[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] A problem at the bottom of reason

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madera23

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You are under the wrong impression. The earth is not sacred, nor is it even ground...it is not the Creator, but the creation.

But do not misunderstand, it has the substance of a projected image...which is basically nothing. It was merely contrived as part of a masterful plan to bring forth spiritual life, from spiritual death.

Matter is mere energy...light.


The following is an introductory chapter that was edited out of Roy Masters’ latest book "Finding God in Physics" We thought you might enjoy reading it. Did the universe begin with a big Bang? Is time still flowing, expanding out from the big bang center of the Universe, as many say? How can this be so? What would be the continuing source of this fount? What is it that keeps time flowing from just one explosive event, and when will time run out?

Big bang proponent British theoretical physicist Steven Hawking says that time will eventually reverse, collapse back upon its origin, implode inward towards its beginning by some unknown gravitational force. This, he says, will cause time to run backwards, assumably carrying the universe with it, compressing it all back into a singularity of infinite density.

If time is going to run backwards, will people rise from the grave and become young again, all going back into their mother’s womb, folding into one another all the way back to the first generation of men and women? Will their natures telescope back into primordial slime from which the human race has supposedly emerged? Will the earth boil back into lava, collapse, and finally compress with the rest of the universe back into that big clump of infinite density-and then silence? Some say yes, despite the evident absurdity of the whole idea.

If time were to stop flowing, the entire universe would vanish in the twinkling of an eye. Everything: light, heat, stars, galaxies, would "pop" out of existence without so much as a puff-disappearing into the void of nothingness from whence it came before God said "Let there be."

This book is about how the universe was created out of "nothing"-rather than from an exploding infinite density. If the universe were created out of an existing something or other, we would be then forced to ask an embarrassingly obvious question: where did that "something" come from, and of what is it composed? With this treatise, this writing, there is no need to ask that obviously unanswerable question, for I will endeavor to show how matter is created out of a "no-thing"-but not nothing. The simpler the picture of creation that is presented, the more facts it can embrace, while at the same time reflecting the magnificent harmonious variations of the creation theme. (The more simple music is, the more capable it is of spinning off variations of its original theme.)

An absolutely new theory is presented here that flies in the face of conventional scientific wisdom. This theory says that time flows from an origin, that time has a beginning, and actually circumorbits its beginner.
 
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Davian

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In that way of thinking, one could not "believe" anything.
Why not? Circular reasoning is used all the time by religionists.
So, one must chose: "Believe" that science has it all figured out (take them at their word),
I have never met anyone that believed that science has it all figured out.
that things are millions of years old, even though carbon dating is in question,
Science must be wrong, because if scientists actually knew what they were doing, then your interpretation of the Bible would be wrong. You can't be wrong, can you? Well, you will allow them to give us satellite TV and the internet, won't you? Or is semiconductor theory only a theory?
even though time itself is in question
Nice red herring there. Is that for dinner later?
...or worse, that the common "belief" has been proven wrong, etc., etc..
Common beliefs are often wrong. However, all of the millions that believed the Earth to be flat never succeed in unrounding it an inch (Asimov).
Or..."believe" that the equally "believed" information available about God
(my bold)
Is that another attempt at an appeal to popularity?

I don't care what you or a million people believe about your various gods. Demonstrate they are more than just characters in books.
is true (take him at his word).
I do not accept your interpretation of the Bible to be true.
Sure, each has their own set of proofs, as defined by them (duh)...so again, that too is circular, in that they BOTH only allow their own version of evidence.

Either way, it's just a matter of who you believe.
One group holds their conclusions to be tentative, show that they comport with observations of reality, and are subject to change with new information. The other groups conduct themselves as if they are infallible, and have all the answers, even when the answers are untestable, unfalsifiable, and are contradictory to all of those other [allegedly] infallible groups.

These others - the religious - act in a manner that suggests that there is no underlying "force" behind all of their rhetoric, that they are merely building opinion on opinion. That is all I see you offering here.
And "what" you believe, is only defined by "who" you believe.
Not me. Knowledge should be independent of the individual, in a manner that reveals and removes our personal biases and perception. Try not to project.
But who gets to make the rules?
Ultimately, the universe does. You are free to believe that you can fly by flapping your arms really fast, or traverse a busy highway at night with your eyes closed, but the universe will set you right when the time comes.
See the problem?
For religions, such as yours? Yep.
 
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Davian

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There are mystics who say that we are the universe being aware of itself.
“We are a way for the cosmos to know itself.”
Carl Sagan, Cosmos
Replace the word "universe" with the word "God", and you get the spiritual sense of their meaning.
Define "spiritual".
God being aware of Him/HerSelf is about as circular as you can get.
In this context, it does not appear that you are speaking of biblical-type gods.
 
