Please explain the Trinity

[Ken-1122]

Yes, they were influenced by Plato. No, it's still understood as three persons, but the persons aren't understood as people. They aren't to be understood like a television show would present a Ghost or God.

So how did these men precieve the Father, Son and Holy Ghost?

Ken

 

[simonpeter]

Would this example help in understanding the trinity?

Wooden table, wooden cot, wooden chair - they are one in essence (wood) but three distinct things (as table, cot, chair).

 

[ElijahW]

So how did these men precieve the Father, Son and Holy Ghost?

Ken

I already gave an explanation about how they were conceived of at the time. What parts do I need to explain in more detail or was confusing to you?

 

[Ken-1122]

Would this example help in understanding the trinity?

Wooden table, wooden cot, wooden chair - they are one in essence (wood) but three distinct things (as table, cot, chair).

The analogy doesn't work because the table, cot, chair are each a fraction of a complete set, and only when together become a complete set.
Nobody thus far wants to define the father, son, and HS as each a fraction of God, they want to claim each as a complete God yet when together they all equal only 1 complete God.

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

I already gave an explanation about how they were conceived of at the time. What parts do I need to explain in more detail or was confusing to you?

First you say the men of the catholic church who came up with the trinity understood it because they were influenced by Plato.
Then you say Plato did not see God as a being to be worshipped, but one who should be engaged via intellect.
If you are claiming the catholic church who came up with the trinity, decided which books should be in the bible and which ones should not; who shaped much of what we know about Christianity today; did not want God to be worshipped; even though I will respect your opinion, I think there would be many on this forum who will disagree with you.

Ken

 

[simonpeter]

The analogy doesn't work because the table, cot, chair are each a fraction of a complete set, and only when together become a complete set.
Nobody thus far wants to define the father, son, and HS as each a fraction of God, they want to claim each as a complete God yet when together they all equal only 1 complete God.

Ken

Table is different from cot, which is different from chair. Yet table is wood, cot is wood, chair is wood.

 

[razeontherock]

The analogy doesn't work because the table, cot, chair are each a fraction of a complete set, and only when together become a complete set.
Nobody thus far wants to define the father, son, and HS as each a fraction of God, they want to claim each as a complete God yet when together they all equal only 1 complete God.

Ken

Just as an aside, i wonder if your statement here is doctrinally pure, as in per the ancient Faith? I think it might be ...

 

[Ken-1122]

Table is different from cot, which is different from chair. Yet table is wood, cot is wood, chair is wood.

Their ingrediants may be the same, (wood, nails, and varnish) but they are not the same pieces of furniture.
My twin brother and I may have the same ingrediants; (blood, bones, genetics,etc) but it would be ridiculas to claim we are the same person

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

Just as an aside, i wonder if your statement here is doctrinally pure, as in per the ancient Faith? I think it might be ...

I don't quite follow you; what do you mean?

K

 

[ElijahW]

First you say the men of the catholic church who came up with the trinity understood it because they were influenced by Plato.
Then you say Plato did not see God as a being to be worshipped, but one who should be engaged via intellect.

How far have you moved your understanding of God from being like a human? Could you give me a few sentences about what you think Plato was saying again? Just to see where you are at.

If you are claiming the catholic church who came up with the trinity, decided which books should be in the bible and which ones should not; who shaped much of what we know about Christianity today; did not want God to be worshipped; even though I will respect your opinion, I think there would be many on this forum who will disagree with you.

Ken

Many may disagree with me but what does that matter? I thought the goal was for you to understand the Trinity?

 

[GuardianShua]

 

[GuardianShua]

First you say the men of the catholic church who came up with the trinity understood it because they were influenced by Plato.
Then you say Plato did not see God as a being to be worshipped, but one who should be engaged via intellect.
If you are claiming the catholic church who came up with the trinity, decided which books should be in the bible and which ones should not; who shaped much of what we know about Christianity today; did not want God to be worshipped; even though I will respect your opinion, I think there would be many on this forum who will disagree with you.

Ken

I would tell you what the truth is, but it is against the rules.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Their ingrediants may be the same, (wood, nails, and varnish) but they are not the same pieces of furniture.
My twin brother and I may have the same ingrediants; (blood, bones, genetics,etc) but it would be ridiculas to claim we are the same person

Ken

Correct. But you and your twin are both human.

