[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] A question for those who.....

[Poster0]

Well that falls right into your parameters doesn't it?

Yes it does actually.

 

[Poster0]

Im sorry OP. Please forgive me for allowing my comments to get off topic. I should have known better.

 

[Davian]

The entire OP is a rant against people who questions him.
Read.

Or a backhanded rant at a forum administrative policy that has his threads shut down for his attempts at apologetics.

 

[Davian]

Actually it is to point out the duplicity and hypocrisy a lot of people are guilty of when they on one hand will not affirm the existence of God but yet want to live as if God does exist.

Do these people have names?

 

[Chriliman]

You've encountered one of the flaws in Postmodernism. Supposedly there is no knowable truth, yet the postmodernist asserts that that idea is, itself, a knowable truth. The fallacy continues into application by deconstructing others' views while subtly asserting the postmodernist's view is correct without concrete evidence. Here are two fun scenarios to play out when you run into this:
1. "Well, there's no way to know anything is absolutely true!"
Answer: "Then how do you know that is true?"

2. "All belief systems can be true. They CAN co-exist!"
Answer: "Does that include a belief system that says yours is wrong?"

It's a good thing there are humans out there who are willing to actually think (and I mean really honestly think) about these points you bring up. Otherwise, we'd all be tossed by the waves with no anchor to what might actually be true.

 

[Davian]

This thread is like a derail magnet. Please stay on topic.

You could tell us more about this oppression that you face.

 

[Poster0]

You've encountered one of the flaws in Postmodernism. Supposedly there is no knowable truth, yet the postmodernist asserts that that idea is, itself, a knowable truth. The fallacy continues into application by deconstructing others' views while subtly asserting the postmodernist's view is correct without concrete evidence. Here are two fun scenarios to play out when you run into this:
1. "Well, there's no way to know anything is absolutely true!"
Answer: "Then how do you know that is true?"

2. "All belief systems can be true. They CAN co-exist!"
Answer: "Does that include a belief system that says yours is wrong?"

Postmodernism sounds like a true example of special pleading.

Description: Applying standards, principles, and/or rules to other people or circumstances, while making oneself or certain circumstances exempt from the same critical criteria, without providing adequate justification. Special pleading is often a result of strong emotional beliefs that interfere with reason.

 

[Freodin]

If what I say does not apply to you then fine. I don't recall mentioning your name in my OP.

So what do you say? Let's see.

This is a question for all of those who believe that meaning and purpose are determined by each human being and not some cosmic tyrant/dictator/gods/God/transcendent being etc. etc. and who at the same time want to spend a great deal of time questioning and arguing with Christians about their beliefs.

That would be adressed to about all atheists here on this forum. We do believe that humans determine meaning, not a (non-existent) deity. And we spend a great deal of time in discussions with Christians, often questioning and arguing about their beliefs.

And that description would include Oafman, just as it includes me, or all the other atheists who responded to your OP.

My question is:

Why is it that you think you can determine what is meaningful and purposeful in your life, but when it comes to the Christian, you want to deny Christians the right to follow the examples of Jesus and His disciples if they find meaning and purpose in doing so?

And it seems you got your answer: we don't. But somehow you are not satisfied with this answer. You still believe that there are people who "want to deny Christians the right to follow the examples of Jesus and His disciples".

You cannot give examples for that. You cannot point out people doing that.

Is that another example of Christians holding irrational beliefs?

 

[Davian]

It's a good thing there are humans out there who are willing to actually think (and I mean really honestly think) about these points you bring up. Otherwise, we'd all be tossed by the waves with no anchor to what might actually be true.

Do you find that only honest people agree with you?

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Is that another example of Christians holding irrational beliefs?

Remember, the persecution complex is instilled in their dogma

 

[beaverpond]

My question is:

Why is it that you think you can determine what is meaningful and purposeful in your life, but when it comes to the Christian, you want to deny Christians the right to follow the examples of Jesus and His disciples if they find meaning and purpose in doing so?

I, for one, have experienced this several times over many years especially while in high school...it seemed more prevalent then as I took the more unpopular stand in debate class of taking the Christian stance on just about every issue. Recently it seems like our ability to be Christians is becoming more and more difficult in the land of freedom. I will not forget when missionaries from two different countries said they pray for us because they have an easier time praying, going out into the streets, going into the schools, bringing the word of God to everybody that is willing to listen. Here there are walls put up everywhere to prevent what we want to do.

 

[bhsmte]

I, for one, have experienced this several times over many years especially while in high school...it seemed more prevalent then as I took the more unpopular stand in debate class of taking the Christian stance on just about every issue. Recently it seems like our ability to be Christians is becoming more and more difficult in the land of freedom. I will not forget when missionaries from two different countries said they pray for us because they have an easier time praying, going out into the streets, going into the schools, bringing the word of God to everybody that is willing to listen. Here there are walls put up everywhere to prevent what we want to do.

Can you give us specific example of these "walls", that keep you from worshiping the God of your choosing?

 

[Poster0]

Is that another example of Christians holding irrational beliefs?

I dont know what beliefs you refer to exactly, but lets be reasonable and rational.

