Physical universe vs spiritual realm, compatible with Christianity?

[Tayla]

Curious what y'all think about this topic. I think it is compatible with Christianity and provides useful insights.

(1) I propose scientists are correct about the physical material universe. Life exists only in the chemical, biological sense. The scientific method has yielded much knowledge.

(2) I propose also there is a spiritual realm containing: cognition, consciousness, creativity, emotions, feelings, ideas, life, love, mathematics, memories, mind, reason, souls, spirits, symbols, the meaning in languages, the part of God we interact with, the unconscious and subconscious mind, the will.

(3) The soul communicates with the body, perhaps via some quantum mechanics function...

1. Body to soul: data inputs to the senses, is processed by the brain, then sent to the soul.
2. Soul to body: the will determines what action it wants to perform, then sends command to the body, received by the brain, transmitted to the muscles for movement.

I have written an article with more detail here. Please feel free to read it.

Here are things I hope we don't discuss; they are off topic (start your own thread if you wish to discuss these):

1. Young earth creationism. I am old-earth, pro-science.
2. Anti-evolution.
3. I am a born-again, radically-saved, on-fire-for-the-Lord Christian, a Trinitarian and believer in the Nicene Creed. If you don't believe it, I don't want to hear about it.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Curious what y'all think about this topic. I think it is compatible with Christianity and provides useful insights.

(1) I propose scientists are correct about the physical material universe. Life exists only in the chemical, biological sense. The scientific method has yielded much knowledge.

(2) I propose also there is a spiritual realm containing: cognition, consciousness, creativity, emotions, feelings, ideas, life, love, mathematics, memories, mind, reason, souls, spirits, symbols, the meaning in languages, the part of God we interact with, the unconscious and subconscious mind, the will.

(3) The soul communicates with the body, perhaps via some quantum mechanics function...

1. Body to soul: data inputs to the senses, is processed by the brain, then sent to the soul.
2. Soul to body: the will determines what action it wants to perform, then sends command to the body, received by the brain, transmitted to the muscles for movement.

Here are things I hope we don't discuss; they are off topic (start your own thread if you wish to discuss these):

1. Young earth creationism. I am old-earth, pro-science.
2. Anti-evolution.
3. I am a born-again, radically-saved, on-fire-for-the-Lord Christian, a Trinitarian and believer in the Nicene Creed. If you don't believe it, I don't want to hear about it.

Hey, good topic! But as for point 3, I tend to think that the soul is an emergent property of the body, especially the computer that is our brain, that is inevitable when the computation reaches a high enough level.

 

[SkyWriting]

Curious what y'all think about this topic. I think it is compatible with Christianity and provides useful insights.

(1) I propose scientists are correct about the physical material universe. Life exists only in the chemical, biological sense. The scientific method has yielded much knowledge.

(2) I propose also there is a spiritual realm containing: cognition, consciousness, creativity, emotions, feelings, ideas, life, love, mathematics, memories, mind, reason, souls, spirits, symbols, the meaning in languages, the part of God we interact with, the unconscious and subconscious mind, the will.

(3) The soul communicates with the body, perhaps via some quantum mechanics function...

1. Body to soul: data inputs to the senses, is processed by the brain, then sent to the soul.
2. Soul to body: the will determines what action it wants to perform, then sends command to the body, received by the brain, transmitted to the muscles for movement.

Here are things I hope we don't discuss; they are off topic (start your own thread if you wish to discuss these):

1. Young earth creationism. I am old-earth, pro-science.
2. Anti-evolution.
3. I am a born-again, radically-saved, on-fire-for-the-Lord Christian, a Trinitarian and believer in the Nicene Creed. If you don't believe it, I don't want to hear about it.

The scriptures say "God is Spirit".
So there ya go.

 

[miamited]

Curious what y'all think about this topic. I think it is compatible with Christianity and provides useful insights.

(1) I propose scientists are correct about the physical material universe. Life exists only in the chemical, biological sense. The scientific method has yielded much knowledge.

(2) I propose also there is a spiritual realm containing: cognition, consciousness, creativity, emotions, feelings, ideas, life, love, mathematics, memories, mind, reason, souls, spirits, symbols, the meaning in languages, the part of God we interact with, the unconscious and subconscious mind, the will.

