Please explain if no one is predestined

[BNR32FAN]

The elected can use their free will to fall.
Non-elect demons can perform miracles.

That doesn’t coincide with the scriptures pertaining to those who are written in the book of life or the vessels of mercy. The names in the book of life were written before creation and the vessels of mercy were prepared beforehand (before creation). This was accomplished thru God’s foreknowledge of what would transpire. God did not prepare beforehand the vessels of wrath and the names of those who would not be victorious over the world are not written in the book of life. Since the book of life was written before creation by God’s foreknowledge it will not be edited. Contrary to what some believe people cannot be blotted out of the book of life. There are actually no scriptures that directly say that anyone will be blotted out because only those who endure to the end are written in it.

 

[BCsenior]

Since the book of life was written before creation by God’s foreknowledge it will not be edited. Contrary to what some believe people cannot be blotted out of the book of life. There are actually no scriptures that directly say that anyone will be blotted out because only those who endure to the end are written in it.

"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." (Revelation 3:5)

This leads me to believe that those failing to overcome
will have their names blotted out. If everything is done beforehand, then so shall the blotting out be!

 

[fhansen]

What or who causes one sinner to have faith and another to not have faith?

Faith, itself, is a gift, unmerited, impossible to obtain on our own. But it's a gift that can still be refused and rejected.

 

[BCsenior]

Faith, itself, is a gift, unmerited, impossible to obtain on our own. But it's a gift that can still be refused and rejected.

What about taken back by God?
Grace can be lost.
Is that the same as being taken back?

 

[fhansen]

What about taken back by God?
Grace can be lost.
Is that the same as being taken back?

I think it's both/and, rather than either/or. God won't take back something that we accept and run with. But, as with the wicked servant in the Parable of the Talents, God took back what was given and gave it to others when that servant buried what had been given him.

 

[BCsenior]

I think it's both/and, rather than either/or. God won't take back something that we accept and run with. But, as with the wicked servant in the Parable of the Talents, God took back what was given and gave it to others when that servant buried what had been given him.

Hey, good observation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." (Revelation 3:5)

This leads me to believe that those failing to overcome
will have their names blotted out. If everything is done beforehand, then so shall the blotting out be!

But Jesus doesn’t say someone will be blotted out He actually says they won’t be blotted out. Why would God write someone in the book of life then immediately blot them out before creation? They wouldn’t be written in to begin with.

 

[FreeGrace2]

BCsenior said: ↑
"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." (Revelation 3:5)

This leads me to believe that those failing to overcome
will have their names blotted out. If everything is done beforehand, then so shall the blotting out be!

But Jesus doesn’t say someone will be blotted out He actually says they won’t be blotted out. Why would God write someone in the book of life then immediately blot them out before creation? They wouldn’t be written in to begin with.

This verse is used by many as evidence that eternal life can be lost or taken away.

However, since Scripture cannot contradict itself, and that definitely would contradict other Scripture, most notably John 10:28, the only way to understand this verse is to realize that it uses a literary technique called a "litotes".

From Definition of LITOTES

understatement in which an affirmative is expressed by the negative of the contrary (as in "not a bad singer" or "not unhappy")

Even if you've never heard the word litotes, chances are you've encountered this figure of speech. If you've ever approved of a job well done by exclaiming "Not bad!" or told someone that you are "not unhappy" when you are ecstatic, you've even used it yourself. In fact, you might say that it would be "no mean feat" to avoid this common feature of our language! And litotes isn't only common; it's also simple—etymologically speaking, that is. Litotes evolved from a Greek word meaning "simple," and perhaps ultimately from another Greek word meaning "linen cloth."

So, no one has to worry about being "blotted out" of the book of life.

 

[BNR32FAN]

BCsenior said: ↑
"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." (Revelation 3:5)

This leads me to believe that those failing to overcome
will have their names blotted out. If everything is done beforehand, then so shall the blotting out be!

This verse is used by many as evidence that eternal life can be lost or taken away.

However, since Scripture cannot contradict itself, and that definitely would contradict other Scripture, most notably John 10:28, the only way to understand this verse is to realize that it uses a literary technique called a "litotes".

From Definition of LITOTES

understatement in which an affirmative is expressed by the negative of the contrary (as in "not a bad singer" or "not unhappy")

Even if you've never heard the word litotes, chances are you've encountered this figure of speech. If you've ever approved of a job well done by exclaiming "Not bad!" or told someone that you are "not unhappy" when you are ecstatic, you've even used it yourself. In fact, you might say that it would be "no mean feat" to avoid this common feature of our language! And litotes isn't only common; it's also simple—etymologically speaking, that is. Litotes evolved from a Greek word meaning "simple," and perhaps ultimately from another Greek word meaning "linen cloth."