Don't judge my words on the fact that i'm a Christian. Lets just look at Deism itself verses Atheism. Many people think that science supports atheism and not deism. However many people have believed many things over the years that had no basis whatsoever. They may think Christians and other religious people are foolish to believe in something like God without any proof. Lets just open our mind and sincerely consider what i am about to say here. Lets look at Postmodernism for a minute because it has been brought up, postmodernism is not logical because two assertions which contradict each other cannot both be true. Postmodernism is not scientific nor rational. It also illogical to deny the "possibility" of Gods existence without proof, (notice i only said the possibility) and it cannot be proven that God does not exist. Its not scientifically correct to declare or even assume that something doesn't exist if there is no evidence to support such an assumption, its not good science to assume anything without proof or at least some kind of rational basis for an assumption. Deism however does have a rational basis because it can at least provide a plausible theory to explain the things that science cannot explain. It can close the gap where science fails, so Gods existence is completely in the realm of possibility and rationality, which at the very least can make a plausible theory. Atheism on the other hand does not give any rational explanation for its assertion because it doesn't fill any gaps in scientific knowledge and doesn't make a good theory to explain any scientific mystery, so it doesn't make a good scientific theory for anything and it cannot be proven either. When comparing Deism to either Postmodernism or Atheism, Both postmodernism and Atheism have the greater burden of bearing proof and rationality for their assertions.

 

[Poster0]

Remember, the persecution complex is instilled in their dogma

Making blanket statements like that is unreasonable.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Making blanket statements like that is unreasonable.

I said your dogma, not necessarily you.

 

[Freodin]

I dont know what beliefs you refer to exactly, but lets be reasonable and rational.

I was, of course, referring to the very beliefs that I cited in the post I made. The belief that people who don't believe in deities want to keep Christians from beings Christians.
Just read my post again... it is all there, it is quite clear... and I don't know what could have confused you so.

Don't judge my words on the fact that i'm a Christian. Lets just look at Deism itself verses Atheism. Many people think that science supports atheism and not deism. However many people have believed many things over the years that had no basis whatsoever. They may think Christians and other religious people are foolish to believe in something like God without any proof. Lets just open our mind and sincerely consider what i am about to say here. Lets look at Postmodernism for a minute because it has been brought up, postmodernism is not logical because two assertions which contradict each other cannot both be true. Postmodernism is not scientific nor rational. It also illogical to deny the "possibility" of Gods existence without proof, (notice i only said the possibility) and it cannot be proven that God does not exist. Its not scientifically correct to declare or even assume that something doesn't exist if there is no evidence to support such an assumption, its not good science to assume anything without proof or at least some kind of rational basis for an assumption. Deism however does have a rational basis because it can at least provide a plausible theory to explain the things that science cannot explain. It can close the gap where science fails, so Gods existence is completely in the realm of possibility and rationality, which at the very least can make a plausible theory. Atheism on the other hand does not give any rational explanation for its assertion because it doesn't fill any gaps in scientific knowledge and doesn't make a good theory to explain any scientific mystery, so it doesn't make a good scientific theory for anything and it cannot be proven either. When comparing Deism to either Postmodernism or Atheism, Both postmodernism and Atheism have the greater burden of bearing proof and rationality for their assertions.

Well, I think that your thoughts here are indeed worthy for discussion, even for a discussion in the "philosophy" forum. But they are completely out-of-topic for the discussion at hand, the question that the OP asked. If you interested in discussion this topic: open a new thread. I will certainly respond to your post there.

But why do you insist on responding with that to a completely unrelated post?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I dont know what beliefs you refer to exactly, but lets be reasonable and rational.

Don't judge my words on the fact that i'm a Christian. Lets just look at Deism itself verses Atheism. Many people think that science supports atheism and not deism. However many people have believed many things over the years that had no basis whatsoever. They may think Christians and other religious people are foolish to believe in something like God without any proof. Lets just open our mind and sincerely consider what i am about to say here. Lets look at Postmodernism for a minute because it has been brought up, postmodernism is not logical because two assertions which contradict each other cannot both be true. Postmodernism is not scientific nor rational. It also illogical to deny the "possibility" of Gods existence without proof, (notice i only said the possibility) and it cannot be proven that God does not exist. Its not scientifically correct to declare or even assume that something doesn't exist if there is no evidence to support such an assumption, its not good science to assume anything without proof or at least some kind of rational basis for an assumption. Deism however does have a rational basis because it can at least provide a plausible theory to explain the things that science cannot explain. It can close the gap where science fails, so Gods existence is completely in the realm of possibility and rationality, which at the very least can make a plausible theory. Atheism on the other hand does not give any rational explanation for its assertion because it doesn't fill any gaps in scientific knowledge and doesn't make a good theory to explain any scientific mystery, so it doesn't make a good scientific theory for anything and it cannot be proven either. When comparing Deism to either Postmodernism or Atheism, Both postmodernism and Atheism have the greater burden of bearing proof and rationality for their assertions.

Sooooo much wrong with this post.

But atheists don't bear any burden of proof at all, since they aren't forwarding a positive claim.

 

[anonymous person]

So what do you say? Let's see.


That would be adressed to about all atheists here on this forum. We do believe that humans determine meaning, not a (non-existent) deity. And we spend a great deal of time in discussions with Christians, often questioning and arguing about their beliefs.

And that description would include Oafman, just as it includes me, or all the other atheists who responded to your OP.



And it seems you got your answer: we don't. But somehow you are not satisfied with this answer. You still believe that there are people who "want to deny Christians the right to follow the examples of Jesus and His disciples".

You cannot give examples for that. You cannot point out people doing that.

Is that another example of Christians holding irrational beliefs?

If you don't do it then it does not apply to you.

Thanks.

 

[Poster0]

I said your dogma, not necessarily you.

THe assertion isnt accurate

I said your dogma, not necessarily you.

Dogma hardly instills an irrational persecution complex in people. That's what you seem to be suggesting though. THats what i mean by a blanket statement.

 

[Freodin]

If you don't do it then it does not apply to you.

Thanks.

But your question was adressed to me. It was adressed to me and to all the other atheist posters who answered you here.

If you say now that it doesn't apply to me, or Oafman... or any of the others... who does it apply to? Why did you adress it to the ones you did?

Would you think it is a good and meaningful question to ask of "people who believe in the Christian God": "Hey, why do you keep sacrificing animals to Baal?"