Perfection

[dreadnought]

God bless.



Indeed, you are not an enemy of a "website" simply because you are passionate about God or otherwise.
Everything you said is true and trustworthy. However, you must define what perfection is before setting its strength.

Do you believe that in the event (death) that we should fail to attain this "perfection", we will be subject to condemnation? I am not implying that we should stop striving for perfection. However, even for yourself, you must answer if perfection is attainable. Many believers may falsely make the interpretation of their own definition and fail to attain it. Certainly, you have stated that it is possible to attain. Perhaps. However, I can tell you that I will never attain, though I will try. Do you think God will condemn me?

This is all hypothetical from my end. I have seen believers struggle with perfection, all to see them beat themselves up because they can't achieve perfection. This can be dangerous. In the end, no one is perfect except God.

Thank you dreadnought. This is one of the more difficult things for a believer to do. Keep in mind that God's grace extends beyond the strongest and deepest of human reaches. Where sin abounded, grace all the more.

I would define perfection as absence of sin. We've all sinned, but I believe, with the Lord's help, we can all forsake sin.

 

[psif]

Truly dangerous. Others will give up hope.

Forgive me...

Indeed. Also, it should be noted that the Christ (Jesus) speaks on earth and Heaven simultaneously (His words apply to all, everywhere, always). Therefore, we must ACT as the Father does. Graceful/merciful to His loved ones and enemies (since there are fallen angels from heaven and is still patient with them to this day).

Also, the Christ (Jesus) does not give a condition here. I don't want to read between lines or add (God forbid) to His words, however, the text does not read "You must be perfect.. (or condition)". It seems to be implying a continual and consistent effort to achieve that said perfection. Indeed, one day, once in the hereafter, we most likely will be perfect, though not anywhere near the state of the Father / Son.

Just some thoughts.
Thanks OrthodoxyUSA

 

[psif]

A mature Christian can sin, but then they aren't perfect anymore till they repent.

God Bless.
Just a note. A significant difference between Can (law/allowance) and Can (ability).
One cannot sin (by law). However, "can" in the sense that a Christian has the (ability) to sin, vis a vis, free will. (though should not, though all do)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
Wasn't He always mature and perfect, even before birth, since He was in the Beginning?

As always!

Forgive me...

Who can't help but love and worship the "Ancient of Days"

Dani 7:13
I was seeing in the visions of the night, and behold! with the clouds of the heavens as a son of man was one coming,
and unto the Ancient of Days He hath come, and before Him they have brought Him near.
[Matt 26:64/Reve 1:7, 12:5]

Matt 26:64
Jesus says to him "thou say, moreover I am saying to ye,
from present/now ye shall be seeing the Son of Man sitting out of rights of the power and coming upon the clouds of the heaven".

Reve 12:5
and she brought forth a male child, who is about to be shepherding all the nations with a rod of iron,
and was caught-away the child of her toward/proV <4314> GOD and His throne. [Daniel 7:13]

Revelation 1:7
Behold! He is coming with the clouds....................................

 

[psif]

Perfection is this.

1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

God bless. Nice touch. Who can possibly debate you when you wear armor like that? lol.

Thank God for the grace through His Christ (Jesus). Indeed, through works it is impossible. These posts testify that all the more. Well done brothers/sisters!. Careful. The enemy (Satan) seeks to pervert this "perfection" when he himself cannot achieve it. It is grace that makes repentance all the stronger. Who could have thought that mercy had such power.

Well done. I will see you in the hereafter. Coffee?

 

[All4Christ]

What is "sinless perfection"? I believe we should repent of our sin, as Jesus commanded, and strive for perfection, as Jesus commanded. I believe perfection is attainable, with the Lord's help. Does that make me an enemy of this site?

I grew up in a church following the Holiness movement, and I still believe we should strive for perfection. Honestly, I don't think Wesley even taught absolute sinless perfection. It depends on what you mean by "perfection".

That said, we all need to abide by the rules of each forum. Certainly that doesn't inherently make you an enemy of this site though. There are certain subjects I cannot promote based on the rules. I'm guessing that is the case with most of us.

 

[psif]

God Bless.

All4Christ. Check out post #126. I started by defining it. Indeed "perfection" requires a deeper exegesis in light of its context. However, I believe everyone understands this "perfection" spoken of by the Christ (Jesus). We have definitely been grinding it down. I'd say it's getting rather smooth by now.

High five to everyone.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

All4Christ said: ↑
Just a quick unofficial reminder that the rules of a General Theology do not allow the promotion of sinless perfection. I'm not sure if he opinions here go to the point of sinless perfection, but I recommend keeping this rule in mind.

Can you link the source for that? Thanks

What is "sinless perfection"? I believe we should repent of our sin, as Jesus commanded, and strive for perfection, as Jesus commanded. I believe perfection is attainable, with the Lord's help. Does that make me an enemy of this site?

