Please Define Pedophile

[lawtonfogle]

I can feel pity for whatever caused them to be this way, probably abuse of some kind. I cannot go so far as to say that they cannot help it and pat them on the head for it.

Lisa

So do you think they choose to be attracted to kids?

 

[stan1980]

I can feel pity for whatever caused them to be this way,

Thank goodness for that. I think that is all people meant by sympathy.

 

[Lisa0315]

So do you think they choose to be attracted to kids?

hmm...Sort of...at least in some cases...

Sin begets more sin...Remember the 15 year old study I did? At that time, the cause of teen sex offenders had to do with the way all sexuality develops. You may have a tendency, orientation, desire, fantasy, whatever you want to call it...but it becomes cemented in your brain when it is acted upon repeatedly and sexual pleasure takes place.

One of the treatments of sexual deviancy is to reprogram the brain so that when a wrong image (child) stimulates the person sexually, a deterrant is given through one of the senses. It may be a bad smell, taste, etc so that the deviant stops associating that image with pleasure. The opposite, or positive reinforcement is used to help the deviant to start associating sexual pleasure with normal images.

In the young pedophile, it is likely that they associate sex with being a victim. They overcome that by becoming the perp themselves. So, there is an impulse driven by fear and by desire. It is very complex, so no, I cannot say that it is something that they can choose or not choose, but it does not become programmed into the brain unless they CHOOSE to act upon it.

So, there is a bit of choice there and some responsibility there. I do not believe that the former victim should be released from all responsibility and choice, no.

Lisa

 

[stan1980]

Why would anyone consciously choose to be a paedophile?

 

[Lisa0315]

Why would anyone consciously choose to be a paedophile?

We are driven by a lot of things that are not conscious. Many people go through life without examining anything they do as ethical or not ethical. Many people make excuses and say, "I cannot help it". Is it true? Only God and the person knows. All I know is Scripture tells us that no cross is given to us that we cannot bear and that a way out of temptation is always provided.

Lisa

 

[lawtonfogle]

hmm...Sort of...at least in some cases...

Sin begets more sin...Remember the 15 year old study I did? At that time, the cause of teen sex offenders had to do with the way all sexuality develops. You may have a tendency, orientation, desire, fantasy, whatever you want to call it...but it becomes cemented in your brain when it is acted upon repeatedly and sexual pleasure takes place.

One of the treatments of sexual deviancy is to reprogram the brain so that when a wrong image (child) stimulates the person sexually, a deterrant is given through one of the senses. It may be a bad smell, taste, etc so that the deviant stops associating that image with pleasure. The opposite, or positive reinforcement is used to help the deviant to start associating sexual pleasure with normal images.

In the young pedophile, it is likely that they associate sex with being a victim. They overcome that by becoming the perp themselves. So, there is an impulse driven by fear and by desire. It is very complex, so no, I cannot say that it is something that they can choose or not choose, but it does not become programmed into the brain unless they CHOOSE to act upon it.

So, there is a bit of choice there and some responsibility there. I do not believe that the former victim should be released from all responsibility and choice, no.

Lisa

Well, there are no 'young pedophiles'. There maybe be those with more potential, but that doesn't mean they are one already.

Also, do you think it is wrong morally to be sexually attracted to children (and set age limits to when it is ok, like maybe you think once they are 17 it is not wrong). By sexually attracted, I'm not talking any fantasizing or lust, just attraction.

 

[lawtonfogle]

We are driven by a lot of things that are not conscious. Many people go through life without examining anything they do as ethical or not ethical. Many people make excuses and say, "I cannot help it". Is it true? Only God and the person knows. All I know is Scripture tells us that no cross is given to us that we cannot bear and that a way out of temptation is always provided.

Lisa

I know this is off topic, but a thought just hit me. Anyways, doesn't the above mean that it is possible to go without sinning?

 

[Lisa0315]

Well, there are no 'young pedophiles'. There maybe be those with more potential, but that doesn't mean they are one already.

Also, do you think it is wrong morally to be sexually attracted to children (and set age limits to when it is ok, like maybe you think once they are 17 it is not wrong). By sexually attracted, I'm not talking any fantasizing or lust, just attraction.

What are you talking about??? How do you say there are no young pedophiles? If you mean children, okay, I agree. If you mean sexually active teens, then, sorry, but you are wrong.

I think it is morally wrong to be sexually attracted to children, yes. I would define child as pre-teen and younger. I don't know about setting ages and all that.

Lisa

 

[Lisa0315]

I know this is off topic, but a thought just hit me. Anyways, doesn't the above mean that it is possible to go without sinning?

