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Philosophical arguments against the existence of God

Davian

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I'll entertain your embittered derailment for at least a few posts. Obviously criteria are important. Let's take one: effect.

Cats produce effects. Hair, dander, furballs, waste, dead mice, kittens, etc. If I find all those things I can reason to the existence of a cat.

God produces effects--let's just focus on the more obvious effects. Religion, high percentages of religious persons (belief), charitable works and foundations, holy books, sacred places, monks, zealots, etc.
God beleifs produce effects. I don't see how you need actual gods to have god beliefs. After all, they cannot all be right.
The birds-eye view displays God's existence rather obviously.
Which "God", in particular? The character in a book named "God" that [allegedly] walked and talked in a garden that has no evidence of having existed, poofed people and animals into existence, and later, in a manner contrary to the modern understanding of genetics, populated the planet with a tiny group of individuals and animals that survived a global flood in an unbuildable boat, a flood that killed the dinosaurs in a manner that only *appears* to be 65 million years ago, because the Earth is really only somehow 6000 years old, yet remains, by every object measure to date indistinguishable from nothing?

That is not obvious to me.
If an atheist born in a vacuum were to take a guess at what the world looks like, he would be wildly mistaken.
Mistaken about what?
And if he takes a look at the real world
You mean, the world as *you* interpret it?
and wants to retain his atheism,
I do not want to retain my atheism; the term only describes my current theological position (ignostic atheist). What I want is to have an accurate description of reality. I cannot conciously choose what I believe.
he will need a stack of explanations and accounts more complicated than the fibs propelling Pinocchio's nose!
Please detail this "stack".
Occam's Razor is a sure remedy, but side effects may include loss of cynicism and superiority, as well as difficulty in breathing until the nose heals. ;)
Occam's Razor is particularly unfriendly to god concepts. Are you sure you want to wave that around like that?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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And to say: "We don't know how or why the first life came to be, but science will one day tell us.." is an article of faith.
No, it's not. It expresses a hope that we will one day know the answer. It's possible that we may never know.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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You are attacking a strawman. No one is claiming that evolution is not a fact. We observe living organisms evolving to adapt to their environment. This is a fact.

The Theory of Evolution by natural selection as some sort of all-encompassing explanation for the existence of life is what she and I argue against.
Then it's you who is arguing against a strawman.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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It compares to gods because like some people who don't want to believe they have cancer even after being shown that they do, some don't want to believe there is a God to whom they are accountable even after being shown that there is.
The text in bold is where the analogy breaks down.
 
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sparow

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A Philpapers.org survey conducted in 2009 would suggest that a strong majority of professional philosophers are atheists, or at least inclined to non-theism:

God: theism or atheism?

Accept or lean toward: atheism 1257 / 1803 (69.7%)
Accept or lean toward: theism 295 / 1803 (16.4%)
Other 251 / 1803 (13.9%)


(As an aside: the only two other topics that philosophers leant towards as strongly were scientific realism (70.1%) and non-skeptical realism (76.7%) - i.e that we actually do live in the world we perceive and we can use the scientific method to discover truths about that real world._

The question we might then ask is: why aren't philosophers more active in formulating arguments against the existence of God?

I think that the answer to this question lies in the mindset of philosophers. As the majority of them clearly don't believe in a God or gods, they have little or no reason to discuss the topic. Atheism is not a positive claim in and of it self. Atheism is the non-acceptance of a claim of other. Thus, there is little for professional philosophers to debate a non-positivist position, and thus little reason for them to formulate arguments for the non-existence of God and/or gods.

Or maybe they think that its something that has already been addressed and they don't need to do it.

As for me, I find two main defeaters of the classical Christian God, which I will define as the God of the Bible with the properties of omniscience, omnipotence, omnibenevolence and omnipresence which chooses to interact with physical reality in some way.

The first is that the god of the omnis is logically incoherent, in that its properties are ultimately logically self-contradicting. Some apologists get around this by exchanging omniXXXXX for 'maximally', but this is just a linguistic evasion.

