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Persons in creation pre-existing conception?

GoldenKingGaze

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I'm using the word (charge/account/impute to) Scripture uses (Heb: chasab, Ge 15:6; Gr: logizomai, Ro 4:3) in this regard in the case of Abraham.
From Biblehub:

chashab: To think, plan, reckon, account, consider, devise, esteem
Original Word: חָשַׁב
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: chashab
Pronunciation: khaw-shab'
Phonetic Spelling: (khaw-shab')
KJV: (make) account (of), conceive, consider, count, cunning (man, work, workman), devise, esteem, find out, forecast, hold, imagine, impute, invent, be like, mean, purpose, reckon(-ing be made), regard, think
NASB: considered, devise, reckoned, skillful workman, devised, regarded, calculate
Word Origin: [a primitive root]

1. (properly) to plait or interpenetrate, i.e. (literally) to weave or (gen.) to fabricate
2. (figuratively) to plot or contrive (usually in a malicious sense)
3. hence (from the mental effort) to think, regard, value, compute

logizomai: To reckon, to consider, to account, to think, to impute.
Original Word: λογίζομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: logizomai
Pronunciation: lo-GHEE-zom-ahee
Phonetic Spelling: (log-id'-zom-ahee)
KJV: conclude, (ac-)count (of), + despise, esteem, impute, lay, number, reason, reckon, suppose, think (on)
NASB: credited, consider, regard, regarded, take into account, considered, numbered
Word Origin: [middle voice from G3056 (λόγος - word)]

1. to take an inventory, i.e. estimate
{literally or figuratively}
End Biblehub.

"Interpenetrate" is important! We can hear the Gospel and believe and repent, then we are forgiven, and receive grace, sprinkled with the blood for a clear conscience and if not already a clean heart. Hebrews 10:22. The sacred blood infuses righteousness into us. Not the idea of mere reckoning or casting a shadow. The Spirit touched the great deep and in effect then was the change. Genesis 1:2

The word, faith, conviction, receive by faith, soften to it and there is infusion of righteousness. Similarly by faith and the sacred blood applied.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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In the Bible, the word "flesh" is used for the human body and for the sinful nature. But ones interpret this to mean the physical flesh is the problem. My opinion is there is our spiritual level of "flesh". It means whatever in us is capable of sinning, meaning at our spiritual level. But yes we have ones who blame the physical flesh for our sin problems :)

But it is not our physical DNA that passes on the spiritual problem of sin, I offer. But there is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience," our Apostle Paul mentions in Ephesians 2:2. My opinion is that parents with this disobedient spirit can infect their conceived children, right from conception. And this is why children very young already can be so about their own selves and able to lie and scream for their own way, versus having a natural tendency to share and care in love as family.

Below, I have quoted how Clare does not at all agree with this.

It seems we have three theories for how sin moves along through the family line. You seem to say through the physical flesh, which I do not blame. And I say the infection of Satan's spirit passes on right with conception. And Clare seems to be saying it is "imputed", which can mean we are born with the record.

Blaming the flesh?? lolololololololol "The flesh did it." It can feel like the flesh is getting us to sin, in my experience; however, I would say the real cause is deeper.

Well, charging me with what I am not guilty of doing, myself . . . might not be . . . just. But if Satan's evil spirit (Ephesians 2:2) passes on to me and infects me with selfishness . . . now it is my selfishness, my problem, and I am guilty.
Romans 7:17-23, and Paul explains that sin is in the flesh, but is not the flesh. Early gnostic heretis thought matter was evil, but the apostles and Paul explained that it was an error. Jesus and John the baptist were not sons of disobedience, John was filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb. But John had a sinful nature. Jesus had a real body with no sin. He was given a human like nature.
 