(3) The soul communicates with the body, perhaps via some quantum mechanics function...

1. Body to soul: data inputs to the senses, is processed by the brain, then sent to the soul.
2. Soul to body: the will determines what action it wants to perform, then sends command to the body, received by the brain, transmitted to the muscles for movement.

Here are things I hope we don't discuss; they are off topic (start your own thread if you wish to discuss these):

1. Young earth creationism. I am old-earth, pro-science.
2. Anti-evolution.
3. I am a born-again, radically-saved, on-fire-for-the-Lord Christian, a Trinitarian and believer in the Nicene Creed. If you don't believe it, I don't want to hear about it.

Hi jesus316,

My understanding regarding your point 1:

Yes, I agree that science is correct, in human terms, as to what things are made of and how things interact, etc. I say in human terms because it's possible that God doesn't call the black stuff that we drill out of the ground to make fuel - oil. It's possible that he doesn't break down all the various kinds of rock and many different species of animals in the same way that we do. He may not see the genus, phylum, species of animal identification as we do. However, as man has classified these things, man is correct as far as such classification fitting what man has determined are these classifications.

Yes, I agree that science has given us some benefit in understanding how the creation works. The only thing I'm not in agreement with science, and don't think they have been correct in telling us, is how old all these things are.

Point 2:

Yes, there is a spiritual realm, but it's not defined as you define it. Cognition, consciousness, creativity, emotions, feelings, ideas, life, love, mathematics, memories, mind, reason, souls, spirits, symbols, the meaning in languages, the part of God we interact with, the unconscious and subconscious mind, the will. These things are not what the Scriptures speak of when it mentions the spiritual realm except for possibly what you define as soul and spirit. For a better understanding of the spiritual realm, as God speaks of it, I'd suggest reading Frank Peretti's 'This Present Darkness' or 'This Piercing Darkness'

Point 3:

Yes, our individual souls are a part of our individual bodies, but how they actually interact is quite beyond our ability to understand. You seem to believe that it may be through some quantum mechanics function. Just so long as you do understand that you're actually saying the same thing as I am, we don't understand the relationship. Throwing out a proposition that something may be a particular way isn't the same as saying that something is that particular way. It's just a best guess. Personally, I see the soul as an integral part of the body and the one is so entwined with the other that the soul always knows what the body is doing or thinking. But again, that's just a best guess of the actual relationship of soul and body. Finally, I'm not even sure that when the lost man speaks of the soul, that he is speaking of the same thing when God speaks of the soul.

According to the Scriptures, we see a day when the 'souls' of those who are God's are underneath an altar. This would intimate that the soul of a man doesn't die with the man. It continues to exist as an individual soul of an individual person, but our understanding of 'how' this happens is not clear to us.

All we can trust as true is what God has told us is true. Other than telling us that a man has a soul, God doesn't really give us a lot of detailed information of the relationship of the soul to the man or how the soul is extracted from the man upon the physical death of the body. What God's word does seem clear on is that each man has a soul and that soul is somehow separated from the body upon our physical death.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[Tayla]

All we can trust as true is what God has told us is true. Other than telling us that a man has a soul, God doesn't really give us a lot of detailed information of the relationship of the soul to the man or how the soul is extracted from the man upon the physical death of the body.

Thank you for your thoughtful and lengthy comments.

The perspective you present is a good one, but it offers no guidance to prevent quarreling about the proper interpretation of scripture. For example, some teach the soul dies with the body, and only those having a spirit (meaning, Christians) live on after death.

This is why I break it down the way I do. Science is based on materialism; that only the universe composed of physical matter exists. I grant them this. But everything else needs a home, and I call this the Spiritual Realm. Since it doesn't seem to me that emotions (for example) are composed of matter (but the corresponding brain function is), I place emotions in the Spiritual Realm.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Thank you for your thoughtful and lengthy comments.

The perspective you present is a good one, but it offers no guidance to prevent quarreling about the proper interpretation of scripture. For example, some teach the soul dies with the body, and only those having a spirit (meaning, Christians) live on after death.

This is why I break it down the way I do. Science is based on materialism; that only the universe composed of physical matter exists. I grant them this. But everything else needs a home, and I call this the Spiritual Realm. Since it doesn't seem to me that emotions (for example) are composed of matter (but the corresponding brain function is), I place emotions in the Spiritual Realm.

