Plagued by doubts

[asiyreh]

Lol I'm thinking wizard of oz.

Just incase anyone doesn't take the time to research those verses bible2 referred to here they are. I let you decide for yourself whether they specify a good and bad lion. I'm sure you could draw that analogy but it sounds a little crude the way you've phrased it.

Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. Revelation 5:5

Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 1 Peter 5:8

Or here's another one which draws a parallel on the denotation I mentioned, last post.

Son of man, take up a lament concerning Pharaoh king of Egypt and say to him: " 'You are like a lion among the nations... Eze 32:2.

There's many other example but as I say; a lion is a ruler, usually a relatively powerful ruler. It's not good or bad it's just used to symbolise characteristics of power and rulership be they evil or righteous.

 

[jd01]

Christians are followers of both the Old Testament and the New Testament, because both are scripture, inspired by God (2 Timothy 3:15-17).

Do we follow the Exodus laws?

Jesus in no way taught against the Old Testament per se, but confirmed that the Old Testament is true (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 24:44-48). What Jesus contradicted in the Old Testament was the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which, while it remains true (Romans 7:12), it's just no longer in effect for people.

Ummm .... Jesus confirmed the OT including the Exodus Laws? Then he contradicted a bit of it. But it remains true even thought it is not in effect. That is verging on a wacky position, if you don't mind me saying.

Or could it be that Jesus taught us the only Law. Period.

Regarding Old Testament genocide, are you thinking of 1 Samuel 15:3? If so, even babies are sinful (Psalms 58:3, Psalms 51:5, Romans 3:10), because of original sin (Romans 5:19a). And as the Creator of all babies, God has the right to decide what to do with them, even before they are born (Romans 9:11-24). Also, in Deuteronomy 5:17, "kill" meant murder (Matthew 19:18), not capital punishment (Deuteronomy 17:5-7, Romans 13:4).

Right. Yahweh ordering the genocide and slaughter of all beasts of a people who opposed Israel. What would Jesus have done?

Regarding mass rape, what verses are you referring to?

Here's a few, theres lots

Judges 21:10-24
Numbers 31:7-18
Deuteronomy 21:10-14
Deuteronomy 20:10-14

Jesus broke The Law by not stoning the adulteress.

Regarding slavery, the Old Testament forbade the cruel treatment of slaves (Leviticus 25:43, Exodus 21:26-27) or the return of escaped slaves to their masters (Deuteronomy 23:15-16). Similarly, the New Testament commands the right treatment of slaves (Colossians 4:1), and commands slaves to obtain freedom from mortal masters if they are able to (1 Corinthians 7:21). But saved people are to remain the voluntary slaves of Jesus Christ (Romans 1:1, Romans 6:22, Revelation 1:1), who has freed them from slavery to sin (John 8:34-36), and offers them eternal life (Romans 6:22-23).

Ok. So according to Yahweh and Paul slavery is fine as long as you aren't cruel to the humans you own. So technically there is no issue with Jesus having slaves - if he had gone to the slave markets and bought some.

Regards the whole Revelation thing I am with Martin Luther on it.

 

[asiyreh]

Do we follow the Exodus laws?



Ummm .... Jesus confirmed the OT including the Exodus Laws? Then he contradicted a bit of it. But it remains true even thought it is not in effect. That is verging on a wacky position, if you don't mind me saying.

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Col 2:14
​

​

​

This is regarding the old ceremonial laws you're talking about.

Or could it be that Jesus taught us the only Law. Period.

The Law is a teacher that shows you, you are nothing without the grace of Christ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2flw3d5L7Ss

Right. Yahweh ordering the genocide and slaughter of all beasts of a people who opposed Israel. What would Jesus have done?

The Father and Christ are of one will, always have been, always will be. Bringing the salvation plan and it's first step The Law, required military oversight, if you got in the way, you were removed. Thank God for the Law. The reason you live in at least a half decent civilisation is because of it.

Here's a few, theres lots

Judges 21:10-24
Numbers 31:7-18
Deuteronomy 21:10-14
Deuteronomy 20:10-14

Jesus broke The Law by not stoning the adulteress.

Here's some interesting texts, don't jump to conclusions but allow the Holy Spirit to reveal it to you slowly....