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Clare73

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From Biblehub:
chashab: To think, plan, reckon, account, consider, devise, esteem
Original Word: חָשַׁב
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: chashab
Pronunciation: khaw-shab'
Phonetic Spelling: (khaw-shab')
KJV: (make) account (of), conceive, consider, count, cunning (man, work, workman), devise, esteem, find out, forecast, hold, imagine, impute, invent, be like, mean, purpose, reckon(-ing be made), regard, think
NASB: considered, devise, reckoned, skillful workman, devised, regarded, calculate
Word Origin: [a primitive root]
1. (properly) to plait or interpenetrate, i.e. (literally) to weave or (gen.) to fabricate
2. (figuratively) to plot or contrive (usually in a malicious sense)
3. hence (from the mental effort) to think, regard, value, compute
logizomai: To reckon, to consider, to account, to think, to impute.
Original Word: λογίζομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: logizomai
Pronunciation: lo-GHEE-zom-ahee
Phonetic Spelling: (log-id'-zom-ahee)
KJV: conclude, (ac-)count (of), + despise, esteem, impute, lay, number, reason, reckon, suppose, think (on)
NASB: credited, consider, regard, regarded, take into account, considered, numbered
Word Origin: [middle voice from G3056 (λόγος - word)]

1. to take an inventory, i.e. estimate
{literally or figuratively}
End Biblehub.

"Interpenetrate" is important!
The Biblial usage of "impute" is not to "interpenetrate."

"Impute" is "to charge, account, reckon to". . .as God charged, accounted, reckoned righteousness to Abraham (Ge 15:6) because of his faith (in the promise, Ge 15:5, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16) not because of his moral performance. . .just as God reckons us righteous because of our faith in Jesus Christ (Eph 2:8-9).
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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The Biblial usage of "impute" is not to "interpenetrate."

"Impute" is "to charge, account, reckon to". . .as God charged, accounted, reckoned righteousness to Abraham (Ge 15:6) because of his faith (in the promise, Ge 15:5, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16) not because of his moral performance. . .just as God reckons us righteous because of our faith in Jesus Christ (Eph 2:8-9).
God's word and Spirit work together. Genesis 1:2 and the Spirit works creation with the spoken word. Genesis 6:3 and the Spirit convicts and guides men... Moses talks with Pharaoh later and Pharaoh responds to the Spirit by sadly hardening his heart.

For Abraham it was not moral performance but the Word and the Spirit. Then good works of obedience came. And faith works by love. Galatians 5:6

It is hard to read off paper and act accordingly.

So Paul writes in Galatians 3:1-15.

Justification by Faith​

3 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you [a]that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed [b]among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so [c]many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

The Law Brings a Curse​

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is [d]justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The Changeless Promise​

15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. NKJV.

Paul here aligns Abraham's type of faith with the Spirit, also in the referring to Genesis.

The blood of Jesus is powerful and sacred like the Spirit, not annulled, it gives life. The covenant blood, and living water, for always and it's by faith or there is no sustained and perpetuated righteousness.

Acts 2:37. Hearing God's word through Peter, they were cut to the heart and asked for instruction and were given it and repented. The Spirit was there. What was He doing?

So I see infusion taking place, like chocolate stirred into milk.

Sin is in the flesh and we need the Spirit by faith. We are conceived, but did we exist before in human spirit form as sons and daughters of God?
 
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Clare73

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God's word and Spirit work together. Genesis 1:2 and the Spirit works creation with the spoken word. Genesis 6:3 and the Spirit convicts and guides men... Moses talks with Pharaoh later and Pharaoh responds to the Spirit by sadly hardening his heart.
For Abraham it was not moral performance but the Word and the Spirit. Then good works of obedience came. And faith works by love. Galatians 5:6
It is hard to read off paper and act accordingly.
So Paul writes in Galatians 3:1-15.

Justification by Faith​

3 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you [a]that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed [b]among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so [c]many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

The Law Brings a Curse​

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is [d]justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The Changeless Promise​

15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. NKJV.

Paul here aligns Abraham's type of faith with the Spirit, also in the referring to Genesis.

