Perfection or no?

[Larry Wilgus]

So, in a recent discussion I came across the view that God does not demand perfection in the keeping of His commandments.

Anyone else feel that way?

The New Covenant of love fulfills the Law. It is impossible for God to demand perfection from fallen human beings. In Christ, we stand righteous before the Father, and He is well pleased with us.

 

[Dan61861]

No. He that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8)

At least quote the whole verse.

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Everyone who does evil hates the light (John 3:20).

neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

2 Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
Christ crucified!

If one hates their brother no eternal life abides in them (1 John 3:15).

1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Love God, love your neighbor.

Anyone who does not righteousness is not of God (1 John 3:10).

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 3:18-24 There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we claim to have fellowship with him and walk in darkness we lie and do not the truth (1 John 1:6).

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
We trust in Christ and His work.

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (1 John 2:4).

1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

He that does righteousness is righteous (1 John 3:7).

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

If we walk in the light as he (Christ) is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

I agree, it is Christ's passion, His work that makes us right with God.
Right, we believe Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, He was buried and rose the third day according to the scriptures.

Without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

Ephesians 1:6-7 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God,who loved me and gave himself for me.

Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Ephesians 2:5-6 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Titus 1:9-16 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

This is talking about those that find their own righteousness by obeying the Law.

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

Galatians 3:11:14 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Notice, it is Christ's good works, not our own.

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

As for Romans 4:8: Well, this is reference to Initial Salvation (Justification). This is the receiving of Jesus Christ as one's Savior and believing in His death and resurrection for salvation. It is talking about Initial Salvation which is then followed by works or the process of Sanctification (the next step or stage in the salvation process). This is the Lord doing the good work in you; So a believer cannot pat themselves on the back and or to scream to people, "Hey everybody! Come see how I good I am." Jesus deserves all the glory, honor, and power. God's grace is a means to overcome sin and His grace is not a license to sin.

You are so wrong

Romans 8:31-39 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Anyways, if you were to continue to keep reading, it says the following,

21 "And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness."
(Romans 4:21-22).

Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead

Verse 21 says that Abraham being persuaded (belief) he was able to perform (works), And this was imputed to him as righteousness.

No it doesn't.
James 2:21-23 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

What do you think Abraham believed? He believed that Isaac would be raised up with Christ. Abraham believed in his Redeemer.

1 John 1:7 says a similar thing. If you walk in the light as he (Christ) is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses you of all sin. Are you walking in the light of Christ. This is paralleled with keeping his commandments (See 1 John 2:3). Walking in darkness (1 John 1:6) is paralleled with not keeping his commandments (See 1 John 2:4).

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Enter His rest Jason, He has done all for you.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[Dan61861]

First, Sinless Perfection is the goal and it is not a salvation issue.

...

Your goal should be to remain in Christ, let Him cover you. Your change will come. It will not happen in this flesh.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The New Covenant of love fulfills the Law. It is impossible for God to demand perfection from fallen human beings. In Christ, we stand righteous before the Father, and He is well pleased with us.

What's this:

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

“‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

 

[Neogaia777]

@Jason0047

See here please... I'd like to see a post from you in this thread...

What is your reason for wanting to be, or to thinking you are, "perfect"...?

And here...

Perfection or no?

Perfection or no?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

At least quote the whole verse.

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

So you never quoted a snippet of a verse before? You do realize that chapter and verse numbers were added later, right? Anyways, quoting the whole verse does not help to prove your belief is true in any way. On the contrary, it speaks against Eternal Security. Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (sin) in your life. John does not focus on a belief on Jesus here in 1 John 3 but he focuses on doing righteousness versus sinning or hating your brother.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

This verse does not help you. It works against you because it is saying that sin is the breaking of God's commands or laws. If you believe that having a mere belief alone on Jesus saves you without keeping God's laws then that would not be true according to what John says. John says, "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth." (1 John 1:6). This is similar to 1 John 2:4 that says, "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." So your belief in Eternal Security is condemned by what John says. It is not true.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Context please. Paul is talking about the Old Law (the 613 Commands of the Old Testament or the Law of Moses). Paul is not referring to all Law. Romans 3:1 says, "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" Paul even says in Galatians 5:2, "Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." So Paul was arguing against "Circumcision Salvationism." Circumcision is a part of the commands in the Old Testament and not the New Testament. Besides wouldn't even make sense to say you are not under any Law (salvation wise). For are you not under this Law or Commandment in regards to your salvation?

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment." (1 John 3:23).

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Again, these verses do not help you but they work against what you believe. When you read 1 John 3:10 we learn that he that does not righteousness is not of God. 1 John 3:15 says he that does not love their brother does not have eternal life abiding in them. Yes, I am paraphrasing what the verses say. But if you were to look at these verses, that is what they say.

Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Again, 1 John 1:7 says he that walks in the light as he [Christ] is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses you from all sin. So in order to not have sin imputed to you, you have to WALK in the light of Christ. You have to walk in God's righteous ways or keep His commandments.

neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

John 3:20 says all who do evil hate the light unless they come to the light [Jesus] and allow their deeds to be reproved (i.e. they repent of their sins, - they ask for forgiveness of their sins - along with the fruits of repentance - which is forsaking sin). Titus 2:11-12 essentially says that the true grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and to live soberly, righteously, and Godly in this present world. Jude 1:4 NIV says there are those who turn God's grace into a license for immorality.

John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This is where salvation starts. It is not talking about continuing in the Lord and His good ways (Which is the next natural step or stage in the salvation process as a part of abidng in Christ). It would be a forced strain on the text to make this say that it is talking about the process of Sanctification, too.

2 Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
Christ crucified!

Again, this is talking about Initial Salvation or Ultimate Salvation. In 1st Timoty, we learn the following,

11 "But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life." (1 Timothy 6:11-12).

Lay hold on eternal life by fighting the good fight of faith? How does that make sense with your belief?

1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

How ironic. You use a verse that defeats your own belief. So you are under this Law salvation wise in 1 John 3:23, right? Okay, so if you are under the commandment or law that says to believe on Jesus in relation to your salvation then, how can you also say you are not under all Law? You are either under some kind of Law (salvation wise) or you are not.

Love God, love your neighbor.

Yep. Not doing this is a salvation issue. See 1 John 3:15 and Matthew 25.

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

And faith without works is dead (James 2:17). A dead faith cannot access the saving grace of God that is a free gift.

Romans 3:18-24 There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Again, read Romans 3:1. What Law is Paul talking about?
Also, if you believe that even the faithful saint is under sin and fallen short of God's glory, then how do you explain Romans 3:11? It says that they are without understanding and do not seek after God, too. So is the faithful saint without understanding and do they not seek after God?

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If. If. If. It's a condition and not a guarantee. You do this and then this happens.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
We trust in Christ and His work.

No. Again, it says WALK in the light. It does not say believe on the light.

Anyways, I gotta run.
I will try and reply to the other verses you posted later.

May God bless you.
And please be well.

With loving kindness to you in Christ.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.



...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Jason0047

See here please... I'd like to see a post from you in this thread...

What is your reason for wanting to be, or to thinking you are, "perfect"...?

And here...

Perfection or no?

Perfection or no?

Did you provide explanations to the verses I posted?
See, that is how normal discussions about the truth of God's Word works.
it is not all one sided to the verses you prefer to see alone.
You have to actually explain the verses that I have brought forth.
Otherwise it looks like you are just looking at one set of verses in the Bible while you are ignoring others. So I will leave you to seek out a way to explain away the straight forward meaning of the verses I have put forth.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Again, I do not believe it is ultimately myself doing the good work when I am in obedience to God's commands in the New Testament. I believe it is Christ doing the good work through me. So I cannot pat myself on the back and tell others that I am saving myself of my own power alone. The good fruits in my life are the fruits of God and or Christ. For only God alone is good.

As for the Law: Paul is talking about the Old Law here and not the New Law. If you were to read Philippians 3:5-7, Paul recounts his experience as a Jew under the Old Law within the false Pharisee religion and not the New Law and he says he counts being a part of such old ways as loss for the cause of Christ. This makes sense because the Law had changed (Hebrews 7:12). The Law changed when the Covenant changed with Christ's death upon the cross. It's why the temple veil was torn from top to bottom, letting us know that the laws on animal sacrifices and the old priesthood was no more. The Old Covenant no longer applies. But that does not mean we are not under commands or laws under the New Covenant salvation wise (See Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 25:31-46, 1 John 3:15).

The righteousness in God by faith would include trusting in what God or Jesus tells us to do. For faith without works is dead. At the end of Romans 4 we learn how that Abraham had righteousness imputed to him by him also performing, too. 1 John 1:7 says if we WALK in the light as he (Christ) is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. So you have to walk. Walk. Walk. Walk in the light of Christ in order for the blood to cleanse you. That is what 1 John 1:7 essentially says.

Anyways, I will try and reply to more of you had written later.
May God bless you.
And please be well.



...

 

[bling]

Your goal should be to remain in Christ, let Him cover you. Your change will come. It will not happen in this flesh.

In Christ
Daniel

All mature adults have sinned in the past, but do true Christians have to sin in the future?
The future can be just 60 seconds, so can a Christian keep from sinning for 60 seconds?
What benefit do you receive from not sinning in the near future?