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ScottA

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The physical evolves. The physical does not go away. The physical is how the spiritual takes form. What we do to the spiritual now effects what it looks like in the future. So, when we do violence to the physical like we do to the earth, that reaches out to the spiritual and touches it in kind. The physical is way more than energy and light. It has life as well. And life has spirit.

.
You have painted yourself a scenario that can only be confirmed in death. Good luck with that.
 
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ScottA

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The following is an introductory chapter that was edited out of Roy Masters’ latest book "Finding God in Physics" We thought you might enjoy reading it. Did the universe begin with a big Bang? Is time still flowing, expanding out from the big bang center of the Universe, as many say? How can this be so? What would be the continuing source of this fount? What is it that keeps time flowing from just one explosive event, and when will time run out?

Big bang proponent British theoretical physicist Steven Hawking says that time will eventually reverse, collapse back upon its origin, implode inward towards its beginning by some unknown gravitational force. This, he says, will cause time to run backwards, assumably carrying the universe with it, compressing it all back into a singularity of infinite density.

If time is going to run backwards, will people rise from the grave and become young again, all going back into their mother’s womb, folding into one another all the way back to the first generation of men and women? Will their natures telescope back into primordial slime from which the human race has supposedly emerged? Will the earth boil back into lava, collapse, and finally compress with the rest of the universe back into that big clump of infinite density-and then silence? Some say yes, despite the evident absurdity of the whole idea.

If time were to stop flowing, the entire universe would vanish in the twinkling of an eye. Everything: light, heat, stars, galaxies, would "pop" out of existence without so much as a puff-disappearing into the void of nothingness from whence it came before God said "Let there be."

This book is about how the universe was created out of "nothing"-rather than from an exploding infinite density. If the universe were created out of an existing something or other, we would be then forced to ask an embarrassingly obvious question: where did that "something" come from, and of what is it composed? With this treatise, this writing, there is no need to ask that obviously unanswerable question, for I will endeavor to show how matter is created out of a "no-thing"-but not nothing. The simpler the picture of creation that is presented, the more facts it can embrace, while at the same time reflecting the magnificent harmonious variations of the creation theme. (The more simple music is, the more capable it is of spinning off variations of its original theme.)

An absolutely new theory is presented here that flies in the face of conventional scientific wisdom. This theory says that time flows from an origin, that time has a beginning, and actually circumorbits its beginner.
1 Corinthians 7:31
 
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ScottA

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Why not? Circular reasoning is used all the time by religionists.

I have never met anyone that believed that science has it all figured out.

Science must be wrong, because if scientists actually knew what they were doing, then your interpretation of the Bible would be wrong. You can't be wrong, can you? Well, you will allow them to give us satellite TV and the internet, won't you? Or is semiconductor theory only a theory?

Nice red herring there. Is that for dinner later?

Common beliefs are often wrong. However, all of the millions that believed the Earth to be flat never succeed in unrounding it an inch (Asimov).

(my bold)
Is that another attempt at an appeal to popularity?

I don't care what you or a million people believe about your various gods. Demonstrate they are more than just characters in books.

I do not accept your interpretation of the Bible to be true.

One group holds their conclusions to be tentative, show that they comport with observations of reality, and are subject to change with new information. The other groups conduct themselves as if they are infallible, and have all the answers, even when the answers are untestable, unfalsifiable, and are contradictory to all of those other [allegedly] infallible groups.

These others - the religious - act in a manner that suggests that there is no underlying "force" behind all of their rhetoric, that they are merely building opinion on opinion. That is all I see you offering here.

Not me. Knowledge should be independent of the individual, in a manner that reveals and removes our personal biases and perception. Try not to project.

Ultimately, the universe does. You are free to believe that you can fly by flapping your arms really fast, or traverse a busy highway at night with your eyes closed, but the universe will set you right when the time comes.

For religions, such as yours? Yep.
Too many "I"s, too many "not"s.
 
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madera23

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The following is an introductory chapter that was edited out of Roy Masters’ latest book "Finding God in Physics" We thought you might enjoy reading it. Did the universe begin with a big Bang? Is time still flowing, expanding out from the big bang center of the Universe, as many say? How can this be so? What would be the continuing source of this fount? What is it that keeps time flowing from just one explosive event, and when will time run out?

Big bang proponent British theoretical physicist Steven Hawking says that time will eventually reverse, collapse back upon its origin, implode inward towards its beginning by some unknown gravitational force. This, he says, will cause time to run backwards, assumably carrying the universe with it, compressing it all back into a singularity of infinite density.