The second is the problem of divine hidden-ness. I'm not going to launch into a full formulation, as there are a couple of excellent philosophical videos from two of my favourite non-believers, Matt Dillahunty (28-ish minute video) and Scott Clifton (10-ish minute video):


[/QUOT


I am a realist, I expect Atheists to not know about God; at the same time the nonsense that come from many believers is frightening. One of these youtubes spoke about assumptions. Assumptions are a natural mental function, akin to time; remember prove the theorem from school, every mathematical theorem begins with a fundamental assumption. There is nothing wrong with a believer assuming God exists and nothing wrong the Atheist assuming God does not exist; The person who doesn't assume is brain dead. However one of these assumptions is wrong; the Atheists position is that their assumption take the form of a negative hypothesis so that cannot go anywhere; the believer's may be testable; is this assumption so basic and fundamentally indisputable that it can be taken for granted, as in mathematical proofs? In proving God exists is this assumption that God exists as far as the proof can go and no further division is possible?
 
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zippy2006

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Good thing you know about cats. You know something about what they look like, their biology at least in general terms, and the like. You don't really know what God is except for the alleged "effects".

It's a poor analogy.

Effect-to-cause reasoning is a very common mode of reasoning. By rejecting it you can avoid God, but unfortunately you will lose science at the same time. Scientific theories, especially in fields such as particle physics, are essentially an attempt to explain a set of effects by reference to some other entity (which is often unseen). A quark, for example. In fact the reason you know about cats is because at some point a human encountered a cat for the first time and used this kind of reasoning in order to learn what exactly a cat is. His understanding was passed down through language, science, and education until it entered your own head. These mere "alleged effects" are the only reason you know anything at all. Perhaps if you knew more they would be more impressive. ;)

It's a poor counterargument.
 
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sparow

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Well I guess the most famous is the problem of suffering.

If God is loving why doesn't he save people from natural disasters and illness? Humans would do this, in the name of compassion if they could; God doesn't.

If God is love, why doesn't he stop rape and murder? Don't say free will. Police stopping a criminal isn't a violation of free will, it's a restriction of liberty.

If you say that God's love is significantly different from what we mean by love, why call God loving?

Saying God is love is as ridiculous as it gets; some peculiar definition of love would describe God's motive for kicking people in the head as a last resort; this issue as well as getting off topic is to big to handle here.

The word love is meaningless, its uses being so prolific, the meaning of love is derived from the rest of the sentence or paragraph in which it is used such that the word could be omitted and the meaning still obvious.
 
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sparow

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[/QUOT


I am a realist, I expect Atheists to not know about God; at the same time the nonsense that come from many believers is frightening. One of these youtubes spoke about assumptions. Assumptions are a natural mental function, akin to time; remember prove the theorem from school, every mathematical theorem begins with a fundamental assumption. There is nothing wrong with a believer assuming God exists and nothing wrong the Atheist assuming God does not exist; The person who doesn't assume is brain dead. However one of these assumptions is wrong; the Atheists position is that their assumption take the form of a negative hypothesis so that cannot go anywhere; the believer's may be testable; is this assumption so basic and fundamentally indisputable that it can be taken for granted, as in mathematical proofs? In proving God exists is this assumption that God exists as far as the proof can go and no further division is possible?
 
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Hoghead1

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I think that faith in God depends largely on your definition and description of God. I believe that many people became atheists because traditional Christianity provided a most unsatisfying description of God as he is in his own nature. Let me explain further.
It is true that evolution is stating to play god for many. Many find the universe with its complexity and its vast profusions of relationships, internal as well as external, to be far more fascinating and aesthetically pleasing that the traditional Christian image of God, which seems, in comparison, too one-dimensional, to stale, too flat to be f any real aesthetic interest. Now, some may be taken back about what I just said here about the traditional model of God. So let me explain.




Since all this may be new to you, let me say again that the traditional Christian model of God came largely from Hellenic philosophy, not the Bible. I think you need to appreciate that you may be at a real disadvantage here, as you may not have had much background in church history or theology. So before you jump all over me all over as talking about something way outside Christianity, at least in your view, let me explain more about where I am coming from. So. let me go over more carefully about the historical data I am using here. Everything, and I mean everything that I said about classical theism, comes directly right out of the mouths of the historic Christian creeds as well at the church fathers.



