Personal Responsibility

[Adriac]

Ultimately, personal responsibility should be in the form of birth control. I strongly believe that greater birth control education and access would work wonders for reducing abortions. My greatest issue with many abortions is the "oops, I'm pregnant, better go to the clinic" mentality. The women who end up getting multiple abortions really get to me. Abortion as birth control is what I take issues with, not abortion overall.

At the same time, those are (I'll wager) precisely the same women who are very unlikely to abstain, and whom you would definitely not want raising children. What can you do?

Okay, that's rhetorical, since you more or less answered it in your post. Just throwing it out there

 

[MemeBuster]

Abortion. I abhore the practice, and that's why I'm pro-life.

Opposing abortion is only half of it. You should now try to do something to help all those children who were not aborted but now are being tormented in the foster homes or whose parents treat them like a burden. Children, many of whom will grow up with lots of problems and live miserable lives. Children who because they had bad parents ended up "refusing your god's sacrifice" and therefore were damned to eternal suffering.

You should be trying to adopt as many children as you can, otherwise you may seem like you are full of hot air.

Opposing abortion is only half of it, now let's walk the walk too and take some personal responsibility for what you believe.


MB.

 

[Yusuf Evans]

 

[TricksterWolf]

A woman isn't a woman unless she can have an abortion

That's pretty silly. I've never heard that argument before. Some women are unable to have children at all, that doesn't make them any less women.

However, only a maximum of 4% of all abortions performed are those outside of convenience. That means that 96% of the time, a woman(or girl) gets an abortion to get of of the personal responsibility of being a mother.

Where exactly are these numbers coming from?

I think "convenience" is a convenient term for dismissing the complexity of the decision that many women face.

Now, you have two options in regards to sex: Either a)wrap it(or make the partner wrap it), or b) don't have sex at all. Using the easy way out is a trait that goes on with you in life. To Christians who support abortions, I hope your ready to answer to the Lord for your support of such practices. The unsaved are already going to answer to the Lord for their refusal of his sacrifice.

I used to be strongly pro-life. But for the past 12 or 13 years I've been equivocal on this topic, and here's why...

I once had a friend who lost her virginity when she was 17 to her boyfriend, when he date-raped her. She had very strict (and wealthy, turned out) parents who would have thrown her out on the street if they had discovered she was pregnant. She couldn't get an abortion without notifying them because of state law. So she had her "boyfriend" punch her in the stomach as hard as he could to terminate the pregnancy.

Yes, abortion is an ethical quagmire. Yes, in a perfect world, every pregnancy would be a joy, and we wouldn't need abortion. Well, this isn't a perfect world. Not allowing any access to abortion essentially allows men to rape women and hold their bodies hostage for nine months. There has to be a compromise to protect a woman's right to her body while still valuing the sanctity of human life.

Trickster

 

[fillerbunny]

Abortion. I abhore the practice, and that's why I'm pro-life.

Incidentally, I abhor the practice, too. However, I also abhor (to an even greater extent) the government's stripping a woman of her ability to choose whether or not she wishes to carry an unwanted/unplanned pregnancy to term. I believe it is neither my place nor anyone else's to dictate what another woman ought to do with her body. This is why I am pro-choice.

The term 'pro-abortionist', as you used earlier in this thread is nothing but a sensationalized, inflammatory misnomer. I've yet to meet anyone who was genuinely 'pro-abortion'. Just because someone supports a woman's right to chose doesn't mean that they like abortion. It doesn't mean they would ever consider having one. It simply means they support a woman's right to choose.

(Incidentally, 'pro-life' is also a misnomer. People who support denying a woman the right to choose aren't 'pro-life', they're anti-abortion.)

The cases for abortion are it's a woman's right. A woman isn't a woman unless she can have an abortion, etc.... However, only a maximum of 4% of all abortions performed are those outside of convenience. That means that 96% of the time, a woman(or girl) gets an abortion to get of of the personal responsibility of being a mother.

It's unfortunate that these women didn't have access to better information on how to prevent their unwanted pregnancies- or, if they did have access to such information, that they didn't have the foresight to use it. However, I firmly believe that their right to abort said pregnancy (if they so desire) shouldn't hinge on whether or not I happen to find their reasons legitimate enough for my personal liking.

I used to be pro-choice, and fully supported abortions. That all changed once we had my first born. My wife and I were dating at the time, and I had plans to get out of the Marine Corps to join the U.S. Marshals. She came up pregnant, and we agreed to get an abortion. We got to the doctor's office and saw the picture of my son when he was only 6 weeks old in the womb. From then on, I vowed to never again support abortion as a matter of convenience for anyone.

In your case, choosing to carry the pregnancy to term was the right choice. You had the right to make that choice. You do not have the right to foist that choice on others.

Now, you have two options in regards to sex: Either a)wrap it(or make the partner wrap it), or b) don't have sex at all.

Abstinence isn't always an option (what about married couples who desire no children?), and 'wrapping it' doesn't always work. There is no form of birth control that is 100% effective- heck, I know a couple who managed to conceive their daughter without actually having sex. Rape happens. These cases may be the minority. They may be exceptions to the rule. However, they all serve as a reminder that a flip, simplistic 'wrap it or don't have sex' is not enough to ensure that an unwanted pregnancy isn't going to occur.

