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Perpetual Virginity

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kimber1

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i was reading in a book given to me the other day (thanks emma ;)) that both Luther and Calvin believed Mary's virginity continued after Jesus' birth, and that Ezekiel 44:2 could possibly refer to Mary's womb being "closed" after Jesus' birth.

"the Lordsaid to me: this gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut."

do Catholics or does the Church hold this position?
 

Michelina

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kimber1 said:
i was reading in a book given to me the other day (thanks emma ;)) that both Luther and Calvin believed Mary's virginity continued after Jesus' birth, and that Ezekiel 44:2 could possibly refer to Mary's womb being "closed" after Jesus' birth.

"the Lordsaid to me: this gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut."

do Catholics or does the Church hold this position?

Yes, kim. It was one of the texts used when the pv was dogmatically stated in the early years.
 
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Michelina

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Although it was recognized by an early Greek synod, it wasn't until 392 that Pope Siricius (Vs Bonosos) addressed it formally.
The Fifth General Council (553) finally put the matter to rest.

Mary's virginity (antem partum, in partu, post partum) is de fide.
"In partu" is not part of any Magisterial formula but is de fide "on the basis of general promulgation of doctrine" (Ott).
 
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BBAS 64

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kimber1 said:
i was reading in a book given to me the other day (thanks emma ;)) that both Luther and Calvin believed Mary's virginity continued after Jesus' birth, and that Ezekiel 44:2 could possibly refer to Mary's womb being "closed" after Jesus' birth.

"the Lordsaid to me: this gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut."

do Catholics or does the Church hold this position?
Good Day, Kimber1

Would you as to post the name of the book. It has allways been my undrestanding of the passage in Ezekiel you refer to Calvin took the same rendering as Augustine "I think":confused: which is in direct opposition to the one you take from this book.

Thank You,

BBAS
 
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Miss Shelby

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Godzman said:
Do all catholics beleive in the perpetual virginity of Mary?
Yes, and we are bound to this belief.
Because I have heard some say they wouldn't have a problem with her having other children by Joseph.
I have heard some Protestants say that. If a Catholic says that, though, they need to be educated.

Michelle
 
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Benedicta00

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Godzman said:
Do all catholics beleive in the perpetual virginity of Mary?

Because I have heard some say they wouldn't have a problem with her having other children by Joseph.

It is absolutely binding on the conscious. If they are Catholic, they really don’t know what they are talking about.
 
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Oblio

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[c]
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Godzman

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Miss Shelby said:
Yes, and we are bound to this belief.
I have heard some Protestants say that. If a Catholic says that, though, they need to be educated.

Michelle

I was wondering, and don't qoute me but I heard Sean Hannity, who by the way is catholic, say that he wouldn't see the problem with Jesus having brothers and sisters. I am assuming he meant children of Mary but I could be wrong.
 
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Miss Shelby

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Godzman said:
I was wondering, and don't qoute me but I heard Sean Hannity, who by the way is catholic, say that he wouldn't see the problem with Jesus having brothers and sisters.
If Sean Hannity said that, then his mama needs to call him on the phone and give him a good tongue lashing. Because if I was his mama and did my best to raise him Catholic and he said that on tv, I would seriously upset. I am assuming that he IS Catholic, or you wouldn't be saying this.

On the other hand, I have heard Protestants who say they have no problem believing Mary remained ever-Virgin.

Michelle
 
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Godzman

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Miss Shelby said:
If Sean Hannity said that, then his mama needs to call him on the phone and give him a good tongue lashing. Because if I was his mama and did my best to raise him Catholic and he said that on tv, I would seriously upset. I am assuming that he IS Catholic, or you wouldn't be saying this.

On the other hand, I have heard Protestants who say they have no problem believing Mary remained ever-Virgin.

Michelle

he mentioned it on his radio show.

I like sean and Bill O'Reilly to, although I am not catholic, I was curious about what Catholics think of both these guys from Fox News.
 
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KennySe

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Godzman said:
Do all catholics beleive in the perpetual virginity of Mary?

Because I have heard some say they wouldn't have a problem with her having other children by Joseph.

All Catholics should believe in the Perpetual Virginity of Mary.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a3p2.htm

499 The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary's real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man.154 In fact, Christ's birth "did not diminish his mother's virginal integrity but sanctified it."155 And so the liturgy of the Church celebrates Mary as Aeiparthenos, the "Ever-virgin".156

500 Against this doctrine the objection is sometimes raised that the Bible mentions brothers and sisters of Jesus.157 The Church has always understood these passages as not referring to other children of the Virgin Mary. In fact James and Joseph, "brothers of Jesus", are the sons of another Mary, a disciple of Christ, whom St. Matthew significantly calls "the other Mary".158 They are close relations of Jesus, according to an Old Testament expression.159

154 Cf. DS 291; 294; 427; 442; 503; 571; 1880.
155 LG 57.
156 Cf. LG 52.
157 Cf. Mk 3:31-35; 6:3; 1 Cor 9:5; Gal 1:19.
158 Mt 13:55; 28:1; cf. Mt 27:56.
159 Cf. Gen 13:8; 14:16; 29:15; etc.​

And the Church Fathers did believe:

http://catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp
 
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Michelina

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Godzman said:
Do all catholics beleive in the perpetual virginity of Mary?
Yes, Man of God. It is dogma.