Every pet owner knows the lower animals - such as their dogs and cats - can experience emotions. Do you place their emotions in the spiritual realm as well?

 

[Tayla]

Every pet owner knows the lower animals - such as their dogs and cats - can experience emotions. Do you place their emotions in the spiritual realm as well?

yes

 

[Tayla]

Interesting and helpful comments. Thank y'all.

 

[Tayla]

Every pet owner knows the lower animals - such as their dogs and cats - can experience emotions. Do you place their emotions in the spiritual realm as well?

In my view, animals have souls which survive death and will be resurrected to enjoy eternity in the new heavens and new earth, along with redeemed humans.

 

[Tayla]

Yes, there is a spiritual realm, but it's not defined as you define it. Cognition, consciousness, creativity, emotions, feelings, ideas, life, love, mathematics, memories, mind, reason, souls, spirits, symbols, the meaning in languages, the part of God we interact with, the unconscious and subconscious mind, the will.

Thank you for your comments.

I place these items in the spiritual realm because they are not material physical matter. Certainly they are associated in some way with souls or spirits.

 

[Tayla]

Personally, I see the soul as an integral part of the body and the one is so entwined with the other that the soul always knows what the body is doing or thinking.

Yes, I agree.

I distinguish between the brain thinking and the subjective conscious awareness of thinking, which can also be called thinking.

 

[Tayla]

According to the Scriptures, we see a day when the 'souls' of those who are God's are underneath an altar. This would intimate that the soul of a man doesn't die with the man. It continues to exist as an individual soul of an individual person

Yes, I agree.

In my view this soul is again joined up with its resurrected body to spend eternity in the new heavens and new earth.

 

[Tayla]

each man has a soul and that soul is somehow separated from the body upon our physical death.

The soul isn't separated from the body, rather, its communication with the body disconnects when the body ceases to be alive in its chemical biological functioning.

 

[Tayla]

Every pet owner knows the lower animals - such as their dogs and cats - can experience emotions. Do you place their emotions in the spiritual realm as well?

Yes, why do you ask?

 

[miamited]

Thank you for your comments.

I place these items in the spiritual realm because they are not material physical matter. Certainly they are associated in some way with souls or spirits.

Hi jesus316,

Maybe? On what basis do you find proof that such a statement is true? You make the claim that 'certainly they are associated in some way with souls or spirits'. Why do you think that?

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Yes, why do you ask?

Well, it seems to me the problem of what the soul is, what the mind is, what spirit is, are basic to this topic, and so it matters what the emotions of the animals actually are. Emotions really matter to us. Perhaps without emotions, we would never bother to do anything, lacking motivation. Emotions are accompanied by physiological changes in our bodies. So - what, exactly, is it about an emotion that qualifies it to be a spiritual thing instead of a physical thing?

I have other questions, designed to pin down just what it means for something to be spiritual.

Take the value of pi - the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter. Never have any of us actually seen or understood its exact value, all we can do is approximate that exact value. Very very close, but never precisely.

Is the exact value of pi a physical thing or a spiritual thing?

 

[Tayla]

On what basis do you find proof that such a statement is true? You make the claim that 'certainly they are associated in some way with souls or spirits'. Why do you think that?

Thank you for your comments.

I assume emotions and thinking and memories and etc. are associated with souls or spirits. I assume also, that the subjective conscious experience of all this is outside the material physical universe.

Does that answer what you are asking?

 

[Tayla]

what, exactly, is it about an emotion that qualifies it to be a spiritual thing instead of a physical thing?

Simply that it is experienced by our conscious awareness. Yes, I agree there are brain functions and changes in hormone levels and other physical components to all this. These are chemical and biological.

I accept dualism: the notion that subjective consciousness and/or mind are in some way outside of the material physical universe. There are scientists and philosophers who are dualists. I have merely added on concepts from Christian metaphysics to this dualist view.

 

[Tayla]

Is the exact value of pi a physical thing or a spiritual thing?

Mathematics resides in the spiritual realm. The physical universe has no concept of mathematical laws of physics controlling its behavior.

The exact value of pi is about 22/7 -- this is common knowledge.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

The exact value of pi is about 22/7 -- this is common knowledge.

That all depends on how close you mean when you say "about". For some purposes, that's not good enough.