Please explain to me why homosexuality is anathema to God.

Dear Ohioprof,

I don't believe Paul was commissioned by Jesus. I think he commissioned himself. I am not a Paul follower, and Paul did not speak for Jesus.

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Paul did speak for Jesus if Paul and Luke's testimonies are true. Gal 1, Acts 9. Paul's writing is lo endorsed by Peter 2 Peter 3.
You are just a non-believer

Well I guess that makes me a "non-believer" too then, as I don't follow Paul either. I follow Jesus.

Dear Catholicon,
Which Jesus do you follow then?

I follow Jesus Christ according to the Biblical testimony.

Phinehas2 said:

Dear Ohioprof,

Paul did speak for Jesus if Paul and Luke's testimonies are true. Gal 1, Acts 9. Paul's writing is lo endorsed by Peter 2 Peter 3.
You are just a non-believer

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You continue to affix labels to me. I believe in God. I don't believe the Bible is God's word. I have said this. Why do you repeat again and again that I am a non-believer? Why do you repeatedly fling labels at me? I don't do that to you. I don't repeatedly say, "You are a homophobe," or "You are a fundie." I don't label you at all.

Catholicon said:

Well I guess that makes me a "non-believer" too then, as I don't follow Paul either. I follow Jesus.

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We don't follow paul, we only recognize his teachings as God-inspired, in the same way as all of the prophets before Christ.

Catholicon said:

Well I guess that makes me a "non-believer" too then, as I don't follow Paul either. I follow Jesus.

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That's your own mistake.

(1Co 4:16) Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
(1Co 11:1) Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

We are to be followers of Paul, for he was a follower of Jesus. Primarily we are to follow Jesus. Paul was an excellent follower of Jesus, and we should walk in his footsteps.

Dear Ohioprof,

You continue to affix labels to

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me.

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No you fix them to yourself. I have given you what my God can do because my God’s testimony is the Bible, you don’t believe in my God of the Bible so you have a different god. Its just basic common sense.

I don't believe the Bible is God's word. I have said this. Why do you repeat again and again that I am a non-believer? Why do you repeatedly fling labels at me?

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I thought a person who doesn’t believe is a non-believer. The reason I keep flinging it at you is you keep flinging you believe the same God as me and then proceed to deny what my God can do. All you are doing is attacking and denying my God, please cease.

Dear Jet_A_Jockey,

We don't follow paul, we only recognize his teachings as God-inspired, in the same way as all of the prophets before Christ.

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We keep saying this, I suggest they can reognise us and the NT writers, but not the One who the NT writers write about whom we follow... Jesus Christ. It seems to them He is not a person but a concept.

Jet_A_Jockey said:

We don't follow paul, we only recognize his teachings as God-inspired, in the same way as all of the prophets before Christ.

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I don't believe his teachings are "God-inspired." I think some of Paul's teachings are wrong.

Phinehas2 said:

Dear Jet_A_Jockey,
We keep saying this, I suggest they can reognise us and the NT writers, but not the One who the NT writers write about whom we follow... Jesus Christ. It seems to them He is not a person but a concept.

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Jesus the person never said the things that Paul said. It's your invention that Paul spoke for Jesus. A belief only. Just because you believe it does not mean it is true.

Tell it to Paul when you meet him.

1Co 6:9

(ALT) You* know that unrighteous [ones] will not inherit [the] kingdom of God, do you* not? Stop being led astray [fig., being deceived]; neither sexual sinners nor idolaters nor adulterers nor passive partners in male-male sex nor active partners in male-male sex

(ASV) Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men,

(BBE) Have you not knowledge that evil-doers will have no part in the kingdom of God? Have no false ideas about this: no one who goes after the desires of the flesh, or gives worship to images, or is untrue when married, or is less than a man, or makes a wrong use of men,

(CEV) Don't you know that evil people won't have a share in the blessings of God's kingdom? Don't fool yourselves! No one who is immoral or worships idols or is unfaithful in marriage or is a pervert or behaves like a homosexual

(Darby) Do ye not know that unrighteous persons shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who make women of themselves, nor who abuse themselves with men,

(DRB) Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: Neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers:

(EMTV) Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,

(ESV) Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

(GNB) Surely you know that the wicked will not possess God's Kingdom. Do not fool yourselves; people who are immoral or who worship idols or are adulterers or homosexual perverts

(GNT) ἢ οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι ἄδικοι βασιλείαν Θεοῦ οὐ κληρονομήσουσι; μὴ πλανᾶσθε· οὔτε πόρνοι οὔτε εἰδωλολάτραι οὔτε μοιχοὶ οὔτε μαλακοὶ οὔτε ἀρσενοκοῖται

(GW) Don't you know that wicked people won't inherit the kingdom of God? Stop deceiving yourselves! People who continue to commit sexual sins, who worship false gods, those who commit adultery, homosexuals,

(ISV) You know that wicked people will not inherit the kingdom of God, don't you? Stop deceiving yourselves! Sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals,

(JPS)

(KJV) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

(KJV+) (2228) Know1492 ye not3756 that3754 the unrighteous94 shall not3756 inherit2816 the kingdom932 of God?2316 Be not3361 deceived:4105 neither3777 fornicators,4205 nor3777 idolaters,1496 nor3777 adulterers,3432 nor3777 effeminate,3120 nor3777 abusers of themselves with mankind,733

(KJV-1611) Know yee not that the vnrighteous shall not inherite the kingdome of God? Be not deceiued: neither fornicatours, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselues with mankinde,

(KJVR) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

(LITV) Or do you not know that unjust ones will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be led astray, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals,

(MKJV) Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor abusers, nor homosexuals,

(Murdock) Or do ye not know, that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not mistake; neither whoremongers, nor idol-worshippers, nor adulterers, nor debauchers, nor liers with males,

(RV) Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men,

(Webster) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

(WNT) Do you not know that unrighteous men will not inherit God's Kingdom? Cherish no delusion here. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor any who are guilty of unnatural crime,

(YLT) have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites,

Jesus rescinded the "laws" in Leviticus, so they no longer apply. We have no reason to believe Paul's attitude was nothing more than Levitical homophobia, so his opinion of homosexuality is also invalid.

