Please explain if no one is predestined

[Hammster]

4. “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”
Jesus is telling Nicodemus that just as he cannot see the actual “wind" he can see the effects of the wind. He is telling Nicodemus that it is not a physical birth that he can see, but it is a birth of the Spirit of God that after it occurs, we can see the effects of it.

He really should have been aware of Ezekiel 36.

 

[Hammster]

Since God makes them equal in His Word ... shouldn't we?

Okay. So one must be saved before they can see and enter the kingdom of God. That’s what I’ve been saying.

 

[Hammster]

Please allow me to try to attempt to bring some clarity ...

Let's go to Numbers (since that's what Jesus did).

21:4 And they journeyed from mount Hor by the way of the Red sea, to compass the land of Edom: and the soul of the people was much discouraged because of the way. Numbers

The Israelites are in the wilderness wondering around (oh yes, because of their unbelief).

Maybe they figured their journey should have been a cake walk, but I guess they forgot, this wasn't a reward for being good.

So times get rough, and they get discouraged.

21:5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread. Numbers

So even though the people already have it rough, they decide the best course of action is to talk against God, and the man of God! Great!!!


21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. Numbers

So God bless does one of those "Oh really" things.

21:7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. Numbers

So when people started dying for being stupid (on top of being rebellious), God now has their attention. So they run to Moses with THEIR solution to the problem.

21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. Numbers

God however, has a different plan. You see, just taking away the serpents doesn't teach the people anything. No, God has a better idea.

Now forgive me, but I must sort of do this as I have done it in the classroom.

Let's look again at our text ...

"Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live".

Okay, Moses has his orders from God. He runs to a group of men, and tells different men to do different things, "but hurry, because people are dying".

One must dig a hole near the center of the camp. One must gather some brass (it's a judgment). One must build a fire, one must find the blacksmith. Then Moses says, Spread the word, I'm going to be raising up a brazen serpent on a pole in the middle of the camp; God said, If you look at it, you will live.

Now think about what is going on. There are a group of men preparing a brazen serpent to be raised in the camp. There are others who are spreading the word about the plan of God. Then there are those who are either sick, or near the point of death.

Among the sick, I'm sure there were those who angrily said, I ain't looking at no stupid brazen serpent. (Now depending on how close he was to death ... he probably died angry. That would be those people who simply said, I don't believe that's a good plan. Since they didn't first have faith, (to look), they obviously didn't look; and then obviously died.)


There were others there who thought to themselves, what do I have to loose, I'll just take God at His word, (faith), and go have a look! Guess what? They lived!

There were others that were too sick to get there on their own, but believed that God would do as He said, so they, in faith, asked to be taken to the brazen serpent, so they could look. So yes, they also lived.

In each case, either the lack of faith caused death, or faith led to God giving life.

It happened in the wilderness ... it happened again ... at Calvary.

I’m not seeing where Jesus said that He must be lifted up and people need to look on Him to be saved.

 

[Dr. Jack]

He really should have been aware of Ezekiel 36.

Are you saying that Jesus should have taken Nicodemus to Ezekiel 36 instead of Numbers 21?

 

[Dr. Jack]

I’m not seeing where Jesus said that He must be lifted up and people need to look on Him to be saved.

What do you think Jesus meant by,

3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John

 

[Dr. Jack]

I guess Jesus just randomly stated these verses ...

3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John

11:6 When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was.12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die. John


6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. John


1. When Jesus was lifted up, He drew all men.
2. The reason He was lifted up is because No man can come to God, unless he is drawn to God.
3. That is why He drew all men.
4. But like the people in the wilderness with the brazen serpent, if you don't have faith in the one providing life ... you die.

The provision was there for "whosoever", but only some chose to believe the promise.

 

[Hammster]

Are you saying that Jesus should have taken Nicodemus to Ezekiel 36 instead of Numbers 21?

No.

 

[Hammster]

What do you think Jesus meant by,

3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John

Exactly what He said. He would be lifted up, but on a cross. Those who are believing are saved.

 

[Hammster]

I guess Jesus just randomly stated these verses ...

3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John

11:6 When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was.12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die. John


6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. John


1. When Jesus was lifted up, He drew all men.
2. The reason He was lifted up is because No man can come to God, unless he is drawn to God.
3. That is why He drew all men.
4. But like the people in the wilderness with the brazen serpent, if you don't have faith in the one providing life ... you die.

The provision was there for "whosoever", but only some chose to believe the promise.

Cut and paste theology has no real merit, especially when context is ignored.

 

[Dr. Jack]

Exactly what He said. He would be lifted up, but on a cross. Those who are believing are saved.

So what was the purpose of Jesus bringing the brazen serpent into the equation?

 

[Hammster]

So what was the purpose of Jesus bringing the brazen serpent into the equation?

Because He was also lifted up.

I understand that you need to defend your tradition. But if you take the passage at face value, it shows regeneration preceding faith.

 

[Dr. Jack]

Because He was also lifted up.

I understand that you need to defend your tradition. But if you take the passage at face value, it shows regeneration preceding faith.

No, Jesus told Nicodemus he needed to be saved. ut Nicodemus had no clue what Jesus was talking about.

I want you to pause for a moment, think, and tell me why it is that Nicodemus wouldn't understand what Jesus was talking about.

