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Physics and the Immortality of the Soul

Michael

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Bzzzzzz... you went off the rails there. When you were in the transcendental or metaphysical realm you were sort of doing ok, but now you're absolutely out. Because if it has physical substance, it should have weight,

What is the weight of a single graviton? How about one inflation thingamabob? A single piece of dark matter?

deriving from the force of gravity acting on its mass and density.

Mass? Density? Did I say anything about mass or density? Photons have no mass. Are they "real"?

It therefore cannot be seen to pervade the body; unless you'd like to claim its somehow similar to a neutrino, in which case you're citing the possibility of physical particles that could exist but have never been seen, which is....oh yes, exactly what you're deriding scientists for doing with dark matter, gravitons, and the Higgs boson.

I didn't say anything about it not being able to be seen. I didn't assign it any "dark" properties, or any mass, or anything of the sort. If however you're going to open your mind to the possibility of "unseen stuff" (in the lab), soul is just ANOTHER example of ANOTHER kind of "particle" that might show up one day in the lab, along with gravitons, dark energy, inflation, a Higgs Bosons, etc. You certainly can't preclude the possibility, nor can you discount the possibility based upon "scientific principles'. Empirical support is OPTIONAL in science.
 
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mkatzwork

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One of the more interesting points in that Lancet study was the follow up interviews. There were significant behavioral and ideological changes as a result of these experiences even YEARS later. You're right of course, they don't necessarily have to be "true", but the effect on the individual is tangible.

That's nice. So what?

I'm not complaining that you WANT verification, I'm complaining because you're writing off all testimony you disagree with with nothing more than a handwave.

It's anecdotal. It's lovely, but it is incredibly weak. I don't dismiss it, I'm just not willing to accept it as strong evidence, and neither is science.

Why would it "change" anything? More than 85% of the planet already believes in a "soul".

You don't think proof beyond reasonable doubt of the existence of the soul, and therefore the potential of an afterlife, would change the planet? Really??? I think people have fuzzy ideas about it, and most people would like there to be such a thing as a soul, because it feels nice and cuddly, and you might get to talk to Grandma again or whatever....but a scientific certainty beyond reasonable doubt - it'd completely alter the planet. Irrevocably. It'd be completely churlish to think otherwise.

You keep making claims about their testimony being "untestable'. That's nonsense. Police investigate testimony all the time, and verify it or falsify it too.

Yes they do. The fact that they can and do falsify it routinely shows it to be of limited value and often motivated by the personal desires of the person giving it. Especially when the claim is extraordinary - then the testimony is treated with vastly greater skepticism. Testimony that is second hand is called hearsay and is dismissed. We can and do every day rationally dismiss claims based on testimony if the claim is implausible - or do you buy the product of every infomercial you see?
 
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Michael

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That's nice. So what?

So regardless what you and I might think, THEY certainly made significant changes in their beliefs and lifestyles as a result of these experiences. You and I weren't there, we're just guessing.

It's anecdotal. It's lovely, but it is incredibly weak. I don't dismiss it, I'm just not willing to accept it as strong evidence, and neither is science.
You don't speak for "science". That Lancet study is published in a "scientific" publication.

You don't think proof beyond reasonable doubt of the existence of the soul, and therefore the potential of an afterlife, would change the planet? Really???
Not for me personally. Maybe for you and small segment of the population that consider themselves to be an 'atheist'. Buddhists however believe in a soul, but not God, so even that's not a certainty.

I think people have fuzzy ideas about it, and most people would like there to be such a thing as a soul, because it feels nice and cuddly, and you might get to talk to Grandma again or whatever....but a scientific certainty beyond reasonable doubt - it'd completely alter the planet. Irrevocably. It'd be completely churlish to think otherwise.
The problem with that logic as I see it is that IMO there is OVERWHELMING scientific evidence to support evolutionary theory, yet almost half of this nation rejects the concept. People don't even always 'trust' science to give it's "okey dokey" to an idea in the first place.

Yes they do. The fact that they can and do falsify it routinely shows it to be of limited value and often motivated by the personal desires of the person giving it. Especially when the claim is extraordinary - then the testimony is treated with vastly greater skepticism. Testimony that is second hand is called hearsay and is dismissed. We can and do every day rationally dismiss claims based on testimony if the claim is implausible - or do you buy the product of every infomercial you see?
But who decides what is 'plausible" and what isn't, you or me?
 