Jesus taught us to love each other and tolerate our differences, he said nothing about same-sex relationships being a sin.

The problem with using Leviticus to prop up personal prejudice is three fold.

First we live under a new covenant with the command of Jesus as law. "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." John 13:34-35

to use Leviticus to condemn gay men is to ignore Jesus.

The second problem is one of application. I sincerely doubt that you personally follow all the varied laws listed in Leviticus.
Do you for example cut your hair? (I bet you do) if so you are sinning by breaking Lev. 19:27
Leviticus also says:
That eating pork is a sin (Lev. 11:7)
That eating lobster or shrimp or scallops or oysters is a sin (Lev. 11:10-12)
That wearing clothing made of different fabrics is a sin (Lev. 19:19)
That partaking in modern agriculture is a sin (Lev. 19:19)
That shaving is a sin (Lev. 19:27)
That contact with a woman during her period is a sin (Lev. 20:18)
That dining on escargot is a sin (Lev. 11:42)
That attending Church while wearing glasses is a sin or allowing anyone wearing glasses into your church is a sin(Lev 21:20)
That allowing anyone born with scoliosis into your church is a sin (Lev 21:20)
That allowing anyone who is handicapped into your church is a sin (Lev 21:20)

If you do not follow these laws then you have no business picking and choosing other laws of Leviticus to inflict upon others.


And third…and the real problem with using Leviticus to justify personal prejudice is that it does not condemn homosexuality at all.


Leviticus has many laws about having carnal relations with of another person the Hebrew word for sexual intercourse or carnal relations is "shakhabh". Multiple times we can find prohibitions about having carnal relations with any number of people. (though it is surprising to see who is not included) what we do not find in either Leviticus 18:22 or 20:13 is a prohibition of carnal relations (shakhabh) between two men. In literal translations we do not even find the strange and awkwardly worded “thou shall not lie” is the Hebrew "mishkabh", which elsewhere is translate as to lay on the ground next to and not considered to be sinful. Rather in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 we find the Hebrew word shakab. Shakab is used 52 times in the old testament and is always used to a sexual encounter typified by deceit or force, in other words, some type of rape.
Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 says that a man shall not force, or in any way coerce, another man to have sex. In other words, it is an abomination to rape a man. Homosexuality and consensual homosexual intercourse are not abominations and not sins. And a man raping a man is no more a description of homosexuality than a man raping a woman is a description of heterosexuality.

Dear Ohioprof,

Jesus the person never said the things that Paul said. It's your invention that Paul spoke for Jesus. A belief only. Just because you believe it does not mean it is true.

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No Paul says He speaks for Christ its not my invention its your disbelief, you are a disbeliver ... read Galatians 1 and see.

Dear EnemyPArtyII

The problem with using Leviticus to prop up personal prejudice is three fold.

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whether you consider Jesus Christ prejudice is your choice.

Phinehas2 said:

Dear EnemyPArtyII
whether you consider Jesus Christ prejudice is your choice. [/SIZE][/FONT]

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Huh? I never said any such thing... I'm talking about using Leviticus to prop up YOUR prejudices... Jesus removes our obligation to Leviticus, proving he had no such prejudice

EnemyPartyII said:

Huh? I never said any such thing... I'm talking about using Leviticus to prop up YOUR prejudices... Jesus removes our obligation to Leviticus, proving he had no such prejudice

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Explain to me how Jesus removed our obligation to leviticus? Do you understand the concept of 'fulfillment of law"?

Catholicon said:

Jesus rescinded the "laws" in Leviticus, so they no longer apply. We have no reason to believe Paul's attitude was nothing more than Levitical homophobia, so his opinion of homosexuality is also invalid.

Jesus taught us to love each other and tolerate our differences, he said nothing about same-sex relationships being a sin.

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He never rescinded anything.

re·scind

/rɪˈsɪnd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ri-sind] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –verb (used with object) 1.to abrogate; annul; revoke; repeal. 2.to invalidate (an act, measure, etc.) by a later action or a higher authority.
[Origin: 1630–40; < L rescindere to tear off again, cut away, equiv. to re- re- + scindere to tear, divide, destroy ]

—Related formsre·scind·a·ble, adjective
re·scind·er, noun
re·scind·ment, noun

—Synonyms 1. nullify; retract, withdraw. 2. countermand, repeal, veto.


Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006. American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This re·scind (r&#301;-s&#301;nd') Pronunciation Key
tr.v. re·scind·ed, re·scind·ing, re·scinds
To make void; repeal or annul.


The law is still there, it never went anywhere. In regards to our salvation, we do not rely on the law, but on Christ alone, as He fulfilled it. Jesus taught tolerance in that our service to God is the ultimate goal of our lives. What was His stand on false teachers?

Christ taught love. He said repent and sin no more, and His entire life on earth was in constant quotation of scripture, so how is it now null and void?

Ohioprof said:

Jesus the person never said the things that Paul said. It's your invention that Paul spoke for Jesus. A belief only. Just because you believe it does not mean it is true.

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Why do you read the bible at all ? Jesus never literally wrote a single page of it. Paul's life and claims were a testimony in his service to Christ, and his teachings were all in line with the rest of scripture. It's not a stretch to assume he was inspired as He claimed.