Using the easy way out is a trait that goes on with you in life. To Christians who support abortions, I hope your ready to answer to the Lord for your support of such practices. The unsaved are already going to answer to the Lord for their refusal of his sacrifice.

I'm questioning why it was necessary to slip that remark about 'the unsaved' in there..

 

[TricksterWolf]

Rape happens. These cases may be the minority. They may be exceptions to the rule. However, they all serve as a reminder that a flip, simplistic 'wrap it or don't have sex' is not enough to ensure that an unwanted pregnancy isn't going to occur.

One point that hasn't been brought up yet: it's not always easy or possible to prove that a woman has been raped. Violent rape is obvious medically for a short time afterwards, but what if a woman is afraid to resist at all? Rape doesn't always leave signs. Saying "abortion only if you can prove you've been raped" would leave a lot of rape victims unable to obtain abortions, and leave all the power in the hands of the rapist (particularly for date-rape or spousal-rape, which are common forms of rape).

So I think one of the reasons abortion on-demand may be seen as ethical for a short time after pregnancy is to help safeguard the well-being of rape victims, if only because rape is often difficult to show and counsel.

Trickster

 

[TheMissus]

I'm not necessarily suggesting this, but IF abortion ever was made illegal, perhaps exceptions could be made for women who have reported their rapes. If the woman has come forward and said she was raped, even if she doesn't press charges, abortion could (theoretically) be prescribed by a doctor.

Of course, with Plan B, it's a moot point in my mind. And the hypothetical scenario of abortion no longer being legal is so unlikely that it's not worth worrying about.

 

[SallyNow]

Okay, let us, for a minute, take out some of the more tragic reasons for an abortion: ectopic pregnancy, rape, incest, health of the mother, fetal viability.

What are we left with? Women who made a choice to have sex, who got pregnant, and who don't want to deal with it, who don't want to go for an adoption, who don't want to keep the child. Rather irresponsible women. But, some women were responsible, but perhaps the methods failed. Some women may have gotten pregnant and had their husbands left them, either by death or divorce.

Abortion should be a last resort, but needs to be here. The other methods to deal with an unwanted pregnancy should be front and centre, from adoption to social support, high-quality educational opportunities to health care, for all, not just the wealthy or reasonably well-off. Even welfare should be supported, so that a new mother does not have to put her 3 month old baby in daycare so soon.

Families should help those women in thier lives who find themselves with an unwanted pregancy, and communities should band together to make sure that there are lots of extracurricular activities and support for children who were not aborted.

Abortion can once again become a last resort in time of great tragedy, rather than a tragedy itself. Social aims just need to change...less objections to universal health care, more support for welfare-to-school-to-work programs, more affordable colleges, universities and trade schools. A focus on quality public education.

Some countries have these things, and they actually do work. Maybe other countries should start taking a look.

While we're on the topic of personal responsibility, what about the responsibility of the male to use a condom? What about the responsibility of the male to take care of the child he has chosen to create? What about the responibility of hte male to support and love the mother of his child?

 

[TricksterWolf]

I'm not necessarily suggesting this, but IF abortion ever was made illegal, perhaps exceptions could be made for women who have reported their rapes. If the woman has come forward and said she was raped, even if she doesn't press charges, abortion could (theoretically) be prescribed by a doctor.

Of course, with Plan B, it's a moot point in my mind. And the hypothetical scenario of abortion no longer being legal is so unlikely that it's not worth worrying about.

But then women in difficult situations (potential for being divorced and/or kicked out of home for one, as many women don't have the authority as decision makers in their livelihood) would simply claim that they were raped. And if someone did a paternity test, the wrong man might end up standing trial for it...

Trickster

 

[CSmrw]

It's all fine and good, but anything other than the woman's right to her own body, no matter what, stands between us and liberty. Liberty must win or America is a sham.

 

[Konkurrent]

But then women in difficult situations (potential for being divorced and/or kicked out of home for one, as many women don't have the authority as decision makers in their livelihood) would simply claim that they were raped. And if someone did a paternity test, the wrong man might end up standing trial for it...

Trickster

That'd be like claiming you were beaten up so you could get some asprin.

It's an over-the-counter medication. You don't need an excuse to take it. It's perfectly legal to buy and take Plan B regardless of whether you've been raped, think you might get pregnant, or even have any reason to believe it's possible. (It's 100% legal to take it when you're not even having sex, if you just want to waste some money.)

 

[TricksterWolf]

That'd be like claiming you were beaten up so you could get some asprin.

It's an over-the-counter medication. You don't need an excuse to take it. It's perfectly legal to buy and take Plan B regardless of whether you've been raped, think you might get pregnant, or even have any reason to believe it's possible. (It's 100% legal to take it when you're not even having sex, if you just want to waste some money.)

1) That's only been true recently in the States (and most of us know why, though this is another issue).

2) A lot of women who have been raped are in denial about the entire event, and probably aren't thinking clearly enough to take Plan B until it's too late.

