Physics and the Immortality of the Soul

[mzungu]

 

[AV1611VET]

W17H 0U7 5/8 0N3 W0RD.

 

[mzungu]

W17H 0U7 5/8 0N3 W0RD.

Δεν είχα την παραμικρή αμφιβολία ότι έχεις δυνατό μυαλό.

 

[AV1611VET]

Δεν είχα την παραμικρή αμφιβολία ότι έχεις δυνατό μυαλό.

... Σας ευχαριστούμε!

 

[Non sequitur]

I would highly question your use of the word "many" perhaps you would like to present your scientific evidence that you hold in high regard.

Not that anecdotal evidence counts, but I'm sure you could find some here.

 

[Guy1]

I would highly question your use of the word "many" perhaps you would like to present your scientific evidence that you hold in high regard.

It's funny because you're asking for the weakest form of evidence in a scientific context. I know of none. But even if I did- subjective reports from a million people wouldn't make a difference because they prove nothing.

 

[mkatzwork]

No, you simply ASSUMED that all on your own.
No, it's simply silly to you.

You asked what the weight of a graviton was. If you don't see how that is a silly question, then you understand neither the physical concept of "weight" nor the postulated graviton. Nobody has said it must exist, the mathematics simply works very well with it - well enough for it to be worth looking for, since there are things that we HAVE observed that also fit into this model. There's no religion or myth here, just an idea that fits rather well at certain energy levels.

The point I've been trying to make is that mathematical models and such are not 'reality'. They are simply models that may or may not be valid. There's really no valid connection between inflation and a flat universe for instance. It's mathematically MUCH more likely that the universe would be "flat" without inflation, 10 to the 100th power as I recall!

Suggested by Penrose, indeed.

Once again you rely on mathematics, whilst disdaining it at other times. You do realize Penrose worked on a lot of the mathematics that suggests gravitons do indeed exist? The point still stands - you cherry pick bits of mathematical work "Photons have no mass" whilst claiming that other mathematical ideas such as gravitons and string theory are 'religions' or 'mythology'. Your understanding of these things is considerably more superficial than you think.

 

[Michael]

You asked what the weight of a graviton was. If you don't see how that is a silly question, then you understand neither the physical concept of "weight" nor the postulated graviton.

Apparently you missed my point ENTIRELY. Someone (can't recall off the top of my head and I'm too lazy to look at the moment) asked how much a "soul weighted". My point in asking how much a graviton weighed was to point out that some theoretical particles do not HAVE a proposed weight. I think I mentioned the photon as well. You're the one that went all ballistic.

Nobody has said it must exist, the mathematics simply works very well with it - well enough for it to be worth looking for, since there are things that we HAVE observed that also fit into this model. There's no religion or myth here, just an idea that fits rather well at certain energy levels.

Likewise nobody says soul MUST exist, the concept simply jives with NDE's and even some reported past life memories. Whatever the field might be made of, it need not have any rest mass as we understand it, anymore than a photon has rest mass. Rest mass isn't even a requirement for something to be "real"!

Once again you rely on mathematics, whilst disdaining it at other times. You do realize Penrose worked on a lot of the mathematics that suggests gravitons do indeed exist? The point still stands - you cherry pick bits of mathematical work "Photons have no mass" whilst claiming that other mathematical ideas such as gravitons and string theory are 'religions' or 'mythology'. Your understanding of these things is considerably more superficial than you think.

Why wouldn't I rely on math sometimes and reject some math outright? I reject numerology too. Don't you? Mathematical formulas *ALONE*, devoid of empirical support have little no value in determining 'truth'. Numerology and astrology gain no instant value or credibility based upon their reliance upon a few math formulas.

 

[Michael]

Nope, not one mention of "soul", "proof of soul" and now neither "atheist" or "God". This is at least your 2nd time saying things happened in the study that didn't. Why don't you just make up your own? That's essentially what you've been doing so far...

I suppose I sorta deserved that. You're right I didn't go back and read the Lancet study again before putting my foot in my mouth. It does however mention "communication with light" and "out of body experiences" as two of the experiences that many participants reported, both of which occurred at around 23-24 percent of the time apparently.

The out of body reports do in fact support a concept of 'soul' beyond physical form (assuming they're accurate of course), and the communication with light aspect is common. While the Lancet study doesn't mention God, *MANY* NDE reports include such a reference.

Before you backpedal or sidestep, can you explain why you keep saying things are there, that are not? Especially if you provided the link?

I didn't reread it, and the last time I did was probably several years ago. I won't make any other lame excuses and I have no reason to backpeddle. Many NDE accounts include reports of meeting someone they call God, even if the Lancet study doesn't mention anything more than 'communication with light'.

All I am saying is the are very accepting of mumbo-jumbo. It's not conclusive, locked-down or anything. Just an understanding of their "science" and what they accept as "real".

IMO your attempt to smear Russian really isn't helping your case.

"They said there was an experimental treatment called therapeutic hypothermia that might improve his chances of recovery."

Go science?

My point was that hypothermia could in fact allow someone to be dead quite some time (30min-hours+?) and still not necessarily experience a great deal of cell damage or (brain) cell death.

 

[Michael]

And many people have experienced what they call "His Noodly Appendage" during times of great stress. Your point?

Really? Can you site a few such accounts for me? I'm sure I can round up some NDE accounts on the internet by former atheists that claimed to meet a being they believed to be "God".

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/judaism02.html

You do realize they induced a state of hypothermia to slow the consumption of oxygen thus reducing the chance death and the severity of the brain damage, right?

Ya, that was my point. I guess I'm going to have to spend more time being a bit more verbose. It seems when I "assume" anything around here, or cut any corners in terms of my use of terms, some folks go ballistic and attempt to build a federal case over it.