First a bit about Hellenic philosophy. The Greeks were the master metaphysicians of the ancient world, and definitely not the Israelites. The Bible is not a book in metaphysics. it tells us very little about how God is built. Although there were many schools of Hellenic philosophy, those which tended to predominate wrestled with the world of time, change, materiality. The Greeks had real problems here. Some argued that all movement is in utter impossibility. Especially in the Platonic schools, the whole world of time, change, matter was written off as a big illusion and the source of all evil. The divine, 'the really real," was a wholly immaterial world of static perfection, wholly simple, wholly immutable. Early on, the church fathers, in search of a metaphysical system, feely incorporated major elements of Hellenic philosophy in to their doctrine of God. The result was a doctrine of God in which the Deity appears as a passionless absolute or impersonal mechanical principle.

Who said God has no emotion, no real feeling? Well, one major source is Westminster Confession of Faith, a major confession in the history of Protestantism, that's who. I By the way, if you want to study matters more here. it would be helpful to you to obtain a copy of "The Book of Confessions," which contains all the main historic creeds and confessions. Anyhow, when I speak of God as "without body, parts, or passions, immutable," I am directly the WC, Pt,60.11, "Of God and of the Trinity."

Another major source is "The Second Helvetic Confession," pt.5.069. It states that" The Divine Nature of Christ is not passible...therefore we do not in any way teach that the divine nature in Christ has suffered." This is the traditional doctrine that Chris has two separate, independent natures: the human one, which is capable of emotion , and then the divine or God part of Christ, which is incapable of all emotion ( not passible). Why the two separate natures, when there is no such concept in Scripture of Christ as a kind house divided against itself? Because the church fathers felt that the Father, who is strictly speaking God, cannot suffer or experience any form of emotion, as otherwise he would not be a statically complete perfection. Early Christians who believed that God the Father had real emotion and suffered were declared heretics and drummed out of the church.

But what about the Bible, the way it speaks of God as loving, having deep feeling, suffering, expressing sorrow , experiencing real anger, , etc? The SOP was to use the what is called the doctrine of accommodation. So, firth down the line the church fathers would simply state that these biblical descriptions had absolutely nothing to do with the actual nature of God. Our intellects are so puny and weak, that God has to talk "baby talk" (Calvin's term) to us so that we can understand. So, more than once in his sermons he will talk about the wrath and anger of God and then say to the congregation that ,of course, this is not an accurate picture of God, that he has no emotion, let alone anger, and that this is just a way of making God understandable to us carnal creatures who do have emotion.



Both St. Anselm of Canterbury and St. Thomas Aquinas stressed that God is absolutely without any compassion whatsoever. St. Anselm advanced two arguments. It is better not to suffer than to suffer. Hence, God cannot suffer. Another was that God could not have any compassion, as he has no passion no emotion or feeling to begin with. Aquinas followed suit. In describing God's love, he emphasized that it is not at all like our love. What;s the difference? When we love someone, we have compassion, we God, however, because of his high status, and passionless nature, cannot and does not do that. sympathize wit their pains and sorrows. Tell me the church fathers didn't promote a cold unfeeling model of God! In fact, St, Anselm said that when God seems to help us, it is like cold rain pouring on our faces. Couple all this with the fact the fathers sis not believe God could change, was without even the shadow of movement, to quote St, Augustine, and yes, it is fair to say traditional Christianity offered up an indifferent God, an Unmoved Mover.

As some of you may have noted from previous material I posted on Calvin, traditional notions such s predestination also poses real problems. Stated simply, we have no real freedom and yes, God is the author of al the terrible evil things that happen to us. Remember, as Calvin said,, murderers, larcenists, and other evildoers are the instruments of God by which he executes his harsh judgments upon us.



That is why I said the traditional Christian concept of God is one of his being a Ruthless Moralist, Ruling Caesar, and Unmoved Mover. And that is why I said contemporary Christian scholarship is giving this classical model a major Facelift.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I'll entertain your embittered derailment for at least a few posts. Obviously criteria are important. Let's take one: effect.

Cats produce effects. Hair, dander, furballs, waste, dead mice, kittens, etc. If I find all those things I can reason to the existence of a cat.

God produces effects--let's just focus on the more obvious effects. Religion, high percentages of religious persons (belief), charitable works and foundations, holy books, sacred places, monks, zealots, etc.
Those appear to be the result of there being believers in one or more gods.
 
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Sister_in_Christ

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No, it doesn't. Evolution explains how life evolved after it was here. It has nothing to say about the origin of life. You are demonstrably wrong here but you keep repeating this argument.



Yes. We can observe it.