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mkatzwork

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What is the weight of a single graviton?

That's a silly question if you knew about what a graviton is posited to be. You betray your own ignorance.

How about one inflation thingamabob?

There is no inflation "particle" in that particular cosmological model....ditto the above. Silly and disrespectful question that does your otherwise sensible discourse a disservice.


A single piece of dark matter?

If it exists, that's a very good question - well it would be, if you were asking what the mass of a piece of dark matter is, and if you better defined the word 'piece' which is a meaningless phrase in physics.


Mass? Density? Did I say anything about mass or density? Photons have no mass. Are they "real"?

I think you're wandering into territory I'm pretty sure I understand considerably better than you, and your beliefs are so full of internal contradictions it's stunning.

Photons have momentum (as per E2 = m2c4 + p2c2) - but from experimental data we only know the upper limit for their mass if they had it, and it's beyond tiny, for sure - less than 10 to the power -18 eV. Compare to an electron's 511,000 eV...but it is only from the mathematical model, special relativity, that we know the photon must have no mass.

So here you are, when you say "photons have no mass", you are citing and relying on the mathematical model, no less - yet you so gleefully lambast the mathematical models that postulate such things as gravitons as being "mythology". Shame on you, sir.
 
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Michael

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That's a silly question if you knew about what a graviton is posited to be. You betray your own ignorance.

Posited to be, and empirically shown to be are two entirely different matters.

There is no inflation "particle" in that particular cosmological model....ditto the above. Silly and disrespectful question that does your otherwise sensible discourse a disservice.
I suppose I should have used the term "field" rather than particle. Sometimes I use the term interchangeably, but in this case inflation is SO hypothetical, the term "particle" probably doesn't apply.

Inflation (cosmology) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If it exists, that's a very good question - well it would be, if you were asking what the mass of a piece of dark matter is, and if you better defined the word 'piece' which is a meaningless phrase in physics.
I love how you keep SKIPPING the point. :) It FAILS to show up in the lab you know. :)

I think you're wandering into territory I'm pretty sure I understand considerably better than you,
Possibly. What is your particular field of expertize anyway?

and your beliefs are so full of internal contradictions it's stunning.
Such as?

Photons have momentum (as per E2 = m2c4 + p2c2) - but from experimental data we only know the upper limit for their mass if they had it, and it's beyond tiny, for sure - less than 10 to the power -18 eV. Compare to an electron's 511,000 eV...but it is only from the mathematical model, special relativity, that we know the photon must have no mass.

So here you are, when you say "photons have no mass", you are citing and relying on the mathematical model, no less - yet you so gleefully lambast the mathematical models that postulate such things as gravitons as being "mythology". Shame on you, sir.
The difference is that photons show up in the lab, whereas not every mathematical construct ever created does so. :) Shame on you for being so gullible sir. :)
 
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Guy1

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A tad late for this but I'm going to reply anyway.
Actually is a placeholder term for kind of energy that might plug the gaps of an otherwise FALSIFIED and highly subjective interpretation of the redshift phenomenon.

We see the universe's expansion speeding up. We propose a force that would do such a thing while we try figuring out exactly what's going on. Is this so hard to understand?
Acceleration hasn't been "observed" anymore than tired light has been observed. Only redshift has been observed. No CAUSE has been established

Clearly it's been observed. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.
That was my intent in citing the Lancet study. It describes experiences during the time of clinical death.

Personal stories are not evidence.
The term isn't complete anymore than "dark energy" would be complete even if we KNEW that the universe was actually accelerating (but we don't).

The universe's expansion is accelerating. We just don't know what's causing it (Which is why we call it darkenergy).
Um, the term "soul" isn't arbitrary and we did create a name to describe it.

Read that again. I said any arbitrary name. I.e. we could call it anything really. "Soul", "mental energy", "Carl." The word doesn't matter so much as the phenomenon itself.
 
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mkatzwork

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Posited to be, and empirically shown to be are two entirely different matters.

Yes, but you show ignorance of what it is even posited to be. The question itself was silly even in the hypothetical domain, and sillier still in reality.

I suppose I should have used the term "field" rather than particle. Sometimes I use the term interchangeably, but in this case inflation is SO hypothetical, the term "particle" probably doesn't apply.

