Please explain the Trinity

[razeontherock]

If the trinity consists of Gods and a God head,

It does not!

then IMO it is not a tiny speck, but something worth discussing.[/SIZE][/FONT]

Ken

Yes Trinity is worth discussing, but if it brings no benefit to you ... then it brings no benefit.

 

[razeontherock]

When the men of the Catholic Church came up with the Trinity, do you think they understood it?

K

I object to the statement "the Catholic Church came up with Trinity." The Church at the time penned a dogma, yes; but that bears little resemblance to modern day Catholicism.

 

[Ken-1122]

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

How many more ya need?

Does that mean it is God? or is it just one with God. Obviously the word isn't God!
Also the next verse says the spirit, the water, and the blood are one. Do you think these verses are meant to be taken literalally or figuratively?

K

 

[Ken-1122]

I object to the statement "the Catholic Church came up with Trinity." The Church at the time penned a dogma, yes; but that bears little resemblance to modern day Catholicism.

Are you suggesting the men who came up with the Trinity were not of the Catholic Church?

K

 

[razeontherock]

Does that mean it is God? or is it just one with God. Obviously the word isn't God!

Obviously what was there that we have translated as "the Word," IS G-d. How can you miss such a simple statement? (That takes real effort)

Just a tiny bit of understanding re: what was translated as "the Word:"


"1) of speech
a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
b) what someone has said
1) a word
2) the sayings of God
3) decree, mandate or order
4) of the moral precepts given by God
5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim
c) discourse
1) the act of speaking, speech
2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
3) a kind or style of speaking
4) a continuous speaking discourse - instruction
d) doctrine, teaching
e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law
g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed
2) its use as respect to the MIND alone
a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating
b) account, i.e. regard, consideration
c) account, i.e. reckoning, score
d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment
e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation
1) reason would
f) reason, cause, ground
3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.
Note: A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around 600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe."

IOW, bite your tongue, and learn a bit before you shoot your keyboard off half-cocked. "Logos" is a pretty big concept. If you want to be able to opine on any of this, you'll need to familiarize yourself with it. (And this is just a small part)

 

[razeontherock]

Are you suggesting the men who came up with the Trinity were not of the Catholic Church?

K

I'm saying that modern Catholics who want to equate their Catholicism with the state of the Church at that time, are just kidding themselves. Anyway, there were some seriously grave errors in understanding at the time, and Trinity was spelled out to clarify.

 

[Ken-1122]

Obviously what was there that we have translated as "the Word," IS G-d. How can you miss such a simple statement? (That takes real effort)

Just a tiny bit of understanding re: what was translated as "the Word:"


"1) of speech
a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
b) what someone has said
1) a word
2) the sayings of God
3) decree, mandate or order
4) of the moral precepts given by God
5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim
c) discourse
1) the act of speaking, speech
2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
3) a kind or style of speaking
4) a continuous speaking discourse - instruction
d) doctrine, teaching
e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law
g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed
2) its use as respect to the MIND alone
a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating
b) account, i.e. regard, consideration
c) account, i.e. reckoning, score
d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment
e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation
1) reason would
f) reason, cause, ground
3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.
Note: A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around 600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe."

IOW, bite your tongue, and learn a bit before you shoot your keyboard off half-cocked. "Logos" is a pretty big concept. If you want to be able to opine on any of this, you'll need to familiarize yourself with it. (And this is just a small part)

First of all, I'm just asking questions; there is no reason to be rude about it.
What about the second verse; it says the spirit, water, and blood are one. Is that literal or figurtiive?

K

 

[Ken-1122]

I'm saying that modern Catholics who want to equate their Catholicism with the state of the Church at that time, are just kidding themselves. Anyway, there were some seriously grave errors in understanding at the time, and Trinity was spelled out to clarify.

Nobody is talking about modern catholics. I'm talking about the men who came up with the trinity; they were Catholic, right? So where is your objection to what I said?

K

 

[razeontherock]

Nobody is talking about modern catholics. I'm talking about the men who came up with the trinity; they were Catholic, right? So where is your objection to what I said?

K

I've spelled that out repeatedly.

 

[Ken-1122]

I've spelled that out repeatedly.

I asked: "Did the men of the Catholic Church who came up with the concept of the Trinity understand it?"
Now what are you objecting to?

K

 

[elopez]

And I am of the opinion 3 persons can't exist simultaneously as one God. I guess this is something we are just gonna have to agree to disagree on huh?