I have wondered the same thing myself. I don't know but it does sound like it. That would be a good Bible study. Want me to start something up in GT?

Lisa

 

[lawtonfogle]

What are you talking about??? How do you say there are no young pedophiles? If you mean children, okay, I agree. If you mean sexually active teens, then, sorry, but you are wrong.

I think it is morally wrong to be sexually attracted to children, yes. I would define child as pre-teen and younger. I don't know about setting ages and all that.

Lisa

I think by definition a 18 year old attracted to a 12 year old isn't a pedophile.

Anyways, by preteen and younger, your ok with it being 13 and older (most people who have your stance set that bar a bit higher).

Also, from a number of commentary on the Bible I have read, it was common place for 12 (which is pre-teen) to be married to older males.

Anyways, two part question. I'll go ahead and admit this can be considered a trick question, but it is one so many fall into.

Do you believe the Bible to be the bases of all morality?

If yes, please use the Bible (and logic, of course) to show that being sexually attracted to what ever bar you set (which right now is 12 and younger) is wrong.

Also another question. When is the younger you think that a child (assuming no abuse or such stuff) can be sexually attracted to someone else (there own age, older, or younger)?

 

[Lisa0315]

Lot of questions, so let me break this down...

I think by definition a 18 year old attracted to a 12 year old isn't a pedophile.

The law would not agree with you. It would be considered statutory rape even if it were consensual. However, I think what you are trying to distinguish is an attraction to someone who happens to be 18 to someone who happens to be 12. If that 18 year old is also attracted to people his own age, and older, then, yeah, that is not pedophila.

Anyways, by preteen and younger, your ok with it being 13 and older (most people who have your stance set that bar a bit higher).

I should have said those who have not yet hit puberty.

Also, from a number of commentary on the Bible I have read, it was common place for 12 (which is pre-teen) to be married to older males.

Custom and society certainly plays a role. While Freud is no longer popular these days, he did have a theory regarding how society plays a role in morality. I cannot remember which of the three it was, Ego, Super Ego, and Id, right? It has been awhile.

So, Mary was probably around 13 or 14, and Joseph was a Middle Aged man. By today's standards that would be immoral. By the standards then, a girl who was menustrating was ready for marriage.

Anyways, two part question. I'll go ahead and admit this can be considered a trick question, but it is one so many fall into.

Do you believe the Bible to be the bases of all morality?

I believe the SOURCE of the Bibe is the basis of all morality, yes.

If yes, please use the Bible (and logic, of course) to show that being sexually attracted to what ever bar you set (which right now is 12 and younger) is wrong.

It is a good point and as I said above, society and culture distinguish the morality of sexual attraction.

Also another question. When is the younger you think that a child (assuming no abuse or such stuff) can be sexually attracted to someone else (there own age, older, or younger)?

Children can be sexually attracted at quite a young age. Pre-schoolers demonstrate sexual attraction towards each other and to adults. Little girls flirt with men and little boys get crushes on women.

Now, all of this is moving the goal posts a bit. Pedophiles are attracted exclusively to children and disregard the rules of society in order to from sexual relationships with children. In the articles I cited, different methods are employed by different types of child predators. Some may seduce the child into greater and greater sexual exercises. Others may enjoy the violence of forcing the child.

One victim that I have talked with said that he felt that he deserved it. It was his cousin. After a long talk, it finally came out that he had felt sexually aroused himself during the attacks and the cousin had used it as "proof" that he wanted it to happen. I explained to this young man that the male body does not always recognize the difference between forced stimulation and consensual. This guy was suicidal over it. I am no counselor. I just talked to him as a friend. I told him to look it up himself and he would find that the male body simply responds to stimulation. Feelings and consent do not have to be involved. I think it helped him make a step towards recovery.

Lisa

 

[lawtonfogle]

Lot of questions, so let me break this down...




The law would not agree with you. It would be considered statutory rape even if it were consensual. However, I think what you are trying to distinguish is an attraction to someone who happens to be 18 to someone who happens to be 12. If that 18 year old is also attracted to people his own age, and older, then, yeah, that is not pedophila.

The law doesn't get a say in if he is a pedophile or not, only if he is a child molester or not (which he would be if convicted).

I should have said those who have not yet hit puberty.

So you put the line at the same place the line for pedophilia is at.

Custom and society certainly plays a role. While Freud is no longer popular these days, he did have a theory regarding how society plays a role in morality. I cannot remember which of the three it was, Ego, Super Ego, and Id, right? It has been awhile.