Yet, because Moses gave you circumcision (though actually it did not come from Moses, but from the patriarchs), you circumcise a boy on the Sabbath. John 7:22

Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. Mat 19:8

For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. John 1:17​

Ok. So according to Yahweh and Paul slavery is fine as long as you aren't cruel to the humans you own. So technically there is no issue with Jesus having slaves - if he had gone to the slave markets and bought some.

What you understand as a slave, is completely different thing to what a jew would understand. People would often sell themselves into the jewish version for seven years I believe to pay a debt. Don't you think it's a good thing God ordered parameters on how to treat people in all walks of life?

Regards the whole Revelation thing I am with Martin Luther on it.

Amen

total onslaught amazing discoveries - YouTube

 

[Scott-Smith]

Hello everyone. Though I was born a Christian, I have only returned to Christ recently, so that's why I thought I would post here.

My problem is that though I have accepted Christ, I'm still plagued by doubts of the existence of God. I go to atheist websites and read their arguments, and their arguments do make sense to me - I can't deny that. But I WANT to believe in God because it makes me happy to think that there is a God. I don't know what to do. There is also the problem that my father is an atheist, and doesn't like the idea that I'm becoming religious.

Is there any good apolegetic websites anyone could direct me to? I just really need guidance .

Prayers sent. I have read this for years and it is good: Evidence for God from Science

 

[Bible2]

jd01 said in post 95:

Do we follow the Exodus laws?

Yes, but in newness of the spirit, not in the oldness of the letter (Rom. 7:6), by loving others (Gal. 5:14, Rom. 13:8-10), by doing to others as we would have others do to us (Mt. 7:12).

jd01 said in post 95:

Jesus confirmed the OT including the Exodus Laws?

Yes, he confirmed the spirit of them (Matthew 7:12).

jd01 said in post 95:

Then he contradicted a bit of it.

Yes, as the Christ (Matthew 5:17, Luke 24:44-46), the mediator of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-8), Jesus had the divine authority to contradict the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments and replace them with his own, even better, New Covenant commandments (Matthew 5:38-44, Matthew 19:7-9, John 8:5-7), such as those he gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29) and in the epistles of Paul the apostle (1 Corinthians 14:37; 1 Thessalonians 4:2). And as the Christ, Jesus had the divine authority to allow his disciples to break the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (Matthew 12:1-8).

jd01 said in post 95:

Yahweh ordering the genocide and slaughter of all beasts of a people who opposed Israel. What would Jesus have done?

Jesus will do the same thing at his second coming (Zechariah 14). For Jesus is YHWH, who will set his feet on the Mount of Olives at his return (Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12). Jesus is YHWH the Holy One, from everlasting (Habakkuk 1:12a, Acts 3:14, Micah 5:2c). Jesus is YHWH the only Savior (Isaiah 43:11, Titus 2:13), YHWH the good shepherd (Psalms 23:1, John 10:11, Mark 10:18), YHWH who is the first and the last (Isaiah 44:6, Revelation 2:8), YHWH the great I AM (Exodus 3:14, John 8:58), the great God (Titus 2:13), the mighty God (Isaiah 9:6), one God with God the Father (John 10:30, John 20:28, John 1:1,14, Matthew 1:23), equal in divinity with God the Father (Philippians 2:6).

Just as the Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19) is the three distinct, coexisting Persons (Mark 1:9-11) of God the Father (Galatians 1:3), God the Son (Hebrews 1:8), and God the Holy Spirit (compare Mark 13:11 and Matthew 10:19-20; Acts 5:3-4), so the Trinity is YHWH the Father, YHWH the Son, and YHWH the Holy Spirit. For YHWH is the only God (Isaiah 45:5-6). He has always been and forever will be the only God (Isaiah 43:10b).

jd01 said in post 95:

Judges 21:10-24

Judges 21:21-23 refers to marriage.

jd01 said in post 95:

Numbers 31:7-18

The Israelite men could have waited until the virgins grew up and then married them (compare Deuteronomy 21:11-14).

jd01 said in post 95:

Deuteronomy 21:10-14

That refers to marriage.

jd01 said in post 95:

Deuteronomy 20:10-14

Nothing about rape there.

jd01 said in post 95:

Jesus broke The Law by not stoning the adulteress.

That's right, but only the letter of it, not the spirit of it.

jd01 said in post 95:

So according to Yahweh and Paul slavery is fine as long as you aren't cruel to the humans you own.

That's right.

jd01 said in post 95:

So technically there is no issue with Jesus having slaves - if he had gone to the slave markets and bought some.

