Perfection

[OrthodoxyUSA]

So is condemning a believer to hell. We live by hope no matter how bad we screwed up, no matter what we lose, or how foolish we are. We are saved by hope, not by theology. Hope is within, no man can preach it there, it is a gift from God.

Who condemned anybody? Its wrong. Its not of Apostolic Christian teaching. It's heresy.

Get out of that mindset. Its very dangerous.

Forgive me...

 

[W2L]

Who condemned anybody? Its wrong. Its not of Apostolic Christian teaching. It's heresy.

Get out of that mindset. Its very dangerous.

Forgive me...

What mindset?

 

[W2L]

Yes, we grow into mature adults, insofar as secularism is concerned. That is progressive. My post concerns our Spiritual birth, born-again experience. We are "at once made whole" in Him.

My post is about spiritual growth.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

What mindset?

Church Father Augustine of Hippo taught that those whom God chooses to save are given, in addition to the gift of faith, a gift of perseverance (donum perseverantiae) which enables them to continue to believe, and precludes the possibility of falling away.

This is Roman Catholicism. This doesn't exist in any other Apostolic Church, only Rome.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Final Perseverance


Forgive me...

 

[W2L]

Church Father Augustine of Hippo taught that those whom God chooses to save are given, in addition to the gift of faith, a gift of perseverance (donum perseverantiae) which enables them to continue to believe, and precludes the possibility of falling away.

This is Roman Catholicism. This doesn't exist in any other Apostolic Church, only Rome.

Forgive me...

Im not following some EO or RC church tradition, im following the hope within my heart, put there by God.

 

[psif]

God bless. To add to what the Christ (Jesus) said in Matthew 5:48.

"You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

First, let's remove the negatives and state definitions.
What is perfection? Because I know I'm far from attaining that, having a physical condition and not being necessarily attractive. I cannot keep up with military (soldiers) or their demands for physical prowess. I am not 250 pounds of sheer muscle. I am not attractive. I am not an Olympic athlete not an artist. I can go on, but now I've just depressed myself. lol

So what is perfection? Is it to be sinless? Indeed. And only One is sinless and Holy. Therefore, immediately, the bar is impossible, and truly impossible to attain. However, it's also clear that the context implied is also incorrect here. What IS meant, is the action to which it is attributed (to the Father). Even the Christ (Jesus) said: (Mark 10:18 / Luke 18:19)
"Why do you call me good?" "No one is good--except God alone."

Though, He did not say "perfect", but "good".

Therefore, what is meant is the ACTIONS (and obviously grace) the Father is presenting. In context, to Loving our enemies, is indeed acting perfectly because there is no higher ACTION to be presented. What can be higher than loving those that hate and persecute you? There is nothing conceivable. Indeed, it is sacrificial. What we sacrifice, through selflessness, is a striving and effort towards what the Father sees as "perfect".

Is it possible / probable to be perfect always?
And what about in the hereafter, when there are no more enemies? Is it still possible to attain this "perfection" by loving out enemies (that no longer exist)?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Im not following some EO or RC church tradition, im following the hope within my heart, put there by God.

Yeah, you are. It's RC. You just don't seem to know it. Did you miss the part where I said "that idea" did /does not even exist in any other Apostolic Church? Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople, Ethiopia, India... not one of them has this Roman idea (you cant fall from grace) put forth by Augustine in the 4th century.

Other common refutations from scripture about OSAS.

• Romans 11:22: Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
• 1 Corinthians 9:25-27: Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
• Galatians 5:4: You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
• 2 Peter 2:20: For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
• Colossians 1:21-23: And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
• Revelation 3:2-5: "Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels."

Forgive me...

 

[W2L]

Yeah, you are. It's RC. You just don't seem to know it. Did you miss the part where I said "that idea" did not even exist in any other Apostolic Church? Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople, Ethiopia, India... not one of them has this Roman idea (you cant fall from grace) put forth by Augustine in the 4th century.

Other common refutations from scripture about OSAS.

• Romans 11:22: Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
• 1 Corinthians 9:25-27: Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
• Galatians 5:4: You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
• 2 Peter 2:20: For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
• Colossians 1:21-23: And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
• Revelation 3:2-5: "Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels."

Forgive me...

What exactly am i following? What idea? What RC heresy am i following? You never answered the question clearly.

Do you not hope within your heart? Thats what im talking about. Im very humbled and in need of salvation. The Lord is my shepherd. Do you know Him that way?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

What exactly am i following? What idea? What RC heresy am i following? You never answered the question clearly.