So, no one has to worry about being "blotted out" of the book of life.

I agree that no one will be blotted out of the book of life but I do believe people can be on the path to salvation and fall away and thus forfeit their salvation. These people were not written in the book of life because they didn’t endure and abide.

 

[fhansen]

BCsenior said: ↑
"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." (Revelation 3:5)

This leads me to believe that those failing to overcome
will have their names blotted out. If everything is done beforehand, then so shall the blotting out be!

This verse is used by many as evidence that eternal life can be lost or taken away.

However, since Scripture cannot contradict itself, and that definitely would contradict other Scripture, most notably John 10:28, the only way to understand this verse is to realize that it uses a literary technique called a "litotes".

From Definition of LITOTES

understatement in which an affirmative is expressed by the negative of the contrary (as in "not a bad singer" or "not unhappy")

Even if you've never heard the word litotes, chances are you've encountered this figure of speech. If you've ever approved of a job well done by exclaiming "Not bad!" or told someone that you are "not unhappy" when you are ecstatic, you've even used it yourself. In fact, you might say that it would be "no mean feat" to avoid this common feature of our language! And litotes isn't only common; it's also simple—etymologically speaking, that is. Litotes evolved from a Greek word meaning "simple," and perhaps ultimately from another Greek word meaning "linen cloth."

So, no one has to worry about being "blotted out" of the book of life.

It really just means that no one knows with perfect certainty who is "in" to begin with, and who is not.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I agree that no one will be blotted out of the book of life but I do believe people can be on the path to salvation and fall away and thus forfeit their salvation.

I understand "on the path to salvation" as meaning becoming closer to placing their faith/trust in Christ for salvation. Therefore, those who fall away from that never had salvation in the first place.

Recall what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life to: they shall never perish.

These people were not written in the book of life because they didn’t endure and abide.

The possession of eternal life is a present possession of whoever believes in Christ, per John 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:11, 13. So the MOMENT a person believes, they are given the gift of eternal life by Jesus, and He says they shall never perish.

There are no verses about having to endure and abide in order to receive eternal life. They MUST believe in Christ to receive eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It really just means that no one knows with perfect certainty who is "in" to begin with, and who is not.

We certainly do know the principle by which God operates His own plan. He tells us in His word. Those who believe are given eternal life and are saved.

So, from that, we know with perfect certainty that all who have believed are saved, have the gift of eternal life, and shall never perish.

Regarding specific names, of course that belongs to God alone.

 

[fhansen]

We certainly do know the principle by which God operates His own plan. He tells us in His word. Those who believe are given eternal life and are saved.

So, from that, we know with perfect certainty that all who have believed are saved, have the gift of eternal life, and shall never perish.

Regarding specific names, of course that belongs to God alone.

Ok?- but the names merely identify who is saved. In any case there's a contingency. We must remain in Him and He in us. We must remain faithful. We must cultivate and develop that life of faith; we must "invest" our talents, with more expected from those who're given more.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ok?- but the names merely identify who is saved.

My point was that Scripture says that whoever believes is saved. From our perspective, names aren't important, or necessary. God, being omniscient, has always known from eternity past who will believe and their names are in the book of life.

In any case there's a contingency. We must remain in Him and He in us.

There are not verses that say this. Where did you get this from? I recommend the "Berean" method and follow Acts 11:17.

We must remain faithful.

Jesus stated in very clear words that whoever believes possesses eternal life in John 5:24 and 6:47, and repeated by John in 1 John 5:11 and 13.

Then Jesus said He gives them (believers) eternal life and they shall never perish in John 10:28.

Between being given eternal life and never perishing, Jesus mentioned NO "contingencies".

We must cultivate and develop that life of faith; we must "invest" our talents, with more expected from those who're given more.

If you think that's how one ultimately gets to heaven, your religion is work based, just like the Pharisees. And Jesus condemned them for it.[/QUOTE]

 

[BNR32FAN]

I understand "on the path to salvation" as meaning becoming closer to placing their faith/trust in Christ for salvation. Therefore, those who fall away from that never had salvation in the first place.

Recall what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life to: they shall never perish.


The possession of eternal life is a present possession of whoever believes in Christ, per John 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:11, 13. So the MOMENT a person believes, they are given the gift of eternal life by Jesus, and He says they shall never perish.

There are no verses about having to endure and abide in order to receive eternal life. They MUST believe in Christ to receive eternal life.