If time is going to run backwards, will people rise from the grave and become young again, all going back into their mother’s womb, folding into one another all the way back to the first generation of men and women? Will their natures telescope back into primordial slime from which the human race has supposedly emerged? Will the earth boil back into lava, collapse, and finally compress with the rest of the universe back into that big clump of infinite density-and then silence? Some say yes, despite the evident absurdity of the whole idea.

If time were to stop flowing, the entire universe would vanish in the twinkling of an eye. Everything: light, heat, stars, galaxies, would "pop" out of existence without so much as a puff-disappearing into the void of nothingness from whence it came before God said "Let there be."

This book is about how the universe was created out of "nothing"-rather than from an exploding infinite density. If the universe were created out of an existing something or other, we would be then forced to ask an embarrassingly obvious question: where did that "something" come from, and of what is it composed? With this treatise, this writing, there is no need to ask that obviously unanswerable question, for I will endeavor to show how matter is created out of a "no-thing"-but not nothing. The simpler the picture of creation that is presented, the more facts it can embrace, while at the same time reflecting the magnificent harmonious variations of the creation theme. (The more simple music is, the more capable it is of spinning off variations of its original theme.)

An absolutely new theory is presented here that flies in the face of conventional scientific wisdom. This theory says that time flows from an origin, that time has a beginning, and actually circumorbits its beginner.
I did not write the book, oh boy, I have to correct the author.
madera
 
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KCfromNC

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There is no physical. It's imagery, period.

Think of it as a storybook. Is a storybook something to worship? Do people and cute little animals really die? Do they shed real blood? Are the boogie men really in the darkness? Does the forest really burn? Is it all more important than the story, or the author, or his message? No.

The Bible is no different...except, instead of it being fiction, the story is true. But still...the book is not the object of worship. The imagery is mere projection, storytelling. History, is his story, God's story in which we have a part (or not). If we do not have a part...we are mere living color components of the set, like brushed-on butterflies and purple mountains.

Nobody dies (really). In the story...EVERYONE dies. Tragic? Not really. The good news (the gospel) adds into the story...a way out...alive...and actually real, real in the real world of the author of our story. And it is a believable story...because, as you say, you can't help but see him EVERYWHERE in the pages of the story.

This post needs lots more "I believe", "I wish" and "I hope" disclaimers.
 
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paulm50

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I would have to say that is not the case.

They are indeed different:
  • "Science admits they are wrong and corrects itself..."and is "believed" to be correct both before AND after the correction. And even then, most things are not conclusive, so the best possible is hindsight and a slice of what they "think" is true.
  • You're on the Internet, run by science, is it right or wrong?
OK evolution is the part of science you're disputing. Science's "wrong" isn't that evolution doesn't exist. It's that a small piece of it is wrong. Science proves conclusively Genesis is wrong.
According to the Bible, EVERYONE admits they are wrong before they get started (rather than after, as is the case with science), and then they get the conclusive truth from a higher authority.
Yes the bible tells you all the time you're wrong, a sinner, you shouldn't do this or that. It never says the bible is wrong. Even when the bible says one thing and then another thing happens.

As for getting truth from a higher authority. You get told what to believe from a higher authority. The rulers tell you what to do and think. Those who claim to talk to god, usually come back with a different answer and then start their own religion, or get told what the book said is right. Failed Bible Prophecies.
Prophecies, Promises, and Misquotes in the Bible.

Even Jesus failed to keep his promises. Matthew 16:28
Or did he? I prefer to believe someone made that up and wrote it, rather than Jesus said it.


God says, "Taste, and know that I am good."
No god didn't say that, a man wrote "this is what god said". Like he talked to Popes, Mullahs, Brahman priests, Joseph Smith, etc. And they all come back with a different version, except for "this is what god told me, so give generously".
 
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paulm50

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The problem at the bottom of reason. IS.

One has to stop using reason and believe fantasy is real, for it to be real.

Ask anyone to prove god exists, if he talks to anyone, and the evasive action kicks in. Or "proof is all around you." Which could mean the flowers in my garden, or the wars in the Middle East.
 
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Chriliman

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The problem at the bottom of reason. IS.

One has to stop using reason and believe fantasy is real, for it to be real.

Ask anyone to prove god exists, if he talks to anyone, and the evasive action kicks in. Or "proof is all around you." Which could mean the flowers in my garden, or the wars in the Middle East.

Maybe you're asking the wrong questions. Stop asking men to prove God, maybe instead ask God to prove God. Every man who has real faith in God says they cannot prove God to you and they give sound reasons as to why, so why not listen to these men and ask God to prove Himself to you. I've made it as clear as possible as to which God to ask and that is the God of Truth and Love. Drop all the baggage that you carry with you regarding this God and just ask Him to reveal Truth to you from an honest place of humility. In the end you will find meaning to life that you never thought possible and only God gives meaning.
 
