Perpetual Virginity

[Oblio]

She bore God, but she is not the Mother in the sense that she was prexistant before Christ. That is a problem I would imagine a lot of protestants would have.

Thank you Godzman, this is also what EO/RC believe.

The problem with many Protestants is they do not understand orthodox Christiology, which is why IMO they have problems with the term Theotokos which guards against heresy.

 

[ChoirDir]

Thank you NYJ, I couldn't remember my source on James being half-brother.
Well put Oblio.

 

[Michelina]

The problem with many Protestants is they do not understand orthodox Christiology, which is why IMO they have problems with the term Theotokos which guards against heresy.

Generally speaking, Protestantism does not encourage the study of Christology or other theology. That is why there are so many different sects. They don't promote the study of Church History either. They seem to think that the average "Joe" can pick up the Bible and understand it perfectly (with the help of their pastor who has studied their traditions).

And, at the same time, they assume that they are our superiors, somehow inherently more inteligent than we are.

 

[Benedicta00]

She bore God, but she is not the Mother in the sense that she was prexistant before Christ. That is a problem I would imagine a lot of protestants would have.

This is pretty much all Mother of God means and this dogma was in order that Christ was protected from heresy, not so Mary can be put on a pedestal. It proves something about Christ that is binding on our conscious, not Mary.

One simply can not at anytime in any way say that Mary gave birth to one and not the other because Christ is both fully man and fully God, do you disagree that He is fully divine, not any less than the Father is divine, but equally divine? She gave birth to the Son and not the Father but the son is equally just as much God as the father is.

 

[Oblio]

One simply can not at anytime in any way say that Mary gave birth to one and not the other because Christ is both fully man and fully God, do you disagree that He is fully divine, not any less than the Father is divine, but equally divine?

To be fair, I noticed that Godzman said She bore God which is more than you will hear from many Protestants, in fact many will recoil in horror when that phrase is used. Some in fact will state that she only gave birth to Jesus the human being. This is precisely why His birth was so miraculous. The Creator of the Universe, uncircumscribable, was nurtured and given sustanance by one of those that He came to save.

 

[pmarquette]

Someone back me up here, I believe that James was either a cousin of Jesus or his half brother.

there is one reference ( need 2-3 to make doctrine ) , he [ Joseph ] knew her not , until after Jesus was born ... which some say indicates James and Jude were Jesus's brothers ...

some note that except the " fathers " taught perpetual virginity of Mary , what is written would indicate blood relation .... brother or stepbrother ...
Neither deminishes Mary being chosen above all others to provide the flesh for Jesus , to combine with the spirit of God , that the " Christ " might come and deliver all men ...

Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

one of the problems with greek , is that the word for brother , cousin , step brother , & brethren are one and the same ...

some say Joseph was older , had children by a first wife , prior to mary , who were Jesus's step brothers .... Jude , James , sisters , etc.
Your mother and your brethren are without ...
Mar 3:31 There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.

Mar 3:32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.

 

[Benedicta00]

To be fair, I noticed that Godzman said She bore God which is more than you will hear from many Protestants, in fact many will recoil in horror when that phrase is used. Some in fact will state that she only gave birth to Jesus the human being. This is precisely why His birth was so miraculous. The Creator of the Universe, uncircumscribable, was nurtured and given sustanance by one of those that He came to save.

That is why I don’t get why he insists on saying she is not The Mother of God but the Mother of Christ. He is actually contradicting himself.

 

[Oblio]

Baby steps ... Baby steps

 

[Michelina]

That is why I don’t get why he insists on saying she is not The Mother of God but the Mother of Christ. He is actually contradicting himself

.

He did say she is Mother of God, Michelle. (After a bit of a skirmish.)

Yes she is the Mother of God, but she did not give him his divinity he had it from being conceived by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Godzman]

To be fair, I noticed that Godzman said She bore God which is more than you will hear from many Protestants, in fact many will recoil in horror when that phrase is used. Some in fact will state that she only gave birth to Jesus the human being. This is precisely why His birth was so miraculous. The Creator of the Universe, uncircumscribable, was nurtured and given sustanance by one of those that He came to save.

John describes it best

John (NASB)

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"
16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.
17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.
18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

 

[Benedicta00]

Godzman,

So are you saying you agree with the Church on the Mother of God dogma? Because this is what you are saying.

 

[Godzman]

Godzman,

So are you saying you agree with the Church on the Mother of God dogma? Because this is what you are saying.

I agree Mary bore Jesus Christ who is fully God. If that means she is the Mother of God then I guess I must be a harry tick for believing that she is.

 

[Michelina]

I agree Mary bore Jesus Christ who is fully God. If that means she is the Mother of God then I guess I must be a harry tick for believing that she is.

I was gonna ask what a harry tick is, but I just figured it out. I'm kinda slow.

No, you're not a heretic for believing it. You would be one for not believing it, acc. to Orthodox and Catholic Faith.

 

[Godzman]

I was gonna ask what a harry tick is, but I just figured it out. I'm kinda slow.

No, you're not a heretic for believing it. You would be one for not believing it, acc. to Orthodox and Catholic Faith.

Yeahmy Gospels professor always says that when talking about heretics, he says I ain't not harry tick. And I laugh everytime.

 

[Polycarp1]

That is why I don’t get why he insists on saying she is not The Mother of God but the Mother of Christ. He is actually contradicting himself.