Trickster

 

[gwenmead]

Something the abortion debate has gotten me thinking about is the reality that we now live in a time when a woman has a great deal of control over whether or not she wants to be pregnant.

Birth control makes it possible to prevent a pregnancy, abortion makes it possible to end an unwanted one. Women can have sex without having to risk becoming pregnant from it (or can reduce the possibility of pregnancy down to a point where it's almost a non-issue). Women can now be as free sexually as men have been able to be, historically. We can say no to pregnancy - and we can say no to motherhood, by extension - and we don't have to say "no" to sex in order to avoid these things.

I get the feeling that bothers people. Do we couch arguments about abortion in terms of life or choice as a way of avoiding what abortion helps make possible: women's sexual freedom? Is the pro-life stance a disguised appeal to traditional "maternal instinct"? Is the pro-choice stance a ticket to the downfall of human morality as it's been practiced for however long - because it enables women to be as promiscuous as men?

Note that I don't necessarily have a firm personal conviction about the above thoughts or questions, I'm just throwing them out there as food for thought.

I'll start a new thread on the relationship between women's sexuality and abortion, if there's interest in the topic.

 

[flicka]

There is no correlation between being biologically ready for sex and being ready to carry, deliver and care for a child. NONE. We have these bodies that are sex ready at a young age so to say a that someone who isn't ready to have a child shouldn't be having sex is ridiculous. What it comes down to is that people don't share the same ideas about sex morally speaking, so to flippantly say 'just don't do it' isn't going to change what IS AND WHAT ALWAYS HAS BEEN. People will have sex regardless of anyone elses views on the subject.

Another thing, people don't share the same ideas about life either. Not everyone seeing a cuddly baby on a 6 week sonogram so not everyone is going to see abortion as killing a baby. When you can't even agree on whats in front of you it's impossible to expect people to act according to your personal wishes.

 

[Konkurrent]

1) That's only been true recently in the States (and most of us know why, though this is another issue).

I'll take "Things that show the USDA is a foot-dragging piece of poo" for a thousand, Alex.

2) A lot of women who have been raped are in denial about the entire event, and probably aren't thinking clearly enough to take Plan B until it's too late.

Making bad decisions is making bad decisions. Failing to take intelligent and appropriate action is no one else's fault. If I come home to find my house has been robbed and the front door kicked in I'm probably going to stand around in disbelief for a moment. But if I haven't taken any action to fix the front door I can't very well complain too much if the house is robbed again three days later.

 

[ChrisCountryGirl]

I'm against abortion. Each child is a gift from God

 

[Silent Bob]

I don't believe that a first trimester pregnancy that ends is a tragedy equal to that of the death of a living human being so I must say that the abortion is murder argument doesn't work for me. Theologically there have been many opinions on the matter and no argument is 100% solid.

Although I consider abortion to be the worst available option for birth control I adamantly believe that it has to be there. As it has been stated before in order for abortion for convenience purposes to end there is the need for more legislation than just a ban. A ban would be disastrous as no country has right now the social structure to make keeping the baby a truly valid alternative.

You need a lot more than just holding posters in front of abortion clinics. You need to offer unlimited and effective support to unwed or wed mothers both financially and socially. You need to make sure that no woman or couple will miss out on education or career for choosing to carry a pregnancy to term. You need to educate the idiots who would kick their own kid out the house for having sex and if you cannot you need to punish them, for in the end such practice is no more than blackmail and abuse.

Sure this would take away from people's freedoms, sure it would mean more taxes and welfare bills it would also mean that the government would have to pay for daycares, babysitters and it would definitely mean more control over companies and universities to enforce true equal opportunity. But the other alternative takes away from the biggest freedom of all, the right to do with ones body whatever the heck they want.

When all of these structures are in place and no social stigma would result from being a single parent then and only then will the pro-life crowd have a legitimate reason to hold posters and preach damnation. Until that time, in the words of Bill O'Reilly, SHUT UP!


That's the way I see it. And KalEl76 good one on choosing to keep it mate but personal responsibility is just that personal I hope you understand that it cannot be enforced without taking away a person's fundamental freedom.

 

[Konkurrent]

I'm against abortion. Each child is a gift from God

What about the 12 year old girl who gets raped by her father and becomes pregnant. Is that a gift from God?

 

[flicka]

I'm against abortion. Each child is a gift from God

I think each child is a product of biology. The Christan notion of God opening a womans womb and placing a baby soul in there as a present is a little too over the top for me.

 

[TricksterWolf]

I'll take "Things that show the USDA is a foot-dragging piece of poo" for a thousand, Alex.



Making bad decisions is making bad decisions. Failing to take intelligent and appropriate action is no one else's fault. If I come home to find my house has been robbed and the front door kicked in I'm probably going to stand around in disbelief for a moment. But if I haven't taken any action to fix the front door I can't very well complain too much if the house is robbed again three days later.

There's a bit of a difference between being robbed and being raped. The latter is far more psychologically troubling, and you don't immediately know if your "valuables have been stolen". Many women would pretend it didn't happen, rather than take a drug. It's not always because they're irresponsible. It's because they're temporarily insane.

Trickster