Better. Not great, but better. Inflation is a hypothesis, a hypothetical idea, with some predictions that have tested pretty much correct, and some thorny problems. What's your point exactly?

I love how you keep SKIPPING the point. :) It FAILS to show up in the lab you know. :)

What does this even mean? Fails to show up, like it was invited? Capitalisation just reinforces ignorance here. Do you even know why we have the idea of dark matter? It's because of observations of the universe...we didn't invent dark matter and then go looking for because it sounded, well, really cool.

Actually, an fyi - we are getting pretty close to being sure we've seen dark matter directly. There may still be alternative explanations for the data, but the WIMP theory is going pretty strong right now. Here's the main paper...

[1109.0702] Results from 730 kg days of the CRESST-II Dark Matter Search


Possibly. What is your particular field of expertize anyway?

I guess you mean expertise, (to) expertize means something a little different.

I have a BSc in Physics from Imperial, but I wouldn't claim expertise as I know a bit of how far the rabbit hole goes. String theory is beautiful - really beautiful when you know a bit of it - but the mathematics is eye-bleedingly complicated. Reasonably well read on quite a few other fields, including evolutionary biology. Was brought up Jewish although not in any orthodox sense, now entirely atheist.

You?


Your disdain for some mathematical models and love of others, based purely on what you think sounds good.

The difference is that photons show up in the lab, whereas not every mathematical construct ever created does so. :) Shame on you for being so gullible sir. :)

Your reliance on the notion of them having no mass is still purely mathematical and the fact they have no mass has not been confirmed in the lab either, so the point still stands. Good try at obfuscation though. You can't diss models at one point and then rely on them at another.
 
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mkatzwork

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I'm not seeing why hopoxia inducing an out of body experience would prove that there isn't a soul?

Yes - wouldn't agree with this either, it doesn't prove the non-existence of the soul, as much as anecdotal evidence doesn't prove that the soul exists...
 
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Non sequitur

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Er, no. I gave you a link to a clinical study on near death experiences that was published in the Lancet journal and ruled out all sorts of potential 'causes" for their experiences of awareness during clinical death.

I just handed you "evidence" which you can SUBJECTIVELY dismiss or accept as you wish.

Which spoke nothing about a soul. Check.

Sure, what the hell do the Russians know about science anyway, just because they put the first objects, men and women in space? So what if they're the only country besides the Chinese that are capable of putting humans into space at the moment? So what if the US and no western country can even afford or has the technical capacity to do that much at moment? What the heck does Russia know about science anyway?

And.....???

And......????

Really? I assumed you'd give me more credit than that. Russians know plenty about science, etc.

Pseudoscience was so prevalent in their society that the Russian Academy of Sciences had to create a special commission to combat it.

Here's some fun government stuff:

  • In the Ministry of Emergency Measures, a laboratory of “extrasenses” was arranged, and though no results have been reported yet, the laboratory nevertheless exists and is financially supported.
  • At the Ministry of Defense, a military astrologer is employed. In addition, the Ministry has created a specialized military unit manned with psychics and others who claim special powers.
  • At the Ministry of Defense, the Extreme Medicine Center was created. As described by the head of the Center, Professor P. Shalimov: “We test charged water, study man’s aura.”
  • The deputy chief of the President’s Security, General G. Rogozin, in addition to his main duties, was involved in astrological forecasts and occultism.
  • One academician of the Academy of Natural Science, G. Grabovoy, carried out a psychic check of the readiness of President Boris Yeltsin’s airplane.
  • Mr. Grabovoy took part in underground tests of nuclear weapons in Semipalatinsk where he supposedly investigated the influence of some device, “a crystalline module,” on a nuclear explosion. It was asserted that switching on the device makes the force of a nuclear explosion two times lower. But if one can use several such devices simultaneously, the force of explosion could be “nullified.”

That is what I was talking about. Their ability to accept oddities (and oddities is put nicely).

So, since it doesn't fit with all your personal preconceived ideas, you'll just throw it out altogether and pretend it never happened. Gotcha.

Well, lets see what I was talking about: "It doesn't seem that he could have been near-dead or brain dead, since the lack of oxygen would render him staying dead."