So, Mary was probably around 13 or 14, and Joseph was a Middle Aged man. By today's standards that would be immoral. By the standards then, a girl who was menustrating was ready for marriage.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear then, as I was asking from an independent of society POV, which pretty much means that as long as there is one society which you can come up with in which you would say it is moral, then you think it is moral.

I believe the SOURCE of the Bibe is the basis of all morality, yes.

Nice catch, the same one I use in fact, though good number of Christians seem to disagree with us on that one.

It is a good point and as I said above, society and culture distinguish the morality of sexual attraction.



Children can be sexually attracted at quite a young age. Pre-schoolers demonstrate sexual attraction towards each other and to adults. Little girls flirt with men and little boys get crushes on women.

Just wanted to see if you knew this, as many I talk to think that no one is sexually attracted until puberty.

Now, all of this is moving the goal posts a bit. Pedophiles are attracted exclusively to children and disregard the rules of society in order to from sexual relationships with children.

Your talking child molesters again.

In the articles I cited, different methods are employed by different types of child predators. Some may seduce the child into greater and greater sexual exercises. Others may enjoy the violence of forcing the child.

One victim that I have talked with said that he felt that he deserved it. It was his cousin. After a long talk, it finally came out that he had felt sexually aroused himself during the attacks and the cousin had used it as "proof" that he wanted it to happen. I explained to this young man that the male body does not always recognize the difference between forced stimulation and consensual. This guy was suicidal over it. I am no counselor. I just talked to him as a friend. I told him to look it up himself and he would find that the male body simply responds to stimulation. Feelings and consent do not have to be involved. I think it helped him make a step towards recovery.

Lisa

 

[Lisa0315]

Are you a pedophile?

 

[lawtonfogle]

Are you a pedophile?

Why do you ask?

While I would love to not go ahead and not say this and see where it goes, for the sake of civility (aka, not starting a rumor) I must go ahead and say that no, I am not

And your the second person to ask me this (I have been keeping a record... well, if you call two people a record).

 

[Lisa0315]

Why do you ask?

While I would love to not go ahead and not say this and see where it goes, for the sake of civility (aka, not starting a rumor) I must go ahead and say that no, I am not

And your the second person to ask me this (I have been keeping a record... well, if you call two people a record).

I didn't really think so, but on a board like this, you never know whom you may be talking with. For all I knew, you were the head of NAMBLA.

I am interested in the subject because of my niece. Others may be interested in it simply because they have an interest in abnormal psychology.

Lisa

 

[lawtonfogle]

I didn't really think so, but on a board like this, you never know whom you may be talking with. For all I knew, you were the head of NAMBLA.

I am interested in the subject because of my niece. Others may be interested in it simply because they have an interest in abnormal psychology.

Lisa

Actually I am getting a psychology B.S. (along side my Com. Sci. B.S.), though my main focus is human factors, I have an interest in both developmental and abnormal.

 

[quatona]

We are driven by a lot of things that are not conscious. Many people go through life without examining anything they do as ethical or not ethical. Many people make excuses and say, "I cannot help it". Is it true? Only God and the person knows. All I know is Scripture tells us that no cross is given to us that we cannot bear and that a way out of temptation is always provided.

..and since we are talking about pedophiles who "bear that cross" and find a way out of this temptation in that they succeed in not molesting children, your point is not only moot, but your attitude towards and judgement of those persons is in strange contradiction to Christian doctrine, according to which we are all sinners and the best we can achieve is to resist the temptation to act upon our sinful desires.

 

[Lisa0315]

..and since we are talking about pedophiles who "bear that cross" and find a way out of this temptation in that they succeed in not molesting children, your point is not only moot, but your attitude towards and judgement of those persons is in strange contradiction to Christian doctrine, according to which we are all sinners and the best we can achieve is to resist the temptation to act upon our sinful desires.

I am not judging anyone. I do happen to have a strong opinion on the subject as my niece was molested.

This whole thread has been an eye opener to be sure.

Lisa

 

[quatona]

I am not judging anyone. I do happen to have a strong opinion on the subject as my niece was molested.

We are not talking about molesters, we are talking about those who are attracted to children.

This whole thread has been an eye opener to be sure.

Which insights did you gain from it?

 

[CCGirl]

BIG difference between a child molester and a paedophile. My EX husband of 17 years was a child molester but not a paedophile. I went through 3 years of intense sexual abuse therapy (even though it was not me molested) to try to understand what happened to him. He was molested by a man at the age of 15 years and of course, in those days, he never said one word.