The key difference is that you and your twin are separate instances of human being, thus you are two different human beings. Whereas God is one instance of God-being as there is only one God-being.

If you and your twin were the same human being--not the same person (and not in a dissociative identity disorder sense mind you)--then it would be an example of binitarian existence. The notion requires a level of imagination here, as it asks one to abstract the concept of being to something beyond individual personhood.

To help the thinking exercise, try and imagine if you will a rock. A rock has being, it has existence, a rock existence. However we wouldn't speak of the rock as a person. It's one being, zero persons.

Is it quite so difficult to imagine, abstractly, the notion of being existing in and as three distinct "persons"? I'm saying abstractly, because it has to be abstract since the notion is fundamentally outside of our experience.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ken-1122]

How far have you moved your understanding of God from being like a human? Could you give me a few sentences about what you think Plato was saying again? Just to see where you are at.

Actually my intrest is not in Plato. Thus far I've read much about Plato and none of it seems to answer my questions about understanding the Trinity. If it did, can you point it out for me?

K

 

[Ken-1122]

I would tell you what the truth is, but it is against the rules.

Kinda sucks doesn't is???

K

 

[Ken-1122]

Correct. But you and your twin are both human.

The key difference is that you and your twin are separate instances of human being, thus you are two different human beings. Whereas God is one instance of God-being as there is only one God-being.

My brother and I are both human but are only a fraction of the entity called "twins".
My question is, Is the father, son, and Holy Ghost, all God but individually only a fraction/part of the entity called the Trinity?

K

 

[ElijahW]

Actually my intrest is not in Plato. Thus far I've read much about Plato and none of it seems to answer my questions about understanding the Trinity. If it did, can you point it out for me?
K

It was pointed out to you. You said you would let me know when I went over your head but you didn't follow through with that. I have no idea what understanding you are working with when reading what I wrote, or if you are still clinging to understanding spiritual elements and God like a character on television.

It is puzzling why Plato is so hard to understand. The power of television to form opinions and maintain them is impressive.

 

[Ken-1122]

It was pointed out to you. You said you would let me know when I went over your head but you didn't follow through with that. I have no idea what understanding you are working with when reading what I wrote, or if you are still clinging to understanding spiritual elements and God like a character on television.

It is puzzling why Plato is so hard to understand. The power of television to form opinions and maintain them is impressive.

I learned a lot from television, but nothing about God from television. The extent of what I learned about God came from the Bible and what other Christians said about God.
I understand Plato’s idea that God was not to be worshipped or sacrificed to but rather to be engaged via intellect; but how does that relate to the trinity?

Ken

 

[ElijahW]

[FONT=&quot]

I learned a lot from television, but nothing about God from television. The extent of what I learned about God came from the Bible and what other Christians said about God.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Your understanding of words, including those in the Bible, comes from your experience with what the words describe. You know what a table is from encountering a table. You know what a shepherd is from seeing one. This is not the case with God, or the Holy Spirit or any other constants in the universe. This is where artistic representation comes in, both poetic and visual. The problem is that people have a tendency to take the artistic representation literally. They imagine God or gods as people in the sky watching over them with super powers.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The big problem is that people who have this thinking are unable to identify people who don’t. They assume the meanings of the words to be how they understand them from art and assume everyone (now and in the past) is working with the same understanding. They are just making different points about the sky genies behavior or ability. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Your understanding of the words in discussion are so superstitious that you aren’t going to be able to understand or recognize a coherent point about the Trinity. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

I understand Plato’s idea that God was not to be worshipped or sacrificed to but rather to be engaged via intellect; but how does that relate to the trinity?

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The intellect is the middle part of the Trinity. Jesus personifying it with his life and death is the last part. An active God being the source of the middle part is the first part. There is no point discussing this until we are sure you aren’t working with anthropomorphic understandings of God.[/FONT]

 

[Ken-1122]

Everyone seems to be saying “God” is like one being but maybe God is a group! Maybe the term God; the father, son and holy ghost, is like saying (in my case) the Jones family; me my brother, sister, and parents. So just as you say 1 God 3 persons, the Jones family is 1 family 5 persons. Jesus is not a complete God by himself, he is just a member of God as is the Father, and Holy Spirit, and I am not a complete Jones family by myself I am just a member of the Jones family; as is my siblings, and parents.
What do you think? For those who object, are there any bible references to back up your objections?

Ken