Godzman said:
Because I have heard some say they wouldn't have a problem with her having other children by Joseph.
That would be because they are poorly informed.



Ezekiel 44 :: King James Version (KJV)
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Ezekiel 44:1 Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut. Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.
This wouldn't have to be explained to a Jew.

Adelphos in the SS does not mean 'brother'. It means kinsman or close relative, otherwise Laban and Jacob were brothers, not in-laws. There are many examples. In some places, it can mean brother, as the choice of the translator depending on context.

In secular Greek, it does usually mean simply brother, but the SS are translating what the folks in Nazareth are saying and they are probably not speaking Gk.
 
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Benedicta00

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From a NON CATHOLIC site:

This poll was taken during the week of 6 June 1999

This was really a history quiz, and it appears that the results will surprise you. The question was: John Calvin, Martin Luther, and Ulrich Zwingli were the most important Protestant Reformers. They all made statements about Mary, the mother of our Lord Jesus Christ. Upon which of the following statements did they all agree? Check as many as apply.

82% of you got it right.
Yes, Calvin, Luther, and Zwingli taught that Mary was a virgin at least until Jesus’ birth.
72% of you got it right.
Yes, Calvin, Luther, and Zwingli taught that Mary is blessed among all women.
31% of you got it right.
Yes, Calvin, Luther, and Zwingli taught that it was appropriate for Christians to honor and venerate Mary.
5% of you got it right.
Yes, Calvin, Luther, and Zwingli taught that Mary was a virgin for her entire life, before and after Jesus’ birth.
62% of you were mistaken.
No, they didn’t exactly say that Mary was overemphasized by the Roman Catholic Church.
44% of you were mistaken.
No, they didn’t exactly say that Protestant teachings about Mary should be different from Roman Catholic teachings about Mary.
The Roman Catholic treatment of Mary is a major issue for Protestants today, but it was a relatively minor issue for the Protestant Reformers. If Calvin, Luther, or Zwingli preached about Mary in a Protestant church today, the congregation would think it was a Roman Catholic sermon.

At the time of the Protestant Reformation, Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox Christians all agreed that Mary was a virgin, not just at the time of Jesus’ birth, but for her entire life. You’ve heard the explanation that Jesus’ “brothers” were really His cousins? You may be surprised to learn that that was John Calvin’s opinion! Ulrich Zwingli especially emphasized Mary’s perpetual virginity. All three also agreed that Mary is blessed among all women, and that it is right for Christians to honor and venerate her. Martin Luther taught that Mary was born without sin and he continued his devotions to the Virgin Mary until his death.

The Protestant Reformers, however, did think that people were wrong to invoke Mary as a mediator or to intervene. This was not a uniquely Protestant view, because there were many Catholics who agreed with them on that point, and there still are today. The Reformers did not disagree with the emphasis the Roman Catholic Church placed on Mary so much as they disagreed with the role they often gave her. We can’t say that they wanted Protestant teachings to be different from Roman Catholic teachings, because they wanted the Roman Catholic Church to clarify its teachings so that Mary would never be put in a position of intervening or mediating. Otherwise they had no substantive differences with the Roman Catholic Church on this topic.

Most of the dogmas about Mary that we associate with the Roman Catholic Church have long historical roots, but they were not official until very recently. The two primary dogmas about Mary are the Immaculate Conception (that Mary was sinless from birth) and the Assumption of Mary (that Mary was assumed into heaven at the end of her life, like Elijah was). I said above that Luther held that Mary was sinless from birth. Although we can trace that teaching back as early as Justin Martyr in the second century, it wasn’t a mandatory article of faith for Roman Catholics until 1854, when the pope officially declared it as a dogma of the Roman Catholic Church. Similarly, we can trace the opinion that Mary was assumed bodily into heaven at the end of her life back to the very early years. Gregory of Tours, who died in AD 594, advocated this as a doctrine of the church, but it wasn’t until 1950 that the pope declared it an official dogma of the Roman Catholic Church. Martin Luther definitely would have agreed with the content of both dogmas, and John Calvin and Ulrich Zwingli probably would have also.

The Roman Catholic Church has not promulgated an official dogma that Mary is a coredemptrix with Christ, but so far as I know, it does not prohibit anyone from thinking that.
 
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