Yup, out it goes. Biology, science and my crazy preconceived ideas.
 
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Michael

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Yes, but you show ignorance of what it is even posited to be.

No, you simply ASSUMED that all on your own. There is however a distinct EMPIRICAL difference between THEORY and REALITY in terms of actual measurements in controlled experimentation. The one part you all seem to avoid like the plague is the fact that "science" puts FAITH in "hypothetical" particles and fields all the time! The concept of a soul FIELD is therefore AT LEAST as "empirically" justified as any claim about an 'inflation field' or "dark energy" or any of the QM hypothetical particles. It's no giant "leap of faith" to believe in a "field" of "soul". That kind of FAITH happens all the time in science.

The question itself was silly even in the hypothetical domain, and sillier still in reality.

No, it's simply silly to you.

Better. Not great, but better. Inflation is a hypothesis, a hypothetical idea, with some predictions that have tested pretty much correct, and some thorny problems. What's your point exactly?

My point is if one man, namely Alan Guth can CREATE a new hypothetical "field" in the head one night, WITHOUT scientific precedent of any sort, you can hardly fault me for hypothesizing about a field called "soul" that is responsible for awareness after physical death.

The "properties" that Guth assigned to his now dead deity were purely ad hoc and contrived with the EXPRESS INTENT of "explaining" KNOWN features of the universe. How could you POSSIBLY then fault me for doing the same thing in relationship to "soul"?

What does this even mean? Fails to show up, like it was invited? Capitalisation just reinforces ignorance here. Do you even know why we have the idea of dark matter? It's because of observations of the universe...we didn't invent dark matter and then go looking for because it sounded, well, really cool.

No. We only have evidence for "missing mass", just as we have evidence for "UFO'S". There is no evidence that any of the missing mass is contained in 'exotic matter' anymore than there is evidence that any of those "UFO's" humans see from time to time is NECESSARILY from another planet.

Actually, an fyi - we are getting pretty close to being sure we've seen dark matter directly. There may still be alternative explanations for the data, but the WIMP theory is going pretty strong right now. Here's the main paper...

[1109.0702] Results from 730 kg days of the CRESST-II Dark Matter Search

I find these kinds of studies to be "dark matter of the gaps" studies in the final analysis. They're essentially trying to "eliminate" all other possible contamination and options (neutrons, etc) from consideration (who knows how accurately) and then JUMPING to the conclusion that their method is correct, and the signal is NECESSARILY from 'dark matter'. I will read through the paper (I'm already committed to another 42 page paper that I'm only half way through at the moment), but you'll need to be a bit patient with me.

How exactly can you "observe" something that hasn't been shown to even be there?

Dark Matter Is Missing in Sun's Neighborhood?

It seems to me that you're simply "assuming" it's there, and going to extraordinary lengths to create experiments that may or may not be related to neutrons or "dark matter".

I have a BSc in Physics from Imperial, but I wouldn't claim expertise as I know a bit of how far the rabbit hole goes. String theory is beautiful - really beautiful when you know a bit of it - but the mathematics is eye-bleedingly complicated. Reasonably well read on quite a few other fields, including evolutionary biology. Was brought up Jewish although not in any orthodox sense, now entirely atheist.

Fascinating, simply fascinating. :) I'm always fascinated when atheists promote/put faith in string theory. :) I would think (from the outside looking in) that if you're willing to entertain the possibility of multiple extra dimensions, that you'd be more open to the possibility of an "intelligent creator". I mean in ALL those extra dimensions, aren't you opening up a lot of potential doors for pretty much ANYTHING?


I'm a self employed 52 year old computer programer by trade (and education). I've been interested and I've been studying astronomy since the late 60's when we first put men on the moon. That pretty much sparked a life long interest and fascination with space and all theories related to space. :) I probably read a dozen papers a month on the topic even today. My "hobby" got a little expensive for awhile when I got into MHD theory because the books are REALLY pricey. I had some "explaining" to do when my wife saw that bill. :) For the most part however it's a relatively inexpensive hobby, particularly with the advent of the internet.

Your disdain for some mathematical models and love of others, based purely on what you think sounds good.

The point I've been trying to make is that mathematical models and such are not 'reality'. They are simply models that may or may not be valid. There's really no valid connection between inflation and a flat universe for instance. It's mathematically MUCH more likely that the universe would be "flat" without inflation, 10 to the 100th power as I recall! How then can that "math" related to "flatness" then be considered evidence for inflation only because the universe happens to be flat? See the dilemma?