And what is the primary definition of the word believe (pisteúō)? Notice below the first 3 descriptions all have a number 1 in front of them indicating that all three are the primary definition of the word believe or pisteúō.

believe

G4100


G4100


Lemma:

πιστεύω


Transliteration:

pisteúō


Pronounce:

pist-yoo'-o


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in a) of the thing believed

1) to credit, have confidence b) in a moral or religious reference

1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith

2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity a) to be intrusted with a thing

 

[BNR32FAN]

I understand "on the path to salvation" as meaning becoming closer to placing their faith/trust in Christ for salvation. Therefore, those who fall away from that never had salvation in the first place.

Recall what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life to: they shall never perish.


The possession of eternal life is a present possession of whoever believes in Christ, per John 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:11, 13. So the MOMENT a person believes, they are given the gift of eternal life by Jesus, and He says they shall never perish.

There are no verses about having to endure and abide in order to receive eternal life. They MUST believe in Christ to receive eternal life.

The primary definition of the word believer (pistós) also implies obedience or trustworthiness.

believer

G4103


G4103


Lemma:

πιστός


Transliteration:

pistós


Pronounce:

pis-tos'


Part of Speech:

Adjective


Language:

greek


Description:

1) trusty, faithful a) of persons who show themselves faithful in the transaction of business, the execution of commands, or the discharge of official duties b) one who kept his plighted faith, worthy of trust c) that can be relied on

2) easily persuaded a) believing, confiding, trusting b) in the NT one who trusts in God's promises

1) one who is convinced that Jesus has been raised from the dead

2) one who has become convinced that Jesus is the Messiah and author of salvation

 

[BCsenior]

The primary definition of the word believer (pistós) also implies obedience or trustworthiness.

Please just consider this ... some Greek words in the
NT have slightly different meanings than the secular.

I.E. What other Greek word could have been used
which included "obey"? ... As in ...
believe = faith, trust, obedience

IMO, there is NO such Greek word!

No available word, so we'll just have to consult
the rest of the NT to determine what "pisteou"
means IN THE NT.

------------------------------------------------------------
This resolves the conflict amongst all of the NT verses
concerning eternal security, i.e. OSAS ... or NO OSAS:
True saving belief = enduring faith-trust-obedience
------------------------------------------------------------

BTW, thanks to you, I'm havin' trouble countin' 1-2-3.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And what is the primary definition of the word believe (pisteúō)? Notice below the first 3 descriptions all have a number 1 in front of them indicating that all three are the primary definition of the word believe or pisteúō.

believe

G4100


G4100

Lemma:

πιστεύω

Transliteration:

pisteúō

Pronounce:

pist-yoo'-o

Part of Speech:

Verb

Language:

greek

Description:

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in a) of the thing believed

1) to credit, have confidence b) in a moral or religious reference

1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith

2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity a) to be intrusted with a thing

Maybe you just didn't read what you copied and pasted here regarding the word "believe" in the Greek, but there was NOTHING about works, or effort, in the definitions.

So where have you gotten your notion that man must help God in salvation by lifestyle or behavior, etc?

 

[fhansen]

We certainly do know the principle by which God operates His own plan. He tells us in His word. Those who believe are given eternal life and are saved.

So, from that, we know with perfect certainty that all who have believed are saved, have the gift of eternal life, and shall never perish.

Regarding specific names, of course that belongs to God alone.

We know that the elect are, um, elected, but without knowing their names it's a bit short-sighted IMO to say that it comes down to those who've believed-or at least think they’ve believed at some point. Those who've tasted of the heavenly gift (Heb 6), or those who're branches grafted in but later cut off (Rom 11), or those admonished in Scripture to refrain from sin and to be holy, since “without holiness no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12), certainly believed at some point. It would be rather silly for God to make it a one-time choice anyway, don’t you think? As if our continuous choice for Him, our continuous faith and the fruit it should produce, our perseverance and continuous orientation towards and growth in justice or righteousness are meaningless in the over-all salvific scheme of things. God's plan has never been to suddenly ignore evil/injustice in His world, but rather to restore His justice, the right way, the New Covenant way while forgiving the injustices already committed.

God coaxes, without force, man’s will towards rectitude, and then expects man to increasingly own it, born out by his actions such as those mentioned in Matt 25:31-46, performed for “the least of these”. Faith is the first step in obtaining this rectitude, in this justifying as it establishes communion with He who justifies, this communion, itself, being the very basis of justice for man since without it he’s dead, lost, existing in a disordered state. That’s what it means to be justified by faith. Faith, itself, is not some sort of get-out-of-hell-free-card, as if faith is all God wants or expects from man, or as if faith is the equivalent of justice for man. Rather faith is the first gift offered, of many we may need to continuously accept as we work out our salvation together with He who works in us, depending also on the opportunities given: time, knowledge, grace.

 

[Concord1968]

By Grace alone
Through Faith alone
In Christ alone
For the Glory of God alone
As revealed in Scripture alone

Works-righteousness need not apply.....