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bhsmte

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Maybe you're asking the wrong questions. Stop asking men to prove God, maybe instead ask God to prove God. Every man who has real faith in God says they cannot prove God to you and they give sound reasons as to why, so why not listen to these men and ask God to prove Himself to you. I've made it as clear as possible as to which God to ask and that is the God of Truth and Love. Drop all the baggage that you carry with you regarding this God and just ask Him to reveal Truth to you from an honest place of humility. In the end you will find meaning to life that you never thought possible and only God gives meaning.

Because some else doesn't believe in your God, means they have baggage????

Quite an arrogant conclusion.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Stop asking men to prove God, maybe instead ask God to prove God.

God is welcome to prove God at any time. Since God is omniscient he already knows this, but has so far declined the invitation.

This invitation goes out to every other deity as well, including the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Drop all the baggage that you carry with you regarding this God and just ask Him to reveal Truth to you from an honest place of humility.

God is omnipotent, so this should not be a requirement.

Besides, revelations are neither knowledge nor truth. It will take more than a vision, or something similar, to convince me.

In the end you will find meaning to life that you never thought possible and only God gives meaning.

I already have meaning in life.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Chriliman

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Because some else doesn't believe in your God, means they have baggage????

Quite an arrogant conclusion.

We all have some kind of "baggage". Do you know how I know this? Because no human is perfect. Except the one who claimed to be God, which was and is and will be Jesus Christ.
 
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bhsmte

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We all have some kind of "baggage". Do you know how I know this? Because no human is perfect. Except the one who claimed to be God, which was and is and will be Jesus Christ.

But you are claiming his baggage is getting in the way of them acknowledging your God and agreeing with you.

That is a very arrogant conclusion.
 
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Chriliman

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But you are claiming his baggage is getting in the way of them acknowledging your God and agreeing with you.

That is a very arrogant conclusion.

From your perspective I can see why you think that, but from my perspective, I'm doing my best to give my reasonings for why he and others should believe in this God. As a human, this is all I can do and hope and pray for the best.

I fear some claim to seek truth, but what they're really doing is continuously seeking falsity in truth claims, where no falsity actually exists, thus rendering their endeavor to seek truth a vain endeavor because they are not starting from an honest place within themselves. If you continue to seek falsity in truth claims you will only find falsity, never finding truth. Therefore, seek truth honestly and you will find it. This is all I've got for you for now, until I learn more :)
 
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bhsmte

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From your perspective I can see why you think that, but from my perspective, I'm doing my best to give my reasonings for why he and others should believe in this God. As a human, this is all I can do and hope and pray for the best.

I fear some claim to seek truth, but what they're really doing is continuously seeking falsity in truth claims, where no falsity actually exists, thus rendering their endeavor to seek truth a vain endeavor because they are not starting from an honest place within themselves. If you continue to seek falsity in truth claims you will only find falsity, never finding truth. Therefore, seek truth honestly and you will find it. This is all I've got for you for now, until I learn more :)

You have not provided legit reasons why someone should agree with you, none what so ever.

You really need to come to the realization, that some people are not going to agree with you. And if they don't, it doesn't mean they have some problem (baggage) that is keeping them from agreeing with you.

Believe what you like, but don't judge others with baggage claims because they don't see things as you do. Whatever happened to; take the log out of your own eye..........................................
 
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Chriliman

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You have not provided legit reasons why someone should agree with you, none what so ever.

You really need to come to the realization, that some people are not going to agree with you. And if they don't, it doesn't mean they have some problem (baggage) that is keeping them from agreeing with you.

Believe what you like, but don't judge others with baggage claims because they don't see things as you do. Whatever happened to; take the log out of your own eye..........................................

Its hypocritical to take a quote like "take the log out of your own eye" which comes straight from a book that I believe is completely true and use this quote against me, who already believes the quote hole heartedly. You should not use quotes from the Bible if you do not believe the entire Bible is true because from the perspective of someone who believes the entire Bible, this behavior is seen as very hypocritical and I'm sure if you actually put yourself in my shoes, you would agree. I will continue believing and I'm sure you'll continue assuming I'm wrong.
 
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bhsmte

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Its hypocritical to take a quote like "take the log out of your own eye" which comes straight from a book that I believe is completely true and use this quote against me, who already believes the quote hole heartedly. You should not use quotes from the Bible if you do not believe the entire Bible is true because from the perspective of someone who believes the entire Bible, this behavior is seen as very hypocritical and I'm sure if you actually put yourself in my shoes, you would agree. I will continue believing and I'm sure you'll continue assuming I'm wrong.

I think the quote from a book you believe in and claim to follow, applies quite well in this circumstance.
 
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