Please help me figure this out!

[Clare73]

Not sure I fully agree with your thesis on this...

It seems to me that man's free will and God's choosing are not compatible concepts.

I guess I need you to explain the incompatibility in mine following:

The human will does not operate in a vacuum, it is governed by the disposition--what one prefers, likes.
And God operates in their disposition, giving them to prefer him and his will, and then they freely and willingly choose what they prefer; i.e., him.
That is free will (choosing freely without external force or constraint) in operation.
Where is the incompatibility?

So God does not violate man's free will in bringing them to himself, he uses it to bring men to himself.

There is scriptural support for God's choosing.

As it pertains to salvation I don't believe free will plays a part as this happens before birth.

However free will plays a large part in our conscious response to God and we are rewarded for obedience.

But most folks don't see the two sperate issues - salvation and choosing - obedience and reward.

 

[Carl Emerson]

giving them to prefer him and his will, and then they freely and willingly choose what they prefer

This appears to be contradictory.

 

[Clare73]

This appears to be contradictory.

How is choosing what I prefer, without external force or constraint, contradictory to free will?

 

[Carl Emerson]

How is choosing what I prefer, without external force or constraint, contradictory to free will?

Because the irresistible preference was given by an external source.

 

[Clare73]

Because the irresistible preference was given by an external source.

There is no Biblical treatment of "free"will."
However, human free agency (ability to make choices)--in terms of the 1500+ year-old Biblical debate based on the philosophical notion of free will--is, contrary to popular opinion, no more and no less than about not being externally forced or constrained against one's preference.

As long as one is able to choose according to one's internal preference, one is a free agent.
The cause and nature of preference has nothing to do with the philosophical notion being applied to the doctrinal debate.
The philosophical notion deals only with the ability to freely choose according to internal preference.

Many applying the philosophical notion of free will neglect the fact that man's will is governed by his internal disposition (preference), that man's will does not operate in an indifferent vacuum.
However, the issue in free will is not about the disposition, it is about the ability of the will to choose what it prefers (everything else being a different matter).
And by that definition, man freely chooses what he prefers when he chooses God (who has worked in his internal disposition to give man to prefer God).

And the proof of all this is the human experience, we choose God because we prefer him.
Scripture is quite clear that without the influence of the Holy Spirit, man rebels against God.
There is no choice of God without God's own internal influence giving us to internally prefer him, whom we then freely choose without any external force or constraint. . .which is the philosophical meaning of "free will" being applied to the doctrinal debate.

 

[Carl Emerson]

There is no Biblical treatment of "free"will."
However, human free agency (ability to make choices)--in terms of the 1500+ year-old Biblical debate based on the philosophical notion of free will--is, contrary to popular opinion, no more and no less than about not being externally forced or constrained against one's preference.

As long as one is able to choose according to one's internal preference, one is a free agent.
The cause and nature of preference has nothing to do with the philosophical notion being applied to the doctrinal debate.
The philosophical notion deals only with the ability to freely choose according to internal preference.

Many applying the philosophical notion of free will neglect the fact that man's will is governed by his internal disposition (preference), that man's will does not operate in an indifferent vacuum.
However, the issue in free will is not about the disposition, it is about the ability of the will to choose what it prefers (everything else being a different matter).
And by that definition, man freely chooses what he prefers when he chooses God (who has worked in his internal disposition to give man to prefer God).

And the proof of all this is the human experience, we choose God because we prefer him.
Scripture is quite clear that without the influence of the Holy Spirit, man rebels against God.
There is no choice of God without God's own internal influence giving us to internally prefer him, whom we then freely choose without any external force or constraint. . .which is the philosophical meaning of "free will" being applied to the doctrinal debate.

Choosing the elect takes place well before birth.

There is no free will involved in this divine choosing.

However free will operates in life - otherwise obedience and judgement are a nonsense.

The confusion comes trying to merge these two separate issues into one.

 

[Clare73]

Choosing the elect takes place well before birth.

There is no free will involved in this divine choosing.

However free will operates in life - otherwise obedience and judgement are a nonsense.

The confusion comes trying to merge these two separate issues into one.

It's the same will operating in the same manner in both cases; i.e., choosing what it prefers,
some choices by God's work in man's disposition (which governs the will), giving man to prefer, and
other choices by nature operating in man's disposition (which governs the will), giving man to prefer.

When we understand that man's will does not operate in a vacuum (common misperception), but is governed by man's disposition, we see that it is one and the same will operating in all choices, spiritual and natural.

 

[Carl Emerson]

It's the same will operating in the same manner in both cases; i.e., choosing what it prefers,
some choices by God's work in man's disposition (which governs the will), giving man to prefer, and
other choices by nature operating in man's disposition (which governs the will), giving man to prefer.

When we understand that man's will does not operate in a vacuum (common misperception), but is is governed by man's disposition, we see that it is one and the same will operating in all choices, spiritual and natural.