Natural selection is the mechanism for how evolution works, so yes, it does demonstrate that evolution is a fact. It's clear you have no idea what you're talking about.
Natural selection is not the evolution that turned an amoeba into a bird. Natural selection is survival of the fittest. It basically says that if a climate or ecosystem is conducive to a particular trait, then the individuals of a species with that trait will most likely be the survivors.

We see it in viruses all the time. A virus infects a host. Say some type of mosaic virus among roses. First, we would see natural selection among roses. The roses unaffected, with a natural immunity, would survive. However, the roses affected would eventually die out. Then, we would see an adaptation o the virus. Only the virus with the natural ability to affect the surviving roses would have a host. Therefore, the previous strain would die out.

In this sense, evolution is obvious and observable.

However, this has never had the affect that the evolutionary theory claims: that eventually, the rose will evolve into a cherry tree in order to survive. Nature simply weeds out the inferior individuals of a species when a new threat is present.

This phenomenon is not evidence of the evolutionary theory, because it fits just as well with the creationist theory. Therefore, evidence of natural selection is not applicable to support only one side.

Evidence for the evolutionary theory would be a fossil in mid-transition evolution. It would be any real evidence that a monkey evolved into a person. Just being similar does not support this idea. An intelligent designer would have the same evidence.

So, since natural selection is not support only for evolution, and similarities are not support only for evolution, the only real evidence is what has only been theorized to have happened

Which, ultimately, means that evolution has the exact same facts as creation, and both sides interpret it differently.
 
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zippy2006

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Those appear to be the result of there being believers in one or more gods.

But that's the question: is abundant belief a dead end or is it indicative of something more? Or: are humans generally reliable truth-seeking instruments or not? When the hair-splitting is over, the world remains an enormously religious place. The atheist's quandry is found in a need to distance themselves from unreliable humanity. The atheist must hold that humans are generally unreliable--at least in religious matters--excepting themselves (or more likely, they will attempt to isolate each religious tradition by claiming that they have little or nothing in common). At this point the atheist has taken with his left hand what was given with the right; he cannot be a consistent fundamental skeptic. It is one of the strong commonalities that modern atheism shares with historical gnosticism.

But I'd rather not start a 3rd conversation with you that is off-topic for this thread. :)
 
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JonFromMinnesota

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Natural selection is not the evolution that turned an amoeba into a bird.

I never claimed that it did. No evolutionary biologist claims this either. An amoeba did not turn into a bird. You don't seem to understand how the tree of life works. I would appreciate it if you stopped putting words in my mouth.

Natural selection is survival of the fittest.

More like survival of the 'good enough' but close enough.

In this sense, evolution is obvious and observable.

Yep. And you strawman it in your next sentence.

However, this has never had the affect that the evolutionary theory claims: that eventually, the rose will evolve into a cherry tree in order to survive.

Evolution does not claim a rose will eventually become a cherry tree. Evolution does NOT have a goal in mind. Where are you getting this from? You're all over the place. In one sentence, you're on the right track and then you go completely off the rails.

This phenomenon is not evidence of the evolutionary theory, because it fits just as well with the creationist theory.

This sentence doesn't make any sense. You just said earlier that evolution is obvious and observable and now you're going to say but natural selection is not evidence because you think it fits with creation? What on earth are you talking about? Please explain your reasoning.

Evidence for the evolutionary theory would be a fossil in mid-transition evolution.

Tiktaalik Roseae says hello http://tiktaalik.uchicago.edu/meetTik.html

It would be any real evidence that a monkey evolved into a person.

Evolution takes places in populations over generations, not in individuals. Anyway, here is the hominid fossil record: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html

Just being similar does not support this idea.

You just said that a fossil record showing transitional species would be evidence for evolution. This means that we should share similar traits. So you're basically saying "This would be evidence, but it's not". I don't think even you know what you're talking about. You're all over the place.

Which, ultimately, means that evolution has the exact same facts as creation, and both sides interpret it differently.

Um no, creationism and evolution are not the same thing. Creationism has lost in court several times trying to get into the science classroom. It loses because it is nonsense and can be demonstrated to be nonsense. Judging by how you try to explain things, it seems like you are desperately trying to ignore the evidence but your rational mind isn't letting you, so you do mental gymnastics to try to keep your creation story. I will recommend two books for you. One by Richard Dawkins "The Greatest Show on Earth" and one by Francis Collins if you prefer to read a Christian author "The Language of God" This should help clear things up for you.
 
