Perfection

[RaymondG]

Simple you say God forgive of anything I might have done wrong. and God will reveal things to you maybe you offended someone or ignored someone that needed your help etc. or maybe it turns out you didn't do anything wrong... at least you checked. The Lord's Prayer itself includes this method of seeking forgiveness.

Ok this is clearer. Ask for forgiveness....then God shows you what you did wrong....then you can repent. Makes a little more sense. I thought that by "Repent just in case" you were saying we were to turn from unknown ways.....stop doing things that we arent doing already....which is much harder to grasp.

 

[dreadnought]

Take the apple, then, and enjoy.

You need to know the difference between judging people and making judgments in your life. In other words, you need to resist the temptation to sin. When Jesus told us not to sin, he wasn't just talking to hear himself talk.

 

[dreadnought]

I suppose to some it can.
The Jews are still awaiting on our own King, Savior and Redeemer.
However, I believe more and more Jews [and Muslims] will come to the light of Christ.

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

LUKE 16:29
"Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' "
JOHN 5:45
"Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you — Moses, in whom you trust.

2 Corin 3:
13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. [Revelation 21:4]
14 But their minds were hardened;
for until this very day, upon the reading of the Old Covenant, the same veil remains unlifted,
because it is removed in Christ.

Revelation 1:1
An un-covering/un-veiling/apo-kalupsis <602> of Jesus Christ, which gives to Him, the GOD, to show to the bond-servants of Him, which-things is binding to be becoming In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.

Rev 21:4
“And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain,
for the former things[OC?] have passed away.”

There are some Jewish scholars that recommend Jews read the Christian NT/NC. Amen!

What Jews Can Learn from the New Testament | My Jewish Learning

It is daunting to think of the number of books a Jew “must” read in order to achieve Jewish literacy. With trepidation I suggest yet another volume to add to that list: the New Testament (NT).

Almost all of the books of the NT were written by Jews, many of them during one of the most eventful periods of Jewish history: just before and just after the destruction of the Second Temple (in 70 C.E.).
Very few Jewish writings from that century survive, and none by the rabbis, the representatives of what soon became normative Judaism, since the rabbis of that period felt that their teachings had to remain oral (a position they eventually abandoned). So really the only surviving religious books written by Jews in the first and second centuries are a few of the later Dead Sea Scrolls and the NT.

It might take a lot of effort to resist the temptation to sin, or it might take just a little. Either way, it needs to be done.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

...it needs to be done.

Doctor's orders!

Jhn 5:14

Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

Forgive me...

 

[wilts43]

The entire point of Jesus' crucifixion was to pay for our sins, essentially making the followers of Christ perfect.

I think you might probably have a bit of a mixed view of Justification?

Luther believed Christ's grace covered us ("like dungheaps covered in snow") but did not alter us. (Grace is only imputed to us)

Catholicism believes Christ's grace is actually imparted to us, and will radically perfect us....if we co-operate (hence "grace with works" read James).
This is why Purgatory is necessary; to finish our perfection (if required) before entering God's presence.

You seem to believe we are actually made perfect (Catholic) without co-operating in producing good fruit (Protestant)

 

[Drick]

I think you might probably have a bit of a mixed view of Justification?

Luther believed Christ's grace covered us ("like dungheaps covered in snow") but did not alter us. (Grace is only imputed to us)

Catholicism believes Christ's grace is actually imparted to us, and will radically perfect us....if we co-operate (hence "grace with works" read James).
This is why Purgatory is necessary; to finish our perfection (if required) before entering God's presence.

You seem to believe we are actually made perfect (Catholic) without co-operating in producing good fruit (Protestant)

All I was saying is that, once our sins are forgiven, we're, for all intents and purposes, perfect. I intentionally didn't attach any specific dogma to it.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Thank-you! Was waiting for someone to give a perfect explanation of repentance is. And here it is!

PS: Romans 2 is also a great treatise from Paul about repentance.

 

[Yarddog]

You need to know the difference between judging people and making judgments in your life. In other words, you need to resist the temptation to sin. When Jesus told us not to sin, he wasn't just talking to hear himself talk.

There is one way and ONLY one way to make effective judgements in our lives regarding since. That one way is through the gift which each child of God receives through baptism into the body of Christ. God's Holy Spirit.

If anyone relies on their own abilities to judge the battle has been lost.

The most important thing for Christians to do is surrender to God. Humble oneself and accept incompetence and allow God to teach us how to begin to walk in his Spirit.

It is never what we can do but what God can do within us.

As the Spirit begins to rule within us, since becomes repulsive. The Spirit leads us on what or where.

God bless

 

[Neostarwcc]

I suspect some are closer to perfection than others. Some people surely have been working on this for a long time.

Perhaps. I don't know. I just know that it's impossible to achieve perfection in this life so it's not worth even trying to achieve.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Perhaps. I don't know. I just know that it's impossible to achieve perfection in this life so it's not worth even trying to achieve.

