Pew rents

[Petros2015]

What if a rich and mischievous millionaire purchases all the pews to keep the church empty?

 

[prodromos]

What if a rich and mischievous millionaire purchases all the pews to keep the church empty?

He would have to employ people to occupy the pews

 

[bbbbbbb]

He would have to employ people to occupy the pews

Actually, that scenario has already been played out. John D. Rockefeller was a devout Baptist who deeply believed in tithing his income to God. His problem was that no denomination would accept his ill-gotten money because of the terrible publicity it would engender. As a result, he built and endowed Riverside Church in New York City as well as the Rockefeller Chapel on the campus of the University of Chicago (also heavily endowed by Mr. Rockefeller). With or without congregations both buildings are beautifully maintained.

 

[prodromos]

Actually, that scenario has already been played out. John D. Rockefeller was a devout Baptist who deeply believed in tithing his income to God. His problem was that no denomination would accept his ill-gotten money because of the terrible publicity it would engender. As a result, he built and endowed Riverside Church in New York City as well as the Rockefeller Chapel on the campus of the University of Chicago (also heavily endowed by Mr. Rockefeller). With or without congregations both buildings are beautifully maintained.

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He paid people to sit in the pews?

 

[RaymondG]

Actually, that scenario has already been played out. John D. Rockefeller was a devout Baptist who deeply believed in tithing his income to God. His problem was that no denomination would accept his ill-gotten money because of the terrible publicity it would engender. As a result, he built and endowed Riverside Church in New York City as well as the Rockefeller Chapel on the campus of the University of Chicago (also heavily endowed by Mr. Rockefeller). With or without congregations both buildings are beautifully maintained.

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I've always been amazed by the beauty of these buildings......Very easy to believe that God dwells in them.

 

[RaymondG]

What if a rich and mischievous millionaire purchases all the pews to keep the church empty?

There would be a wait list.....and the seat would be filled if the first buyer was 15minutes late. Those in the back would be moved to the front, like in arenas....to give the appearance of being full for the cameras that might be there.

 

[bbbbbbb]

He paid people to sit in the pews?

Almost, but not quite. At the University of Chicago the students were encouraged to attend chapel services. I suppose at the beginning such services might have been mandatory as they were in all colleges and universities beginning in the nineteenth century.

In New York City he funded a large staff, including a full choir, for his church. In and of itself the choir is as large as many churches in the United States.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I've always been amazed by the beauty of these buildings......Very easy to believe that God dwells in them.

Yes, they are wonderful works of architecture. In Catholic theology, especially during the Counter Reformation tremendous churches were erected based on the idea that when one enters the church one is encountering God and entering heaven, or, at least, a close proximity of it.

 

[The Liturgist]

Do you think it better to have a preacher harangue his congregation to be more forthcoming with their tithes?

When the alternative is ethically akin to simony, yes. Also, consider Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches and in antiquity, the Roman church, did not have pews. Pews themselves are arguably an aberration, and pew rents are a comment on how bad things had become in the 17th century churches of northwestern Europe.

 

[bbbbbbb]

When the alternative is ethically akin to simony, yes. Also, consider Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches and in antiquity, the Roman church, did not have pews. Pews themselves are arguably an aberration, and pew rents are a comment on how bad things had become in the 17th century churches of northwestern Europe.

Thank you for the excellent historical insight. The Church of England struggled for a long time with its hierarchical organization. In the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries it became somewhat of a scandal when it was uncovered that various clergy had been profiting mightily from parishes they never bothered to visit, much less live in. To get around it they frequently hired vicars at nominal wages to do the work for them while they reaped the profits from various land holdings and investments.

And, as well, in central Europe there were the prince bishops who were immensely wealthy, although not from simony or pew rents.

 

[The Liturgist]

Thank you for the excellent historical insight. The Church of England struggled for a long time with its hierarchical organization. In the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries it became somewhat of a scandal when it was uncovered that various clergy had been profiting mightily from parishes they never bothered to visit, much less live in. To get around it they frequently hired vicars at nominal wages to do the work for them while they reaped the profits from various land holdings and investments.

And, as well, in central Europe there were the prince bishops who were immensely wealthy, although not from simony or pew rents.

Indeed, the abuse of benefices was a great scandal in the 18th century.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Indeed, the abuse of benefices was a great scandal in the 18th century.

The brighter side is that, along with other such cultural scandals as the plague of cheap gin, the ground was laid for the evangelical preaching of men such as Whitefield and Wesley. The darker the night, the brighter the morning, as someone once observed.

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

Do you think it better to have a preacher harangue his congregation to be more forthcoming with their tithes?

IMHO a preacher is not even supposed to user the word 'tithes' in this day and age when it comes to giving to your local congregation. 'Tithing' is an OT term used in the context of Mosaic Law for Israel. Nowhere in the NT do you find a rule for Gentile believers to give 10% of their income to their local congregation.

Having said that; I believe ALL our assets and resources belong to God; we are just stewards of it in this life. So in short: I would be very wary of any preacher trying to talk his audience in giving 10% to the church (of which he himself would be a recipient). The very word 'tithe' is a red flag when used today. But please yes, use ALL of your resources for God's Kingdom (but that's not necessarily your local church).