 

[Guy1]

Really? Can you site a few such accounts for me? I'm sure I can round up some NDE accounts on the internet by former atheists that claimed to meet a being they believed to be "God".

That was a rhetorical statement. It doesn't matter how many stories of X person meeting X figure upon near death you round up; it'll never prove anything more than how common such a thing is.

Ya, that was my point. I guess I'm going to have to spend more time being a bit more verbose. It seems when I "assume" anything around here, or cut any corners in terms of my use of terms, some folks go ballistic and attempt to build a federal case over it.

It helps when you express your thoughts and opinions clearly, rather than assume others are on the same page.

 

[Non sequitur]

I suppose I sorta deserved that. You're right I didn't go back and read the Lancet study again before putting my foot in my mouth. It does however mention "communication with light" and "out of body experiences" as two of the experiences that many participants reported, both of which occurred at around 23-24 percent of the time apparently.

The out of body reports do in fact support a concept of 'soul' beyond physical form (assuming they're accurate of course), and the communication with light aspect is common. While the Lancet study doesn't mention God, *MANY* NDE reports include such a reference.

I didn't reread it, and the last time I did was probably several years ago. I won't make any other lame excuses and I have no reason to backpeddle. Many NDE accounts include reports of meeting someone they call God, even if the Lancet study doesn't mention anything more than 'communication with light'.

The light in the tunnel effect is experienced in a high-G environment. Also, I would think the brain starting a process of shutting down or not receiving what it needs to normally function (call it "standard operating conditions) would result in many number of things. This seems to be what one would expect.

(It should be noted that drugs, ketamine, can yield these same results.)

Btw, I thank you for your honestly and sincerity, in regards to the study

IMO your attempt to smear Russian really isn't helping your case.

I'm just saying (have you looked at what they do) they appear to accept and believe some wacky s-word. That makes me question them "interpreting" and their findings things

My point was that hypothermia could in fact allow someone to be dead quite some time (30min-hours+?) and still not necessarily experience a great deal of cell damage or (brain) cell death.

Awesome. (I forgot where that was going...)

 

[Michael]

The light in the tunnel effect is experienced in a high-G environment.

That process could simply trigger the same soul/body disconnect for all I know.

Also, I would think the brain starting a process of shutting down or not receiving what it needs to normally function (call it "standard operating conditions) would result in many number of things. This seems to be what one would expect.

The point that is "intriguing" from my perspective is that the experiences aren't actually random. The categories of experiences, and the statistical frequencies that are cited in that Lancet study would suggest that the experience follow "common patterns". Why? If the neurons are simply firing their last few electrons randomly throughout the brain, why all the similarities of experiences?

(It should be noted that drugs, ketamine, can yield these same results.)

Again, I would simply assume that ketamine and potentially many other drugs and EM field effects might act as a trigger to separate soul from physical form. There could be any number of physical and chemical ways to achieve such a disconnect.

Btw, I thank you for your honestly and sincerity, in regards to the study

No problem. We're all human. I'm certainly capable of making mistakes and I do. All I can do is admit it and move on.

I'm just saying (have you looked at what they do) they appear to accept and believe some wacky s-word. That makes me question them "interpreting" and their findings things

I see.

Awesome. (I forgot where that was going...)

The only place I was trying to take things is to point at that the length of time of "clinical death" could potentially vary greatly from one individual to the next depending on the circumstances of their death. Admittedly, being clinically dead for "days" and then being brought back to life sounds pretty "far fetched", even from my personal perspective, but I can't claim I'm absolutely CERTAIN that it's impossible.

 

[Michael]

That was a rhetorical statement. It doesn't matter how many stories of X person meeting X figure upon near death you round up; it'll never prove anything more than how common such a thing is.

From my perspective, that kind of attitude doesn't really help us to explain why the NDE's tend to follow similar patterns, include similar events (life review), or any of the more "interesting' things about that Lancet study.

It helps when you express your thoughts and opinions clearly, rather than assume others are on the same page.

I'm noticing that. The response I got from 'What's is the mass of a graviton" question was enough to convince me that I need to be a bit more clear about the points I'm trying to make. Some days I'm responding between tech calls at work. That can get hectic and admittedly I can get pretty sloppy at times.

 

[Illuminaughty]

Dr John Lilly did some fascinating work with LSD, ketamine and isolation tanks. What I wouldn't give to have been part of those experiments. The movie "altered states" was based loosely on his research. He claimed to have come in contact with non human intelligences through the method he pioneered.

John Lilly (1915 - 2001) : ketamine researcher

 

[mzungu]

... Σας ευχαριστούμε!

 

[mzungu]

What most creationists fail to realise is that of perspective. They expect and therefore they see or assume something to be true. They may even actually see something but interpret it to suit their needs and desires. This is what Science tries to avoid:

WHICH WAY IS HE FACING?

 

[mzungu]

This is what science is all about:

 

[AV1611VET]

What most creationists fail to realise is that of perspective.

Perspective doesn't get in the way of how I view the moon and the stars, and how they came to be.

They expect and therefore they see or assume something to be true.

Expect?

Where does the Bible come in here?

They may even actually see something but interpret it to suit their needs and desires.

I really don't see what you're talking about.

See what? the Bible or the moon?

Are you talking about creationists who see things in the Bible, or see things through telescopes & microscopes?

This is what Science tries to avoid:

They can't avoid it.

They have six different perspectives, just on the moon.

So much for avoidance.

WHICH WAY IS HE FACING?

Who cares?

 

[AV1611VET]

This is what science is all about:

This is what salvation is all about:

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.