Physical universe vs spiritual realm, compatible with Christianity?

[miamited]

Thank you for your comments.

I assume emotions and thinking and memories and etc. are associated with souls or spirits. I assume also, that the subjective conscious experience of all this is outside the material physical universe.

Does that answer what you are asking?

HI jesus316,

Yes, it does. My point was just to make sure that you were aware that your claim was an assumption on your part. We don't really know exactly what makes up a soul and spirit. I have to admit that what really threw me was your inclusion of mathematics, languages and such as being 'spiritual'.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[Tayla]

That all depends on how close you mean when you say "about". For some purposes, that's not good enough.

It's always been close enough for me.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I am always puzzled by Christians who seem to need to adorn their beliefs with a veneer of science. YECs, global flood, the spiritual realm, etc. Eventually, when confronted they have to fall back to the ramparts, lobbing 'because the Bible says so' bombs as they retreat.

 

[RaymondG]

I agree that everything that makes you "you", is in the spiritual realm. I believe that Body was created for you to have experiences on earth....but the "you" having the experience is elsewhere. Since we've been here so long, we started believing that we are the body and have a hard time seeing passed it. The bible teaches that we are to put off this carnal thinking and get back to the spirit. Once done, we will be reborn and see who we truly are.... then we will be alive.. "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Simply that it is experienced by our conscious awareness. Yes, I agree there are brain functions and changes in hormone levels and other physical components to all this. These are chemical and biological.

I accept dualism: the notion that subjective consciousness and/or mind are in some way outside of the material physical universe. There are scientists and philosophers who are dualists. I have merely added on concepts from Christian metaphysics to this dualist view.

If the spiritual is outside our universe, then aren't you merely postulating a different place to store it without any real reason for such? Is the value of pi such a thing as to require storage elsewhere in order to exist?

 

[Tayla]

Yes, it does. My point was just to make sure that you were aware that your claim was an assumption on your part. We don't really know exactly what makes up a soul and spirit. I have to admit that what really threw me was your inclusion of mathematics, languages and such as being 'spiritual'.

Thanks for responding.

Yes, of course. How can anyone prove anything like this? I'm merely taking what we know from the Bible about Christian metaphysics, combining that with materialistic science, and coming to conclusions. I don't know of anyone else who has done this; I'm hoping more people will.

 

[Tayla]

I am always puzzled by Christians who seem to need to adorn their beliefs with a veneer of science. YECs, global flood, the spiritual realm, etc. Eventually, when confronted they have to fall back to the ramparts, lobbing 'because the Bible says so' bombs as they retreat.

Thank you for your comments.

Yes, I believe the testimony of the New Testament writers, the apostles, is worthy of belief. There are sufficient historical confirmations. I also accept their claims about who Jesus was (is) and what Jesus taught.

They teach of a spiritual realm inhabited by spirit beings (good and evil) and the souls of humans.

My views of science derive from the scientific method and modern science. I personally think young earth views are really bad science, so I reject them.

I believed I have addressed your comments. Please feel free to comment as often as you wish.

 

[Tayla]

If the spiritual is outside our universe, then aren't you merely postulating a different place to store it without any real reason for such? Is the value of pi such a thing as to require storage elsewhere in order to exist?

Thank you for your thoughtful comments.

I believe there is very good reason to postulate a spiritual realm for everything non-material in science and everything non-physical in the Bible.

There are scientists and philosophers embracing dualism to explain the subjective experience of consciousness, so I'm in good company. (Of course, they would not accept my view because it goes too far and is based on Christian metaphysics.)

Even the philosopher Kant placed mathematics outside of the physical realm, so again, I'm in good company.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Thank you for your thoughtful comments.

I believe there is very good reason to postulate a spiritual realm for everything non-material in science and everything non-physical in the Bible.

There are scientists and philosophers embracing dualism to explain the subjective experience of consciousness, so I'm in good company. (Of course, they would not accept my view because it goes too far and is based on Christian metaphysics.)

Even the philosopher Kant placed mathematics outside of the physical realm, so again, I'm in good company.

In my own thoughts - it is precisely mathematics that is the outside source of things. But I include infinities in that.

It would be perfectly logical for there to be nothing. Nothing would be consistent. But clearly, things exist, instead. Why? I don't have a logical reason why there is something rather than nothing. But clearly there is something. We are here. Hmmm.

If there was nothing, would numbers exist anyway? The concept of one . . two . . . three . . .all the way to infinity? It seems to me we can't rule that out. It's not as if numbers need anything to exist.