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Davian

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But that's the question: is abundant belief a dead end or is it indicative of something more? Or: are humans generally reliable truth-seeking instruments or not? When the hair-splitting is over, the world remains an enormously religious place.
Indeed, but not just religions:

"Souls, spirits, ghosts, gods, demons, angels, aliens, intelligent designers, government conspirators, and all manner of invisible agents with power and intention are believed to haunt our world and control our lives. Why?"

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/skeptic-agenticity/
The atheist's quandry is found in a need to distance themselves from unreliable humanity.
I perceive no such need. Now, if the subject changed to the need perceived by those believers to impose their untestable, unfalsifiable beliefs onto the government and educational systems of my country, I would see a need to object.
The atheist must hold that humans are generally unreliable--at least in religious matters
or things like Bigfoot, crop circles, and extraterrestrial aliens visiting Earth...
--excepting themselves (or more likely, they will attempt to isolate each religious tradition by claiming that they have little or nothing in common).
I certainly do not exempt myself. While I have never believed in gods, I did have run-in with crop circles, and there was the time (as an adult) I believed in Santa. I still get goosebumps.
At this point the atheist has taken with his left hand what was given with the right; he cannot be a consistent fundamental skeptic. It is one of the strong commonalities that modern atheism shares with historical gnosticism.
I guess I am not that kind of atheist.
But I'd rather not start a 3rd conversation with you that is off-topic for this thread. :)
I'm sure the OP doesn't mind. He derails his own threads often enough.;)
 
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Archaeopteryx

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But that's the question: is abundant belief a dead end or is it indicative of something more?
In what way does the abundance or longevity of a belief establish its truth?
Or: are humans generally reliable truth-seeking instruments or not?
Within limits. That's why we engage in scientific inquiry.
When the hair-splitting is over, the world remains an enormously religious place.
Yes, it does, with countless conflicting supernatural claims embodied in many diverse religious traditions.
The atheist's quandry is found in a need to distance themselves from unreliable humanity. The atheist must hold that humans are generally unreliable--at least in religious matters--excepting themselves (or more likely, they will attempt to isolate each religious tradition by claiming that they have little or nothing in common). At this point the atheist has taken with his left hand what was given with the right; he cannot be a consistent fundamental skeptic. It is one of the strong commonalities that modern atheism shares with historical gnosticism.
I'm not sure I understand what problem you are describing.
 
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zippy2006

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Or: are humans generally reliable truth-seeking instruments or not?
Within limits. That's why we engage in scientific inquiry.

Is scientific inquiry super-human? How could a lack in human truth-seeking ability be corrected by a purely human discipline such as scientific inquiry?

It is more fundamental than that, it is a question of fundamental disposition towards skepticism or reliability. Science can have no reliability if humans themselves aren't fundamentally reliable, as science is a mere tool of humans. A telescope won't do a blind man any good.

In order to safeguard his own reason, the atheist desperately wants to say that humans are fundamentally reliable, yet he often says just the opposite when it comes to religion. Despite the fact that this is often taken lightly or shrugged off, I find it significant.

Of course we could have the long discussion about whether God's relation to different religions and beliefs is more like that of the elephant to the blind men or that of blatant and unrelated contradiction, but I'm not much interested in that conversation at the moment.
 
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zippy2006

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I glanced at the thread while logged out, and I saw a ghost!

I guess I am not that kind of atheist.

Ah, but you are. You are quintessentially that kind of atheist. I don't know that I've ever written a post to you, but you are the one and only user on my ignore list. You were an obvious pick; no interaction needed.

Hope you weren't confused as to why I ignore your posts. It was only remotely intentional. I can't even see them! :wave:
 
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Davian

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I glanced at the thread while logged out, and I saw a ghost!

Ah, but you are. You are quintessentially that kind of atheist.
How so?
I don't know that I've ever written a post to you, but you are the one and only user on my ignore list. You were an obvious pick; no interaction needed.

Hope you weren't confused as to why I ignore your posts. It was only remotely intentional. I can't even see them! :wave:
No worries. My responses are not so much for you as for those, like myself, that lurk on this site for some time before joining in, and for my teenage children, who often observe these posts over my shoulder. :)
 
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