 

[bbbbbbb]

IMHO a preacher is not even supposed to user the word 'tithes' in this day and age when it comes to giving to your local congregation. 'Tithing' is an OT term used in the context of Mosaic Law for Israel. Nowhere in the NT do you find a rule for Gentile believers to give 10% of their income to their local congregation.

Having said that; I believe ALL our assets and resources belong to God; we are just stewards of it in this life. So in short: I would be very wary of any preacher trying to talk his audience in giving 10% to the church (of which he himself would be a recipient). The very word 'tithe' is a red flag when used today. But please yes, use ALL of your resources for God's Kingdom (but that's not necessarily your local church).

To rephrase the question, Do you think it is a better option to have a preacher harangue his congregation into giving all of their resources to his church?

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

To rephrase the question, Do you think it is a better option to have a preacher harangue his congregation into giving all of their resources to his church?

If the local church is struggling with its finances (and its expenses are transparent and modest), AND the preacher has reason to believe a significant part of his congregation is leading a fairly lavish lifestyle - I would be perfectly happy with a preacher reminding his audience of their responsibilities.

Any local church that has a legitimate financial need for which its members are responsible may communicate so to its members. In reality however this call for more finances can be abused quickly if:
- the churches expenses are rising/substantial, but its members have no say over the budget
- the preacher is calling for more finances and he/she himself has a higher salary than the mean income of its member families (=credibility problems)
- the church needs more finances because its goal is to become BIGGER

Usually I find the call to give more to the Kingdom most credible and fruitful if it's call to give to OTHER Christian causes (but not the church itself). Because only this call is truly void of any self-interest.

 

[bbbbbbb]

If the local church is struggling with its finances (and its expenses are transparent and modest), AND the preacher has reason to believe a significant part of his congregation is leading a fairly lavish lifestyle - I would be perfectly happy with a preacher reminding his audience of their responsibilities.

Any local church that has a legitimate financial need for which its members are responsible may communicate so to its members. In reality however this call for more finances can be abused quickly if:
- the churches expenses are rising/substantial, but its members have no say over the budget
- the preacher is calling for more finances and he/she himself has a higher salary than the mean income of its member families (=credibility problems)
- the church needs more finances because its goal is to become BIGGER

Usually I find the call to give more to the Kingdom most credible and fruitful if it's call to give to OTHER Christian causes (but not the church itself). Because only this call is truly void of any self-interest.

If the goal of a church is not to grow (become bigger) is it, then, expected to shrink? That would lessen the need for additional finances, as has been the recent case in many churches.

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

If the goal of a church is not to grow (become bigger) is it, then, expected to shrink? That would lessen the need for additional finances, as has been the recent case in many churches.

Good point - in my experience whenever a church explicitly chases growth in numbers (people, seats, big building) as a target in themselves; a slippery slope starts and problems abound.

A church should target spiritual growth and obedience for its congregation; growth in numbers may be God's plan afterwards, but maybe not. Growth in attendance may be a result of a healthy church, but should not be our goal, that is in God's hands.

I know places/churches where situation/demographics-wise growth in member/attendance numbers is close to impossible, but where the church is very very fruitful and spiritual; doing mission, making converts and sending people on their way.

Whenever church meetings start to revolve around either a Building, Budgets or Bums (seats occupied) it is in danger of getting into Cathedral/Empire building.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Good point - in my experience whenever a church explicitly chases growth in numbers (people, seats, big building) as a target in themselves; a slippery slope starts and problems abound.

A church should target spiritual growth and obedience for its congregation; growth in numbers may be God's plan afterwards, but maybe not. Growth in attendance may be a result of a healthy church, but should not be our goal, that is in God's hands.

I know places/churches where situation/demographics-wise growth in member/attendance numbers is close to impossible, but where the church is very very fruitful and spiritual; doing mission, making converts and sending people on their way.

Whenever church meetings start to revolve around either a Building, Budgets or Bums (seats occupied) it is in danger of getting into Cathedral/Empire building.

Sadly, I have spent most of my Christian life in churches that sub-consciously use a general disdain of "church growth" and its negative manifestations to cover their secret intent to remain an exclusive Christian club. One might say that they reject the three B's in favor of three C's - Calvinist Christian Club.

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

Sadly, I have spent most of my Christian life in churches that sub-consciously use a general disdain of "church growth" and its negative manifestations to cover their secret intent to remain an exclusive Christian club. One might say that they reject the three B's in favor of three C's - Calvinist Christian Club.

That's sad to hear - God the Father & Jesus's invitation is for everyone; our heart should go out to our neighbour in the widest sense. Predestination as a theological concept usually is not very productive when it comes to sharing the Good News

 

[bbbbbbb]

That's sad to hear - God the Father & Jesus's invitation is for everyone; our heart should go out to our neighbour in the widest sense. Predestination as a theological concept usually is not very productive when it comes to sharing the Good News

Probably one of the greatest endemic flaws to American Christianity is the fundamental belief that if people throw money at the church, all will be well. Hire a pastor and expect him to live the Christian life for you and write generous checks. Regularly attend the Sunday morning services and, if you are really spiritual, you might also get engaged in the music ministry. God will smile on you. You will prosper and your church will flourish.