LLoJ runs to wiki!

John 8:
7 But as they continued asking Him, having lifted Himself up, also He said to them, "The one sinless among you, let him cast the first stone at her."
9 Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
10 "No one, Lord," she answered. "Neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Now go and sin no more."

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

Search Wikipedia Encyclopedia:
Christian perfection - Wikipedia
Christian perfection
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Sinless perfection)

Certain traditions and denominations teach the possibility of Christian perfection, including the Catholic Church, where it is closely associated with consecrated life. It is also taught in Methodist churches and the holiness movement, in which it is sometimes termed Wesleyan perfectionism.
Other denominations, such as the Lutheran and Reformed churches, reject teachings associated with Christian perfection as contrary to the doctrine of salvation by faith alone...................

Protestant criticism

There are Protestant denominations that reject the possibility of Christian perfection. This is true of Confessional Lutherans.[37][38] The Augsburg Confession of 1530 condemns "those who contend that some may attain to such perfection in this life that they cannot sin."[39] Lutherans, citing Romans 7:14-25 and Philippians 3:12, believe that "although we will strive for Christian perfection, we will not attain it in this life". [40] Modern apologists further note that:..........

Our salvation is complete and is simply received by faith. Good works are the fruit of that faith. Good works show that we are saved, but have no part in saving us. Becoming more and more God-like in this life is the result of being saved. If we are saved by becoming more and more God-like, our salvation is in doubt because our being God-like is never perfect in this life. The troubled conscience will find little comfort in an incomplete process of theosis, but will find much comfort in God's declaration of full and free forgiveness.[41]

While Presbyterians believe that Christians do "grow in God's grace" or holiness as they become conformed to the image of Christ, they reject the notion that perfection is attainable. In their view, sin will continue to affect one's motives and actions. This means that perfection is only attainable in glorification after death....................

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

God Bless.

All4Christ. Check out post #126. I started by defining it. Indeed "perfection" requires a deeper exegesis in light of its context.
However, I believe everyone understands this "perfection" spoken of by the Christ (Jesus). We have definitely been grinding it down. I'd say it's getting rather smooth by now.

High five to everyone.

I will have to check it out.

God bless. To add to what the Christ (Jesus) said in Matthew 5:48.

Is it possible / probable to be perfect always?
And what about in the hereafter, when there are no more enemies? Is it still possible to attain this "perfection" by loving out enemies (that no longer exist)?----------

Interesting.

Did you check out mine?

Perfection

Perhaps it may be good idea to study on the word greek word used for "perfection" in the NT......

 

[hedrick]

Repent just in case? How does one repent of something he doesnt believe he is doing? Unless you are saying that to repent is to just utter the words " I Repent"

I think repentance is close to humility. That is, it's more an attitude of accepting God's standards and a commitment to following them as we are able.

What isn't it:

Never sinning again. Jesus assures us that God will forgive us even if we do the same thing seven times a day (Luke 17:4)

While I can't find an explicit reference for this, I don't think it means you must explicitly repent for every sin you've ever committed. If you look at how Jesus uses the word, repentance is a change in direction. He doesn't talk about repenting for every individual sin. The problem with requiring repentance for every sin is that we don't always recognize when we're doing something wrong. We may also forget. Luther's problem was that he was afraid he'd go to hell if he didn't repent perfectly for every sin. This isn't specifically a Protestant / Catholic thing. His Catholic confessor felt he was being unreasonable.

 

[psif]

I will have to check it out.
Interesting.
Did you check out mine?
Perfection

God bless.
I did. However, I object using Wikipedia for anything. That is a devil's tool if there ever was one. There is a lot of lies in there. Especially about Israel and Jerusalem. So, no cigar on Wikipedia.

As for your statements about religions, I must also decline. I believe salvation is by faith alone (in my humble opinion). It is what separates Christianity from all other worldviews / religions. Sorry. I cannot believe any religious denominational teachings although some are very close to what I believe. I have the Holy Bible and word of God. I don't need man-made creations for learning God's word.

Although, it poses interesting theological challenges which are in my opinion, very healthy. Thanks.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
I will have to check it out.
Interesting.
Did you check out mine?

God bless.
I did. However, I object using Wikipedia for anything. That is a devil's tool if there ever was one. There is a lot of lies in there. Especially about Israel and Jerusalem. So, no cigar on Wikipedia.

I didn't quote wiki in post 109...........
Sorry for the confusion......

Perfection


.

 

[RaymondG]

I think repentance is close to humility. That is, it's more an attitude of accepting God's standards and a commitment to following them as we are able.