That's right.

Also, all Christians are to become the voluntary slaves of Jesus (Romans 1:1, Romans 6:22, Revelation 1:1), who has freed them from slavery to sin (John 8:34-36), and offers them eternal life (Romans 6:22-23).

 

[asiyreh]

Bible2 I hate to be contradicting you. I think you're a very excellent theologian and servant of Christ and a true brother for me, but you have a habit of seeing everything in this black and white format. You tend to articulate this thinking when you write, and leaves your statements a little open to misinterpretation though I know that's not how you intended them.

Jd study the passages that bibles posted here; for they, that is the passages themselves, have the answers you require. I'd also advise you repost this question in the general theology section as, it's an extremely long and complex issue.

It will probably take you years to fully master it. But when you are finished you should emerge in the knowledge, that Christ never once contradicted the intention of the father in heaven. Was completely free from sin (a breach of the Law of God) and went to that cross as a perfect Lamb without spot or blemish.

If not we might as well close this whole forum go out into the world and as satans law commands; do whatever it is that we feel.

Regarding the Sabbath thing, now I know a little about this as I'm actually a Sabbath keeper. God intended the Sabbath day as a REST protected by his divine Law.

People will often say to me, you're a legalist you're trying to work your way into heaven, to which I reply. Brother the Sabbath isn't, nor ever was, a Work, it's a rest.

 

[Bible2]

asiyreh said in post 99:

Christ never once contradicted the intention of the father in heaven.

Amen (John 12:49). It hasn't been said that he did.

asiyreh said in post 99:

Was completely free from sin (a breach of the Law of God) and went to that cross as a perfect Lamb without spot or blemish.

Amen (Hebrews 4:15b; 1 Peter 1:19). It hasn't been said that he wasn't.

asiyreh said in post 99:

God intended the Sabbath day as a REST protected by his divine Law.

Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, don't need to keep the sabbath of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, for even the letter of the ten commandments written and engraven in stones (2 Cor. 3:7, Deut. 4:13) was part of the abolished Old Covenant Mosaic law's ministration of death (2 Cor. 3:6-7, Num. 15:32-36) which has been replaced by the New Covenant (Jer. 31:31-34) ministration of the spirit (2 Cor. 3:6-18), in which believers are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and keep the spirit (Rom. 7:6) of all the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments by loving others (Rom. 13:8-10). Saying that believers have to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath is just as wrong as, for example, saying that believers have to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law circumcision (Acts 15:1-11). If believers keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath thinking they have to, they are as fallen from grace (Gal. 5:4) as believers who keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law circumcision thinking they have to (Gal. 5:2). They have become debtors to perform the letter of the entire Old Covenant Mosaic law (Gal. 5:3). They have placed themselves under its curse (Gal. 3:10).

So no believer should ever desire to go back into bondage under the letter of any part of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Gal. 4:21 to 5:8). Believers need to keep the sabbath only in spirit, not in the letter (Rom. 7:6). Believers must never judge other believers for not keeping the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath (Col. 2:16), which letter was abolished as a requirement on the New Covenant Cross of Jesus, along with all the rest of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Col. 2:14-17, Eph. 2:15-16, Rom. 7:6, Heb. 7:18-19, Heb. 10:9b, Heb. 10:1-23, Mt. 26:28), for its letter is merely a shadow; now it all comes down to Jesus himself (Col. 2:17). Jesus' New Covenant sabbath rest (Mt. 11:28-30), which all believers enter into by faith (Heb. 4:3-4), exceeds in righteousness (cf. Mt. 5:20) the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath. For under the New Covenant sabbath, Christians must cease from their own works every day of the week (Heb. 4:3,10, Lk. 9:23). And they can esteem every day of the week (Rom. 14:5).

asiyreh said in post 99:

People will often say to me, you're a legalist you're trying to work your way into heaven . . .

Regarding the idea of "legalism" generally, grace sets believers free from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Rom. 6:14b, Jn. 1:17), but not from Jesus' New Covenant law (Gal. 6:2, Jn. 15:10, 1 Cor. 9:21, Jer. 31:31-34, Mt. 26:28), the commandments of which (Jn. 14:15) are those he gave, for example, in the Sermon on the Mount (Mt. 5:19-7:29) and in Paul's epistles (1 Cor. 14:37). For while believers are initially saved by grace by faith alone (Eph. 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Rom. 4:1-5), and don't have to obey the letter of the commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in order to obtain ultimate salvation (Gal. 2:16), they do have to obey Jesus' New Covenant commandments in order to obtain ultimate salvation (Heb. 5:9, Mt. 7:21, Rom. 2:6-8).