The blood of Jesus is powerful and sacred like the Spirit, not annulled, it gives life. The covenant blood, and living water, for always and it's by faith or there is no sustained and perpetuated righteousness.

Acts 2:37. Hearing God's word through Peter, they were cut to the heart and asked for instruction and were given it and repented. The Spirit was there. What was He doing?

So I see infusion taking place, like chocolate stirred into milk.
Sin is in the flesh and we need the Spirit by faith. We are conceived, but did we exist before in human spirit form as sons and daughters of God?
We have no warrant from Scripture to think that we did.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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We have no warrant from Scripture to think that we did.
The Bible is not a complete book covering all matters. Genesis is not a science book. The Bible is quiet and feint on so many things. It seems Jesus saying only He came down from Heaven means we did not.

God formed us in the womb, literally creating us there and then or unfurling us into our bodies? Think of God's equity and the forming of a prostitutes baby over nine months with God's Spirit staying with her and doing the creative work. Having chosen the time and place for the infant to be born that it may reach out to apprehend God. Biblegateway, NKJV Acts 17.
25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one [j]blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’

Psalm 139 NKJV.

13 For You formed my inward parts;
You [f]covered me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will praise You, for [g]I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
15 My [h]frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.

God formed his body with DNA and his mother's blood. Unfurling the bound up spirit with the fetal body growth.

NKJV Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

NKJV Isaiah 42:5
Thus says God the Lord,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it,
Who gives breath to the people on it,
And spirit to those who walk on it:

Our hearts are more than breath in a body, more than a fire in our mitochondria. Our hearts are eternal, they reason.

NKJV 2 Corinthians 5.
5 For we know that if our earthly [a]house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our [b]habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as [c]a guarantee.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

The Judgment Seat of Christ​

9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.

NKJV Luke 5.
21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

22 But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, He answered and said to them, “Why are you reasoning in your hearts?

Our hearts of our spirits from His breath contain the Spirit of God, reason, have conscience and love...
Job speaks of morning stars and sons of times long ago before the Earth was made. Who are these sons and daughters?

NKJV Job 38:7
When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

NKJV Ecclesiates 12.
6 Remember your Creator before the silver cord is [b]loosed,
Or the golden bowl is broken,
Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain,
Or the wheel broken at the well.
7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

People in NDEs mention the silver cord, and in creation Adam was made of clay and breath, but the Spirit returns to God.

NKJV Ephesians 1.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

GNT Wisdom 8:19-20
19 I had a pleasant personality even as a child. I had been fortunate enough to receive a good soul, or rather, I was given a sound body to live in because I was already good.

YLT Zechariah 12:1
12 The burden of a word of Jehovah on Israel. An affirmation of Jehovah, Stretching out heaven, and founding earth, And forming the spirit of man in his midst.

YLT Jeremiah 1:5
5 `Before I form thee in the belly, I have known thee; and before thou comest forth from the womb I have separated thee, a prophet to nations I have made thee.'

Jeremiah seems to have existed before conception for God to have known him rather than have foreseen or foreknown him.

Looking at the formation of spirit, heart, that has faith and receives the Spirit of God. It is more than a brief breath out but ancient and unfurling into this life with a commission.

YLT Psalm 24.
3 Who goeth up into the hill of Jehovah? And who riseth up in His holy place?

4 The clean of hands, and pure of heart, Who hath not lifted up to vanity his soul, Nor hath sworn to deceit.

5 He beareth away a blessing from Jehovah, Righteousness from the God of his salvation.

6 This [is] a generation of those seeking Him. Seeking Thy face, O Jacob! Selah.

7 Lift up, O gates, your heads, And be lifted up, O doors age-during, And come in doth the king of glory!

8 Who [is] this -- `the king of glory?' Jehovah -- strong and mighty, Jehovah, the mighty in battle.

9 Lift up, O gates, your heads, And be lifted up, O doors age-during, And come in doth the king of glory!

10 Who [is] He -- this `king of glory?' Jehovah of hosts -- He [is] the king of glory! Selah.

Christ Jesus is the King of Glory, our gates are ancient. Wooden gates are never ancient.