Every word document is really a number. A great big number, consisting of all the bytes put together . . . but it takes a word program to transform it into a document we can read. And there are other ways to interpret numbers. Other programs would make alternate numbers out of a given document. Clearly there has to be a great number that would describe our universe. It would be very, very large. It would require a vast program to read it. There could be alternate numbers that describe the same universe for alternate vast programs.

The programs that would read such vast numbers would, themselves, be vast numbers being executed somehow. For numbers to relate to themselves this way - why would they even do that? I don't have a logical reason why there is something rather than nothing, either, but perhaps the solution (unknown to me) is the same here. It seems to me it might be that way.

Further, it seems to me that infinite numbers are as real as finite numbers in this context.

I've always held that God is the creator of God, and the reason this is possible is because of the seemingly paradoxical qualities of infinite numbers - and God being infinite is able to be the source of His own existence.

And this results, as a consequence, in the existence of all lesser things.

So the mind of God contemplating all things results in, as a small subset of all things, our universe.

 

[Tayla]

I've always held that God is the creator of God, and the reason this is possible is because of the seemingly paradoxical qualities of infinite numbers - and God being infinite is able to be the source of His own existence.

And this results, as a consequence, in the existence of all lesser things.

So the mind of God contemplating all things results in, as a small subset of all things, our universe.

A very metaphysical comment. Thank you for sharing it.

It had never occurred to me that God creates himself. Certainly the Trinity has a strangeness to it similar. If the Father is eternally begetting the Son, perhaps this causes God to be eternally creating himself in some way?

I personally have no use for such ideas in my philosophical system. The closest I get is in considering that God, in creating free-will conscious creatures; that God has created a domain for them outside himself. God is not conscious of what we are conscious of, nor does God have any direct knowledge or experience of evil; he knows it exists only because we cry out to him for salvation from it. And so he sent a Savior.

Anyway, I wish you well in your philosophical pursuits. Please feel free to comment anytime you like. Maybe start a thread of some such topic, and please invite me.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

A very metaphysical comment. Thank you for sharing it.

It had never occurred to me that God creates himself. Certainly the Trinity has a strangeness to it similar. If the Father is eternally begetting the Son, perhaps this causes God to be eternally creating himself in some way?

I personally have no use for such ideas in my philosophical system. The closest I get is in considering that God, in creating free-will conscious creatures; that God has created a domain for them outside himself. God is not conscious of what we are conscious of, nor does God have any direct knowledge or experience of evil; he knows it exists only because we cry out to him for salvation from it. And so he sent a Savior.

Anyway, I wish you well in your philosophical pursuits. Please feel free to comment anytime you like. Maybe start a thread of some such topic, and please invite me.

As long as we acknowledge that we have no way of checking our metaphysics, its something we can indulge . . . . if only we could conduct experiments like those scientists can! Anyway, I have no problem with God actually knowing all about us. Its just that He allows us to be free, anyway.

 

[Tayla]

As long as we acknowledge that we have no way of checking our metaphysics, its something we can indulge . . . . if only we could conduct experiments like those scientists can! Anyway, I have no problem with God actually knowing all about us. Its just that He allows us to be free, anyway.

Thank you for your insightful comments.

There is a way to validate metaphysical views: test them with their consequences in history. I believe some views, even by Christians, have proven to be bad, very bad.

I've come to the conclusion God is only good. He doesn't kill or destroy or punish. He has no direct experience with anything evil or wicked. But I reject any notion there are two Gods, one good and one bad.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Thank you for your insightful comments.

There is a way to validate metaphysical views: test them with their consequences in history. I believe some views, even by Christians, have proven to be bad, very bad.

I've come to the conclusion God is only good. He doesn't kill or destroy or punish. He has no direct experience with anything evil or wicked. But I reject any notion there are two Gods, one good and one bad.

You shall know them by their fruits? Hmmmm . . . where did you get that idea?

 

[elliott95]

Sacramental Christianity is based in the Resurrection of the Body. The Incarnation is based in God becoming Son of man, carnate, a historical being very much of the world of matter and time and space, and pscyhology and sociology.

"Behold I am creating all things new" speaks of the sacralizing of this world of flesh and blood and water, a new heaven and a new earth, a resurrected world of Spirit bodies.
The duality of separate realms where ne'er the twain shall meet is an incomplete, and therefore misleading conception of reality.