It's by believers obeying Jesus' New Covenant commandments, whether obeying them currently (1 Jn. 3:24) or during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Rev. 14:12-13, Rev. 14 12:17b), that believers can be sure they're truly loving him (Jn. 14:21-24, 1 Jn. 5:3) and that they're remaining in his love (Jn. 15:10, Jn. 14:21b,23b, Jude 1:21). Christians must fear ultimately losing their salvation, ultimately being cut off the same as unbelievers, if they don't continue in his goodness (Rom. 11:20-22, Lk. 12:45-46).

 

[jd01]

Yes, but in newness of the spirit, not in the oldness of the letter (Rom. 7:6), by loving others (Gal. 5:14, Rom. 13:8-10), by doing to others as we would have others do to us (Mt. 7:12).

Yes, he confirmed the spirit of them (Matthew 7:12).

Yes, as the Christ (Matthew 5:17, Luke 24:44-46), the mediator of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-8), Jesus had the divine authority to contradict the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments and replace them with his own, even better, New Covenant commandments (Matthew 5:38-44, Matthew 19:7-9, John 8:5-7), such as those he gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29) and in the epistles of Paul the apostle (1 Corinthians 14:37; 1 Thessalonians 4:2). And as the Christ, Jesus had the divine authority to allow his disciples to break the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (Matthew 12:1-8).

Jesus will do the same thing at his second coming (Zechariah 14). For Jesus is YHWH, who will set his feet on the Mount of Olives at his return (Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12). Jesus is YHWH the Holy One, from everlasting (Habakkuk 1:12a, Acts 3:14, Micah 5:2c). Jesus is YHWH the only Savior (Isaiah 43:11, Titus 2:13), YHWH the good shepherd (Psalms 23:1, John 10:11, Mark 10:18), YHWH who is the first and the last (Isaiah 44:6, Revelation 2:8), YHWH the great I AM (Exodus 3:14, John 8:58), the great God (Titus 2:13), the mighty God (Isaiah 9:6), one God with God the Father (John 10:30, John 20:28, John 1:1,14, Matthew 1:23), equal in divinity with God the Father (Philippians 2:6).

Just as the Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19) is the three distinct, coexisting Persons (Mark 1:9-11) of God the Father (Galatians 1:3), God the Son (Hebrews 1:8), and God the Holy Spirit (compare Mark 13:11 and Matthew 10:19-20; Acts 5:3-4), so the Trinity is YHWH the Father, YHWH the Son, and YHWH the Holy Spirit. For YHWH is the only God (Isaiah 45:5-6). He has always been and forever will be the only God (Isaiah 43:10b).

Ok. Lets get this straight.

This is what the Bible says

1. The OLD Law was in force both in the letter and spirit at some point. Under it we kill lots of people for various reasons in a variety of ways, dashing babies against rocks, ripping apart pregnant women, stoning kids for being disrespectful, genocide, mass murder, mutilation, forced marriages, rape etc etc This was all moral - the right thing to do to please God.

2. Then Jesus says 'Hang on a minute' You must act thus. He contradicts the Old Law and gives us a radically different New Law. God changed His Mind? So while the letter of the Old Law is now defunct, the spirit of it is somehow still ok (this seems nonsensical). So if my kid disrespects me its ok for the spirit of the Old Law to manifest as a desire to have him stoned by the people living my sud-division, I just can't carry it out?

3. Slavery is ok (as long as you are nice to them).

4. The Second Coming of Jesus will involve genocide.

I just want to make sure I understand.

Judges 21:21-23 refers to marriage.
That refers to marriage.

Actually it refers to forced marriage with an option to dispose of the women after a month.

The Israelite men could have waited until the virgins grew up and then married them (compare Deuteronomy 21:11-14).

But it does not say that. It also shows how it is ok to treat females as property.

 

[jd01]

Regards the whole Revelation thing I am with Martin Luther on it.

