruit?
In no way am I insinuating that they are naturally inclined to seek God or can attain the righteousness that God requires. They need God's grace to be reconciled to Him. But I thought that God invites all men, but only some accept the free gift of salvation.

God has made known to men his law (through the Mosaic law to Jews and the natural conscience to Gentiles [through which they become "a law unto themselves"]), and through the incarnation, Jesus Christ- His perfect sinless life and His offer to bear the sins of men and become a ransom for them. So, all men are without excuse. Everyone, therefore, has the ability to repent; God has revealed Himself to everyone. So, if someone does not repent, is it not their fault?

From what I have understood, the fault is on mankind for rejecting God. But according to Calvinism, it is God that actively chooses who will be saved (and, by consequence, who will not). So, was it God who first made Adam and Eve sin in the Garden, then? Calvin himself has said, "God, in a secret and marvellous way, justly wills, the things which men unjustly do." . . . "Although God and the devil will the same thing: they do so in an utterly different manner." The last quotation is just profoundly disgusting to me for reasons I don't think I even have to explain. The former quotation also disgusts me because it contradicts the Bible (I believe so, at least), and puts the blame on God. I do not deny that God uses the sin of people for his glorious purpose! Because God is in control of everything and can even use sinners for the greater good. God is completely sovereign and uses all things for good.

I have agreed with the traditional Southern Baptist view of predestination. I affirm total depravity to the extent the Bible does (men are totally depraved but can still recognize their need for a savior) and eternal security absolutely. With the rest, I hold to a typical "Arminian" view.

I also just feel an extreme aversion to agree with Calvin after taking a look at his life. I've read historical articles about him that weren't even trying to paint him in a bad light (from secular sources!), and I was appalled to hear about his life. I don't know, I don't like taking theology from someone who burns his theological opponents at the stake (AND did it in the name of our Savior. It's not like he wasn't a professing believer at the time. I am simply examining his fruit. I apologize if I put it a bit too harshly, but that seems to be what happened).

I just want to worship God, though. I will always thank Him for what He has done- saving me by grace through Christ's sacrifice on my behalf. I just want to worship Him, however He is like.

I worship Him because He is love. He is just and merciful. These are things I know from the Bible, and I trust His word.

I am someone who struggles with doubt, though. This really makes me doubt sometimes. What if I am wrong after all, and the Calvinists are more correct about God than I am?

I feel tempted to say that I would not worship the "God of Calvinism", just because I know God is not unjust. But would this condemn me? This is the thing I am most worried about, and the reason why I write this. That's why I am asking you all. I am really struggling here.

What I want to do is just affirm what is in the Bible and not take sides. Not try to figure everything out. But, it is in my personality to desire to figure everything out. Whenever people describe me, that is the first attribute they refer to. People describe me as someone who cannot rest until I know all I can, someone who investigates and needs answers.

I am content with just affirming what the Bible says. But if I say "if God is the God that Calvinism proposes, I do not want Him" is that wrong? Right now, I am willing to accept Him, even that way. I will still find Him merciful. But I just don't want to accept Him reluctantly. I want to accept Him with my full heart. I love God, I really do. He is the author of all good things. He created me and made me in His image. He gave me a purpose in life. Even when I messed up, He had mercy on me. Even in that sorry state, He sets before me good works for me to walk in. He says that I can be His child. Everything about Him is beautiful. But I am struggling here. I know it is just grace through faith that saves me. I know I am saved. But if I knock down and refute how Calvinists portray Him, and I am wrong, will He say to me, "depart from me, I never knew you"? Because I would be cursing Him to His face if I did that. And I love Him, I don't want to do that.

That is my honest question. Please help me. I am really struggling with this.
I did not even know there was such a thing as Calvinism, until a few years ago, it sent me on a search to find out what I actually believed. I came to the conclusion that Calvinism is not the way to view God. I did up quite a long website on the case for free will. You can see it at A comprehensive look at Predestination vs free will
 
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FutureAndAHope

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However, it becomes difficult if someone says man is not responsible for his sin. That would place the blame on God when the Scriptures say that we are without excuse. We are condemned because we are responsible and have fallen short.

....

As a part of my investigation into Calvinism, I looked into what the Early Church taught on the topic, i.e. the earliest church fathers. It turns out teh Early Church, around 150 years after the cross, all taught free agency, free will, they actually fought a type of Calvinism called Fatalism.

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies taught genuine Free Will​

Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

2. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to hold fast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast it from them and not to do it, — some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control of good laws (and much more from God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice of good in general, and of persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might become forgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets.

3. For this reason the Lord also said, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” (Mat 5:16) And, “Take heed to yourselves, lest perchance your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and worldly cares.” (Luk 21:34) And, “Let your loins be girded about, and your lamps burning, and ye like unto men that wait for their Lord, when He returns from the wedding, that when He cometh and knocketh, they may open to Him. Blessed is that servant whom his Lord, when He cometh, shall find so doing.” (Luk_12:35, Luk_12:36) And again, “The servant who knows his Lord’s will, and does it not, shall be beaten with many stripes.” (Luk_12:47) And, “Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luk 6:46) And again, “But if the servant say in his heart, The Lord delayeth, and begin to beat his fellow-servants, and to eat, and drink, and to be drunken, his Lord will come in a day on which he does not expect Him, and shall cut him in sunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites.” (Luk 12:45, Luk 12:46; Mat 24:48, Mat 24:51) All such passages demonstrate the independent will151 of man, and at the same time the counsel which God conveys to him, by which He exhorts us to submit ourselves to Him, and seeks to turn us away from [the sin of] unbelief against Him, without, however, in any way coercing us.