I think for the believer the point is that as far as the work of Christ is concerned, "It is finished" and His sacrifice "once offered" (Hebrews chapters 9 and 10) is indeed perfect, and by faith those who love and trust Him are united with Him.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Perhaps. I don't know. I just know that it's impossible to achieve perfection in this life so it's not worth even trying to achieve.

That may have been typed without the implication being meant! Surely you would agree that we are to seek holiness as a way of life. Obedience shows love to the Godhead, if you love Me keep my commandments John 14:15, John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.” When a sinner becomes a saint at the new birth, the Holy Spirit enter that life and places the fear of God into that person to hate the evil as God does and He gives us the love and reverence for God. This fear is not fright nor to be afraid of, but reverential awe toward Him. See how this is stated to be in Christ quoted in the OT, Isa 11:1-5 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots. 2 The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might,The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.3 His delight is in the fear of the Lord,And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes,Nor decide by the hearing of His ears;4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor,And decide with equity for the meek of the earth;He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.5 Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins,And faithfulness the belt of His waist. Because we love Him we want to obey Him fully and that will be a progressive holiness as we grow, nevertheless my point is I want to be as holy as possible and as Paul said, I press on. And am sure that you will agree with the pressing on.

 

[wilts43]

All I was saying is that, once our sins are forgiven, we're, for all intents and purposes, perfect. I intentionally didn't attach any specific dogma to it.

Do You really believe it is that simple?
Forgiven once for your sins you are forever perfect?
No back-sliding?
No work to do?
No grace to co-operate with?
No need to produce good fruit?
No "salvation to work out in fear & trembling"?

 

[wilts43]

I think for the believer the point is that as far as the work of Christ is concerned, "It is finished" and His sacrifice "once offered" (Hebrews chapters 9 and 10) is indeed perfect, and by faith those who love and trust Him are united with Him.

You need to hear this

 

[Drick]

Do You really believe it is that simple?
Forgiven once for your sins you are forever perfect?
No back-sliding?
No work to do?
No grace to co-operate with?
No need to produce good fruit?
No "salvation to work out in fear & trembling"?

Well, that's not exactly what I said, is it? Of course people backslide, that's why we confess and repent. We work and produce good fruit by the influence of God's grace. I never said it was an entirely smooth road, I was just trying to keep it basic.

 

[wilts43]

Well, that's not exactly what I said, is it? Of course people backslide, that's why we confess and repent. We work and produce good fruit by the influence of God's grace. I never said it was an entirely smooth road, I was just trying to keep it basic.

Fine, OK, Drick.
But do you believe, like Luther, that we become "dunghills covered with snow"
Or do you believe that God actually wants us to "become like him".... actually perfect?
that is the OP question, is it not?

 

[dreadnought]

Perhaps. I don't know. I just know that it's impossible to achieve perfection in this life so it's not worth even trying to achieve.

I don't agree.

 

[Drick]

Fine, OK, Drick.
But do you believe, like Luther, that we become "dunghills covered with snow"
Or do you believe that God actually wants us to "become like him".... actually perfect?
that is the OP question, is it not?

What I believe won't exactly be helpful in the defined parameters, but fine. I think it can work on multiple levels. On one hand, it means literal perfection provided by redemption from Christ, whatever mechanic that comes from I haven't figured out yet. It could also be an allusion to Noah, who was "perfect in his generation", meaning that he alone walked with God. Taken that way, it could mean that you must be a devoted follower of Christ. As with most rules and stories in the Bible, it's also an allegory for practical means of improving your life. Taken this way, it could mean something to the effect of "Only one who takes available opportunity will reach his goal". The "Heavenly Father" being the goal, and "perfection" being active awareness of opportunities.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

...so it's not worth even trying to achieve.

There once was a Monk who was visited briefly by Christ. During the visit Christ pointed out a large bolder and told the Monk to push it.

The Monk began pushing and Christ vanished.

Many years later Christ returned to the Monk and asked why he was not pushing.

The Monk explained that he could not move the bolder no matter what he did.

Christ replied, I told you to push. I will move the rock. With the next push, the rock fell.

The moral of the story; Obedience, even when, and sometimes especially when, we do not understand.

Forgive me...

 

[spiritman]

Jesus said:

“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matt 5:48 RSV

However, I’m always hearing people say that it is impossible to be perfect. Keeping in mind that the Lord helps us, is it that hard to repent of our sin?

It's not impossible to those that are born again. Jesus would not give us a command we could not follow.

 

[Blade]

Jesus said:

“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matt 5:48 RSV

However, I’m always hearing people say that it is impossible to be perfect. Keeping in mind that the Lord helps us, is it that hard to repent of our sin?

Our flesh was never born again born from above. Now our Spirit was made NEW. So.. when you read never sin.. our spirit can never sin. And GOD sees you as a finished work. He is a faith GOD. So.. He sees us THROUGH Christ Holy spotless IN through Christ. If you try to see this by the flesh.. duh.. flesh has not been changed. Paul said it best and I think you would agree "the things I want to do I dont do. The things I dont want to do I do. It is no longer I that sin..but sin that is in me. WHAT was made NEW? WHAT is the NEW you? Put off the OLD man put on the new which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.