Amen

This is what Martin Luther said about Revelation in his German Bible

"About this book of the Revelation of John…I miss more than one thing in this book, and it makes me consider it to be neither apostolic nor prophetic…I can in no way detect that the Holy Spirit produced it. Moreover he seems to me to be going much too far when he commends his own book so highly-indeed, more than any of the other sacred books do, though they are much more important-and threatens that if anyone takes away anything from it, God will take away from him, etc. Again, they are supposed to be blessed who keep what is written in this book; and yet no one knows what that is, to say nothing of keeping it. This is just the same as if we did not have the book at all. And there are many far better books available for us to keep…My spirit cannot accommodate itself to this book. For me this is reason enough not to think highly of it: Christ is neither taught nor known in it” (Luther, M. Preface to the Revelation of St. John, 1522).

 

[asiyreh]

Hmm... Luther thought the RCC was anti Christ, wonder how he came to that conclusion, assumed it was revelation, must have a deeper look into it.

Now Jd regarding your other post, first of all before we begin, calm yourself, stop running round like something possessed, shouting lo here and lo there, getting yourself all stressed out. Breathe my friend...

For one thing I've asked you to repost this question in the general theological section. Our most studied scholars frequent this section and you will find all you answers there.

I'll give you a little start but you need to breathe bro. There's nothing logical or rational you can understand while you in this heightened state of emotion. Breathe... ok??? now let's proceed...

First of all what did Jesus say, if anyone harms so much as a hair of these little ones it is better for him to tie a bolder round his neck and launch himself into the sea.

The psalms do not teach the Christian doctrine, in the same way that revelation is not supposed to be read literally but rather symbolically. You know David married something in the region of 1000 women and details some fairly raunchy behavior that went on, in the psalms. I don't therefore assume to myself, ha it's ok for me to have 1000 wifes(can you imagine, sounds fun must have been torture) and get down and dirty.

Here's a question to ask yourself. You think it's evil to kill babies right? Why?
What if I took over the world and said killing babies was good and everyone agreed with me, could you still come into that period of time point look at the practice and say, hey that's evil?

Yes of course and the reason why is because we don't decide what is right and wrong rather we discover it. The reason why we do this is because our moral fibre perceives something beyond us, comes from something greater than ourselves, and that something is God.

Consider the slavery issue that you keep bringing up. Now in Western culture we've eliminated slavery (debateable) but without being symantec. We look back on this and think, yes our culture definitely improved there.
Improved??? Hang on, Where is this measuring stick, from which we can gage society improved at that point? Where does it exist?

We as human being realise that there exists beyond us a realm of objective moral standards and duties and that standard is God, revealed in the person of Jesus Christ.

Most of the kings in the Old testament were terrible leaders, they are not meant to show us how to behave but rather the opposite is the case. Usually they met with pretty grizzy ends and or where spiritually tortured throughout their lives. This serves as a lesson, not on how we are to behave but rather how not.

That psalmist writing about the babies is probably crying his eyes out writing that verse probably after having actually watched the edomites really smash babies heads on rocks.
Children maybe that he knew and loved and is crying out from his very soul for God to repay the evil doers in kind. This was a very Jewish mind set, that God would repay the evildoers every cent of the crimes they had instituted upon the Jewish people.

In a way the psalmist was right, someday those people who did that crime will stand in front of God and he will repay.

 

[asiyreh]

Regards the whole Revelation thing I am with Martin Luther on it.
This is what Martin Luther said about Revelation in his German Bible

"About this book of the Revelation of John…I miss more than one thing in this book, and it makes me consider it to be neither apostolic nor prophetic…I can in no way detect that the Holy Spirit produced it. Moreover he seems to me to be going much too far when he commends his own book so highly-indeed, more than any of the other sacred books do, though they are much more important-and threatens that if anyone takes away anything from it, God will take away from him, etc. Again, they are supposed to be blessed who keep what is written in this book; and yet no one knows what that is, to say nothing of keeping it. This is just the same as if we did not have the book at all. And there are many far better books available for us to keep…My spirit cannot accommodate itself to this book. For me this is reason enough not to think highly of it: Christ is neither taught nor known in it” (Luther, M. Preface to the Revelation of St. John, 1522).

Yeh Luther retracted this view in his later years. Think he wanted to hack James out of the bible at one point as well as it seemed to conflict with his doctrine of justification. I'll take a close look into it see what I can come up with. Definitely interesting however.

 

[Bible2]

jd01 said in post 101:

God changed His Mind?