4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man’s power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, “All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient;” (1Co 6:12) referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect “all things are lawful,” God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] “not expedient” pointing out that we “should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness,” (1Pe 2:16) for this is not expedient. And again he says, “Speak ye every man truth with his neighbour.” (Eph 4:25) And, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks.” (Eph 4:29) And, “For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified in the name of our Lord.” (1Co 6:11) If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.

5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)
 
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ladodgers6

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@maves

I lean more towards Arminianism.

Here are the Original 5 Articles (or Points) of Traditional Arminianism:
  1. Conditional Election.
  2. Unlimited Atonement.
  3. Total Depravity.
  4. Prevenient Grace.
  5. Conditional Preservation of the Saints.
Five Articles of Remonstrance - Wikipedia

My five points that I would consider Biblical are the following:

#1. Conditional Election (Based upon God’s Foreknowledge).​
#2. Conditional Salvation.​
#3. Unrestricted Initial Drawing(s) & Illumination(s) by God For Majority; A.K.A. Free Will Involving One’s Choice Towards the Lord, Grace, or Salvation (Note: Christ draws all men unto Himself, and God is not willing that any should perish.) (Note: All men are given an opportunity or opportunities by God to understand the "Offer of the Love of the Truth" so that they are able to receive it, or reject it of their own free will. - See: 2 Thessalonians 2:10.).​
#4. Provisional Majority Atonement (Based upon God’s Foreknowledge).​
#5. Partial Depravity.​
These points are influenced from the 5 points in Arminianism. My 5 points spells the word: CCUPP.
Okay, I can resonate with you, because I used to be a Classical Arminian. But please show me where in Scripture can I find this Prevenient Grace (Arminian View of it), and the biblical teaching of Partial Regeneration?

So when I was an Arminian, nobody could answer this for me. Both Calvinism & Arminianism agree upon Total Depravity. So, the next logical outcome is not Prevenient Grace (Arminian View), but Regeneration (Calvinist View). So, if we are dead in sins and trespasses, as scripture teaches we all are. How can Prevenient Grace (AV) explain how this works, if not regenerated? Why in the Arminian View some accept while others reject it if all receive equally amount of Prevenient Grace?​
 
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Carl Emerson

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Okay, I can resonate with you, because I used to be a Classical Arminian. But please show me where in Scripture can I find this Prevenient Grace (Arminian View of it), and the biblical teaching of Partial Regeneration?

So when I was an Arminian, nobody could answer this for me. Both Calvinism & Arminianism agree upon Total Depravity. So, the next logical outcome is not Prevenient Grace (Arminian View), but Regeneration (Calvinist View). So, if we are dead in sins and trespasses, as scripture teaches we all are. How can Prevenient Grace (AV) explain how this works, if not regenerated? Why in the Arminian View some accept while others reject it if all receive equally amount of Prevenient Grace?​

Good questions...
 
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maves

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Okay, I can resonate with you, because I used to be a Classical Arminian. But please show me where in Scripture can I find this Prevenient Grace (Arminian View of it), and the biblical teaching of Partial Regeneration?

So when I was an Arminian, nobody could answer this for me. Both Calvinism & Arminianism agree upon Total Depravity. So, the next logical outcome is not Prevenient Grace (Arminian View), but Regeneration (Calvinist View). So, if we are dead in sins and trespasses, as scripture teaches we all are. How can Prevenient Grace (AV) explain how this works, if not regenerated? Why in the Arminian View some accept while others reject it if all receive equally amount of Prevenient Grace?​
I don't defend the Arminian view. I affirm Eternal Security! Believers have passed from death into life (John 5) and are sealed with the promised Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1).

But your first premise is incorrect. Arminians do not affirm Total Depravity. They affirm Partial Depravity. Thus, your conclusion is unfounded.

However, I affirm that people sin and are unable to redeem themselves by any of their own efforts. They are totally depraved, innately corrupted, and completely sinful!

This does not mean, though, that they are (1) unable to know God's righteousness or (2) hear the call of the Gospel and repent!

(1) People are responsible, or as Romans 1 puts it, "without excuse". People know God, for "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them". Yes, we are born with a sinful nature, but we are not born suppressing the truth. Rather, through our unrighteousness, we come to suppress the truth. God is patient and "long-suffering" with us, but if we are stubborn, keep hardening our hearts, and resist the Holy Spirit (As Stephen rebukes the crowd in Acts 7:51: "You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!"), He will give them up to their own debased mind and hardened heart.
No one seeks for God, but God can be "clearly perceived" in the world He has created and especially in the person of Jesus Christ, for "in Him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily".

(2) Everyone can hear the command of Jesus to repent and believe, for "the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people"!! Now, let us proclaim, "let the wicked forsake their ways / and the unrighteous their thoughts. / Let them turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on them, / and to our God, for he will freely pardon".
Jesus Himself has said "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself".

Praise the Lord, for He has drawn me, too, and He will raise me up on the Last Day! I do not know everything about how I came to faith, but all that I know is that God drew me to Himself, I have faith in Christ's sacrifice, and I am justified by faith in Him, not by any work of my own. Praise God!

I humbly learn and seek to know more and more about our great God. Praise Him!

I hope this was helpful!
 
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