Your reliance on the notion of them having no mass is still purely mathematical and the fact they have no mass has not been confirmed in the lab either, so the point still stands. Good try at obfuscation though. You can't diss models at one point and then rely on them at another.

IMO you're missing the point. The idea of me proposing a field/particle called "soul" to explain the construct called "soul" isn't anything "unusual". It's also not "unusual" to look to the universe around you to connect that "hypothetical field" to something in the universe. Guth did it. Everyone does it. You can't fault me for considering the possibility, particularly if you intend to entertain string theory. :)
 
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Michael

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So they weren't dead, at all. Hypoxia is the explanation, it's reproducible, with similar results - there is no soul.

As I've explained, that Lancet study actually considered and ELIMINATED many potential physical options as a potential cause for the NDE, and it eliminated them all, including hypoxia. Do you have any published scientific study that supports your claim about hypoxia?
 
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mzungu

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As I've explained, that Lancet study actually considered and ELIMINATED many potential physical options as a potential cause for the NDE, and it eliminated them all, including hypoxia. Do you have any published scientific study that supports your claim about hypoxia?
If only you knew how the brain perceives the physical world. Hint: most of what you see is filled in by the brain simply because it does not have the processing power to process all the bits of information sent by the eyes. Also the Brain needs to learn to see. It makes little difference if the information is conjured up from memmory or is sent directly by the eyes as it is the brain that sees and what it sees is open to interpretation.
 
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Michael

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Which spoke nothing about a soul. Check.

You're right about that, but many of them experienced something they called "God" during the NDE process including atheists.

Really? I assumed you'd give me more credit than that. Russians know plenty about science, etc.

Pseudoscience was so prevalent in their society that the Russian Academy of Sciences had to create a special commission to combat it.

You seem to be trying to make a connection where non has been established only to discredit what amounts to entire country. That seems a bit dubious from my perspective. I have no reason to believe that a Russian is any less accurate in pronouncing clinical death than an American, or a Canadian, etc.

Well, lets see what I was talking about: "It doesn't seem that he could have been near-dead or brain dead, since the lack of oxygen would render him staying dead."

Yup, out it goes. Biology, science and my crazy preconceived ideas.

Yep, the circular feedback loop kicked in alright. :) You do realize that many children have drown in cold conditions and been brought back to life after a relatively long period of time without permanent brain impairment, right?
Toddler is OK after being pronounced DOA - TODAY News - People: Tales of survival - TODAY.com
 
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Guy1

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You're right about that, but many of them experienced something they called "God" during the NDE process including atheists.

And many people have experienced what they call "His Noodly Appendage" during times of great stress. Your point?




Yep, the circular feedback loop kicked in alright. :) You do realize that many children have drown in cold conditions and been brought back to life after a relatively long period of time without permanent brain impairment, right?

You do realize they induced a state of hypothermia to slow the consumption of oxygen thus reducing the chance death and the severity of the brain damage, right?
 
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Non sequitur

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You're right about that, but many of them experienced something they called "God" during the NDE process including atheists.

Nope, not one mention of "soul", "proof of soul" and now neither "atheist" or "God". This is at least your 2nd time saying things happened in the study that didn't. Why don't you just make up your own? That's essentially what you've been doing so far...

Before you backpedal or sidestep, can you explain why you keep saying things are there, that are not? Especially if you provided the link?

You seem to be trying to make a connection where non has been established only to discredit what amounts to entire country. That seems a bit dubious from my perspective. I have no reason to believe that a Russian is any less accurate in pronouncing clinical death than an American, or a Canadian, etc.

All I am saying is the are very accepting of mumbo-jumbo. It's not conclusive, locked-down or anything. Just an understanding of their "science" and what they accept as "real".

Yep, the circular feedback loop kicked in alright. :) You do realize that many children have drown in cold conditions and been brought back to life after a relatively long period of time without permanent brain impairment, right?
Toddler is OK after being pronounced DOA - TODAY News - People: Tales of survival - TODAY.com

"They said there was an experimental treatment called therapeutic hypothermia that might improve his chances of recovery."


Go science?
 
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