What isn't it:

Never sinning again. Jesus assures us that God will forgive us even if we do the same thing seven times a day (Luke 17:4)

While I can't find an explicit reference for this, I don't think it means you must explicitly repent for every sin you've ever committed. If you look at how Jesus uses the word, repentance is a change in direction. He doesn't talk about repenting for every individual sin. The problem with requiring repentance for every sin is that we don't always recognize when we're doing something wrong. We may also forget. Luther's problem was that he was afraid he'd go to hell if he didn't repent perfectly for every sin. This isn't specifically a Protestant / Catholic thing. His Catholic confessor felt he was being unreasonable.

The post you responded to was about the statement that you should repent even when you don't sin....you know...."just in case" this obscures the meaning of repentance and I wanted clarification on their version of it.

Never sinning again is beyond the scope of this thread, but I would have you keep in mind that Jesus was speaking too people who had not received the comforter and who had not yet experienced the resurrection. I would believe his instructions would be different afterwards.....in fact, in that day we may never Him for anything.....for we well know the father and his love for us.

 

[Winken]

Yeah, you are. It's RC. You just don't seem to know it. Did you miss the part where I said "that idea" did /does not even exist in any other Apostolic Church? Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople, Ethiopia, India... not one of them has this Roman idea (you cant fall from grace) put forth by Augustine in the 4th century.

Other common refutations from scripture about OSAS.

• Romans 11:22: Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
• 1 Corinthians 9:25-27: Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
• Galatians 5:4: You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
• 2 Peter 2:20: For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
• Colossians 1:21-23: And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
• Revelation 3:2-5: "Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels."

Forgive me...

As usual, quoted out of context.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Indeed. Also, it should be noted that the Christ (Jesus) speaks on earth and Heaven simultaneously (His words apply to all, everywhere, always). Therefore, we must ACT as the Father does. Graceful/merciful to His loved ones and enemies (since there are fallen angels from heaven and is still patient with them to this day).

Also, the Christ (Jesus) does not give a condition here. I don't want to read between lines or add (God forbid) to His words, however, the text does not read "You must be perfect.. (or condition)". It seems to be implying a continual and consistent effort to achieve that said perfection. Indeed, one day, once in the hereafter, we most likely will be perfect, though not anywhere near the state of the Father / Son.

Just some thoughts.
Thanks OrthodoxyUSA

On target.

Forgive me...

 

[Winken]

A mature Christian can sin, but then they aren't perfect anymore till they repent.

When we wander into sinful acts we do, in fact, repent, not to be restored to salvation, but to resume our walk with Him on the Path He prepared for us in Romans 10:8-13.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

As usual, quoted out of context.

Winken,

Does any Christian history after the close of scripture up to the present fit into your studies? Have you studied about any of the known Christian heresies?

For instance have you studied the first ecumenical councils canons?

Its not a trap. Just an honest question. Maybe they don't pertain to you?

Forgive me...

 

[All4Christ]

Can you link the source for that? Thanks.

See the fourth bullet point under the guidelines in the Statement of Purpose (quoted below)

General Theology Statement of Purpose

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May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer. -- Psalm 19:14

A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another. -- John 13:34,35

 

[Ethan Larson]

I don't think it's rhetorical. I believe repentance is necessary.

You should repent for your sins but the section doesn't seem to mention anything about repentance. It is titled "Love Your Enemies". And it does mention right before that they've been told, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you," (Matthew 5: 43-44 ESV). Even after that he asks, "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have?" (Matthew 5: 46 ESV). Then follows up by, "And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others?" (Matthew 5: 47 ESV). These verses questions are very rhetorical. He's not asking for a proper response. I think Jesus is applying the Law to all the Christians and making us think about our ideals. If it was repentance then why all of a sudden the author change the aspect of the text to repent at the end. This is why I'd assume its a rhetorical statement.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Winken,

Does any Christian history after the close of scripture up to the present fit into your studies? Have you studied about any of the known Christian heresies?

For instance have you studied the first ecumenical councils canons?

Its not a trap. Just an honest question. Maybe they don't pertain to you?

Forgive me...

Isn't that mainly used by the EOC? Does the RCC study those?
Sorry, but there is no way I would read thru those.
Forgive me.....

Canons of the seven ecumenical councils - Table of Contents - IntraText CT
Canons of the seven ecumenical councils

Introduction:

In the church discipline, the work of the first four ecumenical councils has an obvious interest for the knowledge of the law and institutions of early Christianity. During this period, 325 to 451, which great patristic follow — through the canonical legislation of the Councils of Nicea, Constantinople, Ephesus, and Chalcedon as well as other decisions made by these assemblies on specific questions — the evolution of the structures of the Church, of her discipline, and of her relations with the surrounding society. If we compare this and the period, we see that all sorts of new problems come up while others importance.

The canons issued by these councils constitute the core of Church Law in the Christian East, even today. They also formed an important part of the Western Church's law during the first influenced, in no small way, the western medieval synthesis.