I use to teach that Christians cannot really keep from sinning, but just do better than the nonbeliever and are forgiven, but when I taught a group of fanatic Christians in youth prison, I changed my thinking. These 42 guys had a really good reason not to show a hint of insincerity. They slept in barracks together with at least one staying up all night praying over them so they could sleep (some were threaten with being smashed in the head every night. They never were alone, they witnessed to everyone, they did not let their guard down for a moment, they jumped between those being beaten and can bruised/broken every Sunday , since they were constantly being watched by the snitches for any sign they were doing something less than what Christ Himself would do, because the snitches would let the bulls know of any "weak" member that would possible submit to being their slave (mostly sex slave) without dying for the cause.
These guys did not talk about being "sinless", but about constantly doing what Christ would do with every minute they had. They were much greater students of the word than I was and the Spirit was with them.

 

[Dan61861]

Again, I do not believe it is ultimately myself doing the good work when I am in obedience to God's commands in the New Testament. I believe it is Christ doing the good work through me. So I cannot pat myself on the back and tell others that I am saving myself of my own power alone. The good fruits in my life are the fruits of God and or Christ. For only God alone is good.



...

That is exactly what the Pharisee did. It was God that did it in him. He gave all the credit to God.

That is why I told you to study this parable.

Luke 18:11-12
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

It is exactly what these people did, All in the Lord's name. They even did wonderful works in His name. Yet they weren't like the publican, pounding his chest.

Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Psalms 105:39 He spread a cloud for a covering; and fire to give light in the night.

Jesus is our covering, He is a consuming fire, the light in the night.

Rest in Christ Jason, He has done it all for you.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That is exactly what the Pharisee did. It was God that did it in him. He gave all the credit to God.

That is why I told you to study this parable.

Luke 18:11-12
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

It is exactly what these people did, All in the Lord's name. They even did wonderful works in His name. Yet they weren't like the publican, pounding his chest.

No. in the Parable of the Tax Collector, the Pharisee was not giving God the credit. He was despising the sinner instead of humbling himself in getting his heart right with God. For the Pharisee did not humble himself and repent. He was not said to be humble. The Parable of the Tax Collector merely teaches the first stage or step in salvation (Justification). It is not talking about the process of Sanctification. No true believer will despise those who struggle with sin. Believers are called to love and pray for their enemies and do good unto them. The problem is that the Pharisee did not love and did not get his heart right with God by asking the Lord for forgiveness. It is not saying what you are suggesting it says. Show me the specific words in the Parable where it states that the Pharisee believed God was working in Him? It doesn't. Do you not know that the Scriptures teach that it is the Lord who works in believers? Jesus had a problem with the Pharisees because they did not keep God's laws and not because they did not just have a mere belief on him alone.

Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Is there a reason you did not quote Matthew 7:21 and Matthew 7:26-27?
Surely because they condemn your belief here.
Jesus's point in casting out the one who did wonderful works is because they also worked sin or iniquity along with those good works. It was not because they just did good works alone.
Matthew 7:21 says that not everyone who says unto me Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven but he that does the will of the Father.
1 Thessalonians 4:3 tells us the will of God (the Father) is to be holy or it is our Sanctification.
Matthew 7:26-27 says he that does not DO what Jesus says is likened unto a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. The house is the body.

Think man.
God is good.
He is not evil; And He will not allow His people to do evil.


...

 

[Truthfrees]

MOD HAT

Off topic posts have been removed

 

[TheSeabass]

Law-keeping CAN'T be imperfect. It's KEEPING the law.

Sin exists because people do not keep God's laws perfectly.

 

[TheSeabass]

And such WERE some of you. If the brethren Paul had written to had still stolen on occasion or murdered on occasion, then Paul could not say, and such WERE some of you.

That would be like saying you WERE a police officer but you are still a police officer on occasion. Such a thing would be a contradiction. You either WERE a police officer (past tense) or not. John says he that says he knows Him (Jesus) and does not keep His commandments is a liar and truth is not in Him. Who determines what practicing sin is? What constitues living in sin? Is it committing sin every day or every week or every month? Every two weeks? Who determines what lines is crossed on who is living in sin or who is practing sin versus just doing sin on occasion? See, one is in darkness even if they claim to know Jesus and yet break even one command. 1 John 1:6 and 1 John 2:4 are clear on this. Jesus says if you do not forgive you will not be forgiven. Adam caused a separation between mankind and God by just one sin. So no. It does not take lots of sin to separate you from God. It only takes one sin.

When Paul said "such were some of you" he was speaking to the Corinthian's condition in the past before they became Christians. Yet the problem in Corinth were they, at lest for some of