He changed his covenant, just as he said he would (Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 12:24). God set up the Mosaic Old Covenant only temporarily because of sins, long after he had set up the original promise of the Abrahamic Covenant and long before he brought that promise to fulfillment in Jesus' New Covenant (Galatians 3:16-29, Matthew 26:28).

jd01 said in post 101:

So while the letter of the Old Law is now defunct, the spirit of it is somehow still ok (this seems nonsensical).

The spirit of it is still okay (Romans 7:6) because the spirit of it is loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), doing to others as we would have others do to us (Matthew 7:12).

jd01 said in post 101:

The Second Coming of Jesus will involve genocide.

It will involve Jesus slaying much of the unsaved world (Luke 12:49; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, Revelation 19:19-21).

*******

jd01 quoted Martin Luther about Revelation in post 102:

Again, they are supposed to be blessed who keep what is written in this book; and yet no one knows what that is, to say nothing of keeping it.

What did he mean by "no one knows what that is", that no one can understand Revelation? If so, that isn't the case, for Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it is unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it should not be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it is written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (for example, Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (for example, Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (for example, Daniel 7:4-7,17). Just as Jesus' second coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Revelation 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.

jd01 quoted Martin Luther about Revelation in post 102:

Christ is neither taught nor known in it

The entire book of Revelation is from Christ to the church (Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16). And Christ is taught and known throughout the book. For Revelation 1 is about Christ's appearance and speaking to John the apostle while John was on Patmos. And Revelation chapters 2-3 are letters which Christ spoke directly to seven churches. And Revelation 5 is about Christ as the Lamb (compare John 1:36, Acts 8:32; 1 Peter 1:19), now in heaven. And Revelation 6 is about how Christ will unseal the seven seals of the tribulation. And Revelation 7:9-17 is about Christ comforting the souls of dead believers in heaven. And Revelation 11:8 refers to Christ as our Lord. And Revelation 11:15 refers to Christ in our future taking legal possession of all the kingdoms of the world away from the Antichrist. And Revelation 12:10 mentions the power of Christ. And Revelation 12:11 refers to martyrs overcoming Satan by the blood of Christ. And Revelation 12:17 refers to Christians having the testimony of Christ (Revelation 12:17). And Revelation 13:8 mentions Christ. And Revelation 14:1 refers to Christ standing on the heavenly Mount Zion (compare Hebrews 12:22). And Revelation 14:4 refers to how the 144,000 will be Christ's followers (Revelation 14:4).

And Revelation 14:10 refers to those in hell being tormented in the presence of Christ. And Revelation 14:12-13 refers to Christians keeping the faith of Christ even unto martyrdom. And Revelation 14:14-16 refers to Christ reaping their souls into heaven. And Revelation 15:3 refers to the song of Christ. And Revelation 16:15 quotes something Christ says. And Revelation 17:6 refers to those martyred for Christ. And Revelation 17:14 refers to Christ's future victory over the powers of the unsaved world, as Lord of lords, and King of kings. And Revelation 19:7 refers to Christ's future marriage to the church. And Revelation 19:9 refers to the marriage supper of Christ. And Revelation 19:10 refers to those who have the testimony of Christ, and says that the testimony of Christ is the spirit of prophecy. And Revelation 19:11-21 describes Christ's second coming. And Revelation 20:4-6 refers to Christ's future, millennial reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church. And Revelation 20:11-15 refers to when Christ will resurrect and judge (compare John 5:22,28,29) all unsaved people of all times. And Revelation 21:9 refers to how New Jerusalem pictures Christ's bride, the church. And Revelation 21:14 mentions Christ's apostles.

And Revelation 21:22 refers to Christ himself (and the Father) as the temple of New Jerusalem. And Revelation 21:23 refers to Christ being the light of New Jerusalem. And Revelation 21:27 refers to Christ's book of life. And Revelation 22:1,3 refers to Christ's (and the Father's) throne. And Revelation 22:3 refers to Christ's (and the Father's) servants. And Revelation 22:7,12,13,16,20a quotes Christ. And Revelation 22:17,20b refers to the church calling for Christ's second coming. And Revelation 22:21 closes the book with "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen", just as the book had opened with "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" (Revelation 1:1). So it doesn't seem possible that anyone could say that Christ is neither taught nor known in the book of Revelation.

 

[Metal Minister]

MOD HAT ON

This thread has undergone a small clean up! Carry on!
MOD HAT OFF

 

[Iosias]

I'm still plagued by doubts of the existence of God.

Try

The Idolatry of God by Peter Rollins - YouTube