OK two simple questions.

Were the elect chosen my God's will before they were conceived?

Are individual works of obedience chosen by man's will during their lifetime?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Because the irresistible preference was given by an external source.

So was the preference that came before it!

 

[Clare73]

OK two simple questions.

Were the elect chosen my God's will before they were conceived?

Are individual works of obedience chosen by man's will during their lifetime?

Yep (God accomplishing that election by operating in their spirits giving them to believe; i.e., the gift of faith, Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, Ac 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3).

Yep (God enabling both the will to obedience and the doing of obedience, Php 2:13).

 

[Mark Quayle]

Because the irresistible preference was given by an external source.

To put it another way, to will the obedience and to desire Christ now, is no less "me", than to will the enmity and desire sin before, was "me".

Christ said, "They are not of the world any more than I am of the world." (John 17:14)

 

[Mark Quayle]

OK two simple questions.

Were the elect chosen my God's will before they were conceived?

Are individual works of obedience chosen by man's will during their lifetime?

Carl, think of it as two different people. One born to prefer sin, and one born again to prefer God. Which one is more "me"? I can guarantee you that when I see you in Heaven, the question will seem preposterous, if it even comes up.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yep (God accomplishing that election by operating in their spirits giving them to believe; i.e., the gift of faith, Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, Ac 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3).

Yep (God enabling both the will to obedience and the doing of obedience, Php 2:13).

So you answered yes to both questions.

Question 1 - we agree.

Question 2 - the Elect have the choice to resist what God want's to do through them. If this were not so then eternal reward for the obedience of the saved would not be a happening thing...

 

[Mark Quayle]

So you answered yes to both questions.

Question 1 - we agree.

Question 2 - the Elect have the choice to resist what God want's to do through them. If this were not so then eternal reward for the obedience of the saved would not be a happening thing...

2. The elect have the choice to resist the Spirit of God, and disobey. They don't have the choice to resist God's regenerating them by the Spirit of God. They don't even know it is happening, until they realize they are born again.

 

[Lost Witness]

2. The elect have the choice to resist the Spirit of God, and disobey. They don't have the choice to resist God's regenerating them by the Spirit of God. They don't even know it is happening, until they realize they are born again.

Wasn't aware regeneration occured before being Born Again...
Is there scripture supporting this?

 

[BBAS 64]

OK two simple questions.

Were the elect chosen my God's will before they were conceived?

Are individual works of obedience chosen by man's will during their lifetime?

Good Day, Carl

As to the second Question:

Yes they are chosen freely by man, but God is the effective Cause in regeneration.

And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

This may be helpful:

 

[BBAS 64]

Wasn't aware regeneration occured before being Born Again...
Is there scripture supporting this?

Wasn't aware regeneration occured before being Born Again...
Is there scripture supporting this?

Good Day, Lost witness

They are the same thing.....

In Him,

Bill

 

[Clare73]

So you answered yes to both questions.

Question 1 - we agree.

Question 2 - the Elect have the choice to resist what God want's to do through them. If this were not so then eternal reward for the obedience of the saved would not be a happening thing...

The crowns we will receive are our eternal reward. . .but note what we do with those crowns. . .we cast them down before the throne. . . because the work was really God's work (Php 2:13) and the crowns really go to him.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The crowns we will receive are our eternal reward. . .but note what we do with those crowns. . .we cast them down before the throne. . . because the work was really God's work (Php 2:13) and the crowns really go to him.

Yes agreed but obedience was in the mix - clearly saints are rewarded for not resisting His Spirit within them.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Good Day, Carl

As to the second Question:

Yes they are chosen freely by man, but God is the effective Cause in regeneration.

And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

This may be helpful:

View attachment 330725

This might sound like a fine point but the quote above equates Salvation with coming into the Kingdom of God.

The way I understand it is that yes, He draws His elect to be born again and transferred into His family.


But... From there they have free will to Walk in the Spirit or not.

In that sense there is a realm of Kingdom blessing that even the elect can miss by resisting His Spirit within. By doing this they loose out on eternal reward.

Remember the believer in Pauls church captive to sexual sin - expelled that his soul might be saved - the sanctification on Him from being in fellowship was withdrawn so that he would be exposed to the torments of darkness and repent - which he did. Now he wasn't born again twice - this was a saved saint who fell into sin, was expelled, repented and returned. While this is an extreme example the same applies to all believers - the degree to which they co-operate with the Holy Spirit within results in blessing and eternal reward. If they resist the Spirit within the miss the blessing in this life and reward in the life to come.

So again I say that He draws the elect to salvation and rebirth and that is iresistable. God' will and choosing prevails.

Then they follow the Spirit rather than the flesh by exercising their own free will. We will all face His judgement concerning how obedient we have been during our walk with Him as believers.