I've always wondered how many Methodists realize that a subscription to the doctrine of the Theotokos is buried in their Articles of Religion -- I found it out when I studied for the Methodist lay preacher's certificate as a young man, years before becoming an Episcopalian.

Actually godsman seems to have subscribed to the Chalcedonian doctrine after having been walked through it in this thread. (Note to him: The point behind that at the Council of Chalcedon was not to honor Mary, but to defend the doctrine of Christ as "truly God and truly man" as against Nestorius and his followers who taught that Jesus was a man more or less "invaded" by God the Son, who "wore" His manhood.) Seems like there are a lot of Nestorians around these days, though I bet none of them realize it!

The Fifth Act of the Council of Chalcedon:

Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance (homoousios) with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer (Theotokos); one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the Fathers has handed down to us.

 

[Michelina]

The point behind that at the Council of Chalcedon was not to honor Mary, but to defend the doctrine of Christ as "truly God and truly man" as against Nestorius and his followers who taught that Jesus was a man more or less "invaded" by God the Son, who "wore" His manhood

This is something I always point out, Poly. Theotokos is a Christological statement.

 

[prodromos]

It was because in Jewish culture this would have meant that Joseph acknowledged biological fatherhood over Jesus. Because he refused to do this he was saying in essence that he did not accept Jesus as his biological son though he would accept him as his legal son. By refusing to consummate his marriage with Mary he was in conformity with the Jewish Law. By not having intercourse with Mary before the birth of Jesus he is acknowledging in principle that he was also forbidden to have intercourse with her thereafter. A woman found to be with child that is not her husband?s is forbidden forever more to him and to the man who impregnated her. (In fact, a woman caught in adultery is likewise penalized.) Under Jewish law, because Mary was found to be with child before she had consummated her marriage to Joseph she was forever forbidden to him. He could keep her as his wife but he was not allowed intimate relations with her.

I have come across this before but have drawn a complete blank when trying to find references to this Jewish Law (I don't read Hebrew). Can anyone provide links or references to these specific laws? (preferably in English)

John.

 

[prodromos]

This is also a Western Catholic icon and devotion, not only a EO. Our Lady of Perpetual Help is one of the most beloved and popular devotions the Latin rite Church has.

Here is the meaning of the image. . .

I'm curious as to the origin of this description since it appears this icon (Our Lady of Perpetual Help) was originally stolen from Crete. The Catholic Encyclopedia states that "it was brought to Rome towards the end of the fifteenth century by a pious merchant", however other sources indicate the merchant was somewhat lacking in the "pious" department.

I ask because my studies indicate that the icon tradition in the Catholic church was on the wane in the 15th century and was finally almost completely swallowed up by the Renaissance. Up until the 14th century, the icon tradition in the West was indistinguishable from that in the East, flat, 2 dimensional depictions of theological truths. No attempt was made to depict Christ and the saints realistically because they no longer inhabit the physical realm, so we understand that icons depict spiritual reality that cannot be penetrated by our five physical senses.

As a case in point, consider the photostefano (crown of light) surrounding the saints head. In Orthodox tradition this represents the uncreated light that flows through them from God in their deified state, now that they are one with Christ. It does not depict something physical, but rather a spiritual reality. From the 15th century on, this understanding seems to have been totally lost to the Catholic church. Consider the icons below

See how it has already become a physical disk floating behind and slightly above their heads. I've seen frescoes from this period where the disk of one saint obscures the faces of those standing behind him. Later we see how the disc becomes transparent and has been moved above the saint's head, until finally it is almost invisible and only the edge of the disc is visible, the ubiquitous "halo" that we are so familiar with in the West (see Kimber's avatar if you don't understand what I'm talking about.)

See what I mean?

John.

 

[Benedicta00]

Prodromos,

The story that I am familiar with, if IIRC, is when the Church’s were being destroyed in Rome the icon was taken out and hidden by some monks and I can not recall how it ended up in the hands of a family where the Virgin appeared to the child in the family and said to have the parents place the icon in a Church. The parents didn’t listen and something happened, I can not recall, and the family then became fearful so they placed the icon in St. Matthew’s Church in Rome, IIRC.

When the icon was placed at the Church, many healing and petitions were granted when OLPH was invoked. The devotion spread and is now one of the most known and most invoked devotions and novenas we have. Still today many miracles are attributed to OLPH’s motherly intercession. The icon is also known as Mother of Perpetual Help.

The art that depicts the change in the halo’s I notice but I am not understanding the point you are making, what about it?

 

[Benedicta00]

I agree Mary bore Jesus Christ who is fully God. If that means she is the Mother of God then I guess I must be a harry tick for believing that she is.

No, just faith. I don’t think you lack that but I do believe that you may not be admitting it is because you would rather distance yourself from Catholicism.

It is something Luther did, throw everything “Catholic” out that he wanted to and every Protestant until this day does the same. They sacrifice many truths, devotions, pious beliefs and even doctrines just so they are distanced from Rome.

In this day the anti Catholicism is so bad you can see how there are those are willing to reduce the truth of Christ’s divinity down just so they do not have to agree with the Church, it is really sad. Marian dogma is rejected because it is identifiable with Catholicism and that is why over the last 300 years the Mother of God is so disrespected. It isn’t because any of these truths are “not in the bible.”