 

[Hammster]

No, Jesus told Nicodemus he needed to be saved. ut Nicodemus had no clue what Jesus was talking about.

I want you to pause for a moment, think, and tell me why it is that Nicodemus wouldn't understand what Jesus was talking about.

He told him he needed to be regenerated. And he didn’t understand a lot. Ezekiel 26 comes to mind. Valley of dry bones. The fact that redemption precedes law. There’s quite a bit, actually, that he should have known.

 

[Dr. Jack]

Because He was also lifted up.

I understand that you need to defend your tradition. But if you take the passage at face value, it shows regeneration preceding faith.

You say that people need to be regenerated in order to "understand" the gospel.

So here is what is happening in John 3 ...

(Jn. 3:3) Jesus tells Nicodemus he must be born again, BUT

(Jn. 3:4) Nicodemus DOESN'T understand.

(Jn. 3:5,6,7,8) Jesus says, marvel not.

(Jo. 3:9) Nicodemus STILL doesn't understand.

Now if regeneration precedes faith, (because it allows people to understand), Nicodemus is obviously NOT regenerated.

(Jn. 3:11, 12) Jesus QUESTIONS why Nicodemus doesn't understand.

Observe:


3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? John

If regeneration PRECEDES faith, why doesn't Jesus seem to be aware of that?

Jesus is God, who works in harmony with the HS. Jesus is talking to Nicodemus about being born again, but it seems the HS isn't co-operating, because clearly, Nicodemus has no idea a out what Jesus is talking about.

Now Jesus actually asks Jesus, "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"

Now think about that question.

Part one:

"If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not"

Jesus gives His question to Nicodemus a preface ...

I've told you earthly things, and ye believe not".

The word "you" and "ye" are plural. Jesus has been teaching while Nicodemus has been with others (rabbi's); and none of them believe what He has been saying, even though, He has taught about earthly things.

Part two:

"how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"

Jesus point blank asks Nicodemus, How then can you expect to believe heavenly (spiritual) things?

It is very clear that although Jesus may have been telling Nicodemus ABOUT being born again ... Nicodemus HASN'T been born again.

From this point, Jesus begins to tell Nicodemus why He came down from heaven.

Question ... Why does Jesus ask Nicodemus the previous question?

 

[Hammster]

You say that people need to be regenerated in order to "understand" the gospel.

So here is what is happening in John 3 ...

(Jn. 3:3) Jesus tells Nicodemus he must be born again, BUT

(Jn. 3:4) Nicodemus DOESN'T understand.

(Jn. 3:5,6,7,8) Jesus says, marvel not.

(Jo. 3:9) Nicodemus STILL doesn't understand.

Now if regeneration precedes faith, (because it allows people to understand), Nicodemus is obviously NOT regenerated.

(Jn. 3:11, 12) Jesus QUESTIONS why Nicodemus doesn't understand.

Observe:


3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? John

If regeneration PRECEDES faith, why doesn't Jesus seem to be aware of that?

Jesus is God, who works in harmony with the HS. Jesus is talking to Nicodemus about being born again, but it seems the HS isn't co-operating, because clearly, Nicodemus has no idea a out what Jesus is talking about.

Now Jesus actually asks Jesus, "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"

Now think about that question.

Part one:

"If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not"

Jesus gives His question to Nicodemus a preface ...

I've told you earthly things, and ye believe not".

The word "you" and "ye" are plural. Jesus has been teaching while Nicodemus has been with others (rabbi's); and none of them believe what He has been saying, even though, He has taught about earthly things.

Part two:

"how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"

Jesus point blank asks Nicodemus, How then can you expect to believe heavenly (spiritual) things?

It is very clear that although Jesus may have been telling Nicodemus ABOUT being born again ... Nicodemus HASN'T been born again.

From this point, Jesus begins to tell Nicodemus why He came down from heaven.

Question ... Why does Jesus ask Nicodemus the previous question?

Maybe Nic wasn’t born again yet. And maybe he’s like the disciples who didn’t understand what was going on until after the resurrection.

The scripture doesn’t say.

 

[Dr. Jack]

He told him he needed to be regenerated. And he didn’t understand a lot. Ezekiel 26 comes to mind. Valley of dry bones. The fact that redemption precedes law. There’s quite a bit, actually, that he should have known.

You're really missing the point. I'll give you a hint, Paul was taught by the great Gamaliel, but he didn't get it either ... none of them did.

 

[Hammster]

You're really missing the point. I'll give you a hint, Paul was taught by the great Gamaliel, but he didn't get it either ... none of them did.

Mkay. Not sure how that addresses my point, but oh well.

 

[Dr. Jack]

Maybe Nic wasn’t born again yet. And maybe he’s like the disciples who didn’t understand what was going on until after the resurrection.

The scripture doesn’t say.

Then why was Jesus telling Nicodemus what he had to know, since He knew Nicodemus wasn't understanding Him?

 

[Hammster]

Then why was Jesus telling Nicodemus what he had to know, since He knew Nicodemus wasn't understanding Him?

The same reason Jesus told the disciples things that they didn’t understand. Just read the book. There’s a lot they didn’t understand.

 

[Dr. Jack]

The same reason Jesus told the disciples things that they didn’t understand. Just read the book. There’s a lot they didn’t understand.

But Nicodemus wasn't His disciple.