The idea that we cannot fall away. Cannot fall from grace. Once saved always saved.

Is that answering your question?

Forgive me...

 

[psif]

God bless.

What is "sinless perfection"? I believe we should repent of our sin, as Jesus commanded, and strive for perfection, as Jesus commanded. I believe perfection is attainable, with the Lord's help. Does that make me an enemy of this site?

Indeed, you are not an enemy of a "website" simply because you are passionate about God or otherwise.
Everything you said is true and trustworthy. However, you must define what perfection is before setting its strength.

Do you believe that in the event (death) that we should fail to attain this "perfection", we will be subject to condemnation? I am not implying that we should stop striving for perfection. However, even for yourself, you must answer if perfection is attainable. Many believers may falsely make the interpretation of their own definition and fail to attain it. Certainly, you have stated that it is possible to attain. Perhaps. However, I can tell you that I will never attain, though I will try. Do you think God will condemn me?

This is all hypothetical from my end. I have seen believers struggle with perfection, all to see them beat themselves up because they can't achieve perfection. This can be dangerous. In the end, no one is perfect except God.

Thank you dreadnought. This is one of the more difficult things for a believer to do. Keep in mind that God's grace extends beyond the strongest and deepest of human reaches. Where sin abounded, grace all the more.

 

[W2L]

The idea that we cannot fall away. Cannot fall from grace. Once saved always saved.

Is that answering your question?

Forgive me...

Yes that answers the question, thank you. I am in no way judging salvation. Im talking about hope. Do you know what hope is? Hope is when you are humbled and know you are lost and ugly, knowing that you need beauty for your ashes.. Its being contrite and searching for a savior, and putting your hope in Him.

Psalm 51:17New King James Version (NKJV)

17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart—
These, O God, You will not despise.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

John 5:14 Christ Jesus speaking

"Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee."

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Yes that answers the question, thank you. I am in no way judging salvation. Im talking about hope. Do you know what hope is? Hope is when you are humbled and know you are lost and ugly, knowing that you need beauty for your ashes.. Its being contrite and searching for a savior, and putting your hope in Him.

Psalm 51:17New King James Version (NKJV)

17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart—
These, O God, You will not despise.

I do know exactly.

I said that the idea of falling from grace was heresy. How did we cross conversations?

Forgive me...

 

[W2L]

John 5:14 Christ Jesus speaking

"Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee."

Forgive me...

That scripture could refer a worse thing in this life, not necessarily hell.

 

[W2L]

I do know exactly.

I said that the idea of falling from grace was heresy. How did we cross conversations?

Forgive me...

I dont know.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

From the Orthodox Point of View;
To be perfect is to be "fully" human as we were created. Our model: Jesus Christ
That would be in keeping with Wordkeeper's "complete", wouldn't it?
Coffee is ready!

Forgive me...

Enjoy yer coffee.......

How mature he must have been while being so young.

Luk 2:47 "And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers."

Forgive me...

Wasn't He always mature and perfect, even before birth, since He was in the Beginning?

Isaiah 11:6
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together
and a little child/lad shall lead them.
Luke 2:42
and when He became twelve years old, they having gone up to Jerusalem, according to the custom of the feast,
John 17:11
And not still I AM in the world, and these in the world are,
and I toward/proV <4314> Thee am coming........[Reve 12:5?]

Reve 12:5
and she brought forth a male child, who is about to be shepherding all the nations with a rod of iron,
and was caught-away the child of her toward/proV <4314> GOD and His throne.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I have seen believers struggle with perfection, all to see them beat themselves up because they can't achieve perfection. This can be dangerous.

Truly dangerous. Others will give up hope.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Wasn't He always mature and perfect, even before birth, since He was in the Beginning?

Isaiah 11:6
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together
and a little child/lad shall lead them.
Luke 2:42
and when He became twelve years old, they having gone up to Jerusalem, according to the custom of the feast,
John 17:11
And not still I AM in the world, and these in the world are,
and I toward/proV <4314> Thee am coming........[Reve 12:5?]

Reve 12:5
and she brought forth a male child, who is about to be shepherding all the nations with a rod of iron,
and was caught-away the child of her toward/proV <4314> GOD and His throne.

As always!

Forgive me...

 

[dreadnought]

I once heard a person say tha5t biblical perfection means maturity. Can a mature Christian sin? Yes i believe so. Will they repent? Yes, surely.

A mature Christian can sin, but then they aren't perfect anymore till they repent.

 

[W2L]

A mature Christian can sin, but then they aren't perfect anymore till they repent.

Perfection is this.

1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.