Yeah I guess so, but it also remains your analogy is incomparable to the Trinity.

 

[Ken-1122]

Obviously what was there that we have translated as "the Word," IS G-d. How can you miss such a simple statement? (That takes real effort)

Just a tiny bit of understanding re: what was translated as "the Word:"


"1) of speech
a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
b) what someone has said
1) a word
2) the sayings of God
3) decree, mandate or order
4) of the moral precepts given by God
5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim
c) discourse
1) the act of speaking, speech
2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
3) a kind or style of speaking
4) a continuous speaking discourse - instruction
d) doctrine, teaching
e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law
g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed
2) its use as respect to the MIND alone
a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating
b) account, i.e. regard, consideration
c) account, i.e. reckoning, score
d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment
e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation
1) reason would
f) reason, cause, ground
3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.
Note: A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around 600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe."

IOW, bite your tongue, and learn a bit before you shoot your keyboard off half-cocked. "Logos" is a pretty big concept. If you want to be able to opine on any of this, you'll need to familiarize yourself with it. (And this is just a small part)

I don't see where it says "the word" is another name for Jesus.

K

 

[tinyfaith]

When the men of the Catholic Church came up with the Trinity, do you think they understood it?

K

I cant awser since i dont know their definition and since i never saw this word written in the bible. And as you know it is funny how men come up with things that is not even explained in the bible and how many things it is explained in the bible and that is not understood by men. And everything that comes out from leaders(preachers or priest/pope) has to be questioned since Jesus told us that the leader of our world is Satan. And you do great since you testing men's spirit to see truth in them as Jesus teaching us. Whoever claims something that is not in the bible as a truth, must be a prophet or a false prophet.

 

[DCJazz]

I realize several people have asked for an explanation of the Trinity, but the answers given doesn’t quite make sense to me and because I can’t respond on those threads I have to start my own. So here is my questions:
*Is Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit the same God with 3 nicknames? if so how could one be the son and the other the father?
*Are they each a fraction of a God and only when together they are a complete God? (kinda like the "egg white, yolk, and shell" explanation I've heard before
*Or are they each 3 separate Gods? (Polytheism)
If something different please explain

Ken

The way I've heard it explained is something like this.

A dog is a being, but no persons.
A human is a being, and 1 persons.
God is a being, and 3 persons. 3 in 1, anyone?


So yeah, something like that.

 

[sk8Joyful]

an explanation of the Trinity:
please explain
Ken

All three are the same Being, but in 3 different Representations.
Why?
(because as mortals most souls forget, GOD is without a physical body);
so because they CANT relate to Him, GOD Presents
Himself to us in 3 different forms, we CAN relate to:
1. water - God

2. Solid/ice -> Jesus

3. steam -> Holy Ghost

 

[ElijahW]

When the men of the Catholic Church came up with the Trinity, do you think they understood it?

K

Yes, but they were familiar with the philosophy of the time. Today, few people understand Plato, so will have a difficult time understanding the Trinity in Christianity.

 

[razeontherock]

I don't see where it says "the word" is another name for Jesus.

K

Oy. Have you read the Gospel of John? (John 1:1) "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(John 1:14) "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us"

You've never seen that before? Really? There ya go.

 

[Ken-1122]

The way I've heard it explained is something like this.

A dog is a being, but no persons.
A human is a being, and 1 persons.
God is a being, and 3 persons. 3 in 1, anyone?


So yeah, something like that.

Sorry it doesn’t work that way. You can have several beings and only one of them be a person/human; because it will be assumed the other beings will be either animals/beasts, insects, amphibians, etc. but you can’t have one person, insect, animal, etc equal several beings at the same time.
K

 

[Ken-1122]

All three are the same Being, but in 3 different Representations.
Why?
(because as mortals most souls forget, GOD is without a physical body);
so because they CANT relate to Him, GOD Presents
Himself to us in 3 different forms, we CAN relate to:
1. water - God

2. Solid/ice -> Jesus

3. steam -> Holy Ghost

Ice, water, and steam are not the same, and H2 O is never water, steam, and water at the same time.
K

 

[Ken-1122]

Yes, but they were familiar with the philosophy of the time. Today, few people understand Plato, so will have a difficult time understanding the Trinity in Christianity.

There are plenty of people today who understand Plato, and plenty of people of yesteryear who did not.
Why is understanding Plato necessary to understand the Trintity?

K