  • Origen: the soul must open its gates for Christ to reign.
  • Augustine: “Lift up your heads, you gates — you who are lifted up by confession and faith, that Christ may enter your hearts.”
  • Cyril: the “ancient gates” are the mind’s faculties, long closed by sin, now opened to the Redeemer.

I am persuaded to see these qualities in our human spirits our hearts, by stories of people who have returned to life after meeting Jesus and their angels of light. They recall life before conception and see their silver cords in their NDEs. In the end all our beliefs will be tested by us, when we see the reality, our goal of discerning while on Earth.
 
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Clare73

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The Bible is not a complete book covering all matters.
It is our only authority for spiritual matters.

And where it makes an end to teaching, we make an end to learning.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Not all persons can accept that idea. There are philosophers, mystics and orthodox. The scriptures are a summary and some issues are only touched upon. It invites questions. So Thomas Aquinas in Catholic history sought to make a Christian philosophy bridging with the Greek philosophers. And Aquinas accepted speculative theology. Philosophers speculate and theorise and test...

Apart from that, God can give a person a revelation of truths as with Abraham and Moses... but they know it but cannot well express it to others like we have Bible revelations. It is personal for them, and in the end, we all have them, when we die and see the light of life and meet God. And one in twenty five people have an NDE, so someone you know.

And I did quote scripture above. What do you think of my quotes?

I am supposing that sons of God did not see God's face but rejoiced with the morning stars revelation of God.
 
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Tom8907

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From Scripture, philosophy and experiences like those of near death survivors,

Scripture does not say that.

We are not to look to earthly philosophy or near death experiences likely caused by the brain as a source of revelation.

God certainly knew us since eternity past but that does not mean we physically existed.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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It is our only authority for spiritual matters.

And where it makes an end to teaching, we make an end to learning.

Scripture does not say that.

We are not to look to earthly philosophy or near death experiences likely caused by the brain as a source of revelation.

God certainly knew us since eternity past but that does not mean we physically existed.
Scripture contains wisdom books and I made quotes from several scriptures.

Some people cannot accept simple orthodox theology but think, so St Thomas Aquinas is a Dr of the Roman Catholic church. A Christian philosopher. This forum section is for philosophy.

Near death experiences contain blind testable accounts of seeing surgery from the ceiling. Some see the pains of Hell but many see the light of life and meet Jesus, angels and see a life review, with empathy and conscience for all actions they did. They may meet their ancestors in paradise, not hallucinations, but commonly from person to person the same commonalities. It has to happen to all of us one day.

I am supposing there is truth to spiritual existence before conception.
 
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Clare73

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Not all persons can accept that idea. There are philosophers, mystics and orthodox. The scriptures are a summary and some issues are only touched upon. It invites questions. So Thomas Aquinas in Catholic history sought to make a Christian philosophy bridging with the Greek philosophers. And Aquinas accepted speculative theology.
Acquinas did not present speculative theology as divine truth.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Acquinas did not present speculative theology as divine truth.
Divine truth can mean Christian scripture explaining scripture, exegesis... but finding absolute truth takes more. Scripture in context, plus the Holy Spirit revealing truth, and one's conscience aligned and this can produce very sure truth, maybe an absolute truth.

I have not only been speculating but provided a collection of related scriptures and quoted some in length with the surrounding verses. And one verse from the apocrypha. As time went on, after Malachi or at that time, the Jews began to speak of the "Kingdom of God" rule to come. All the scriptures matter. It is not Pseudopigrypha.

I'd like to know what you fellows think of my Bible quotes and the early fathers' quotes.

And I'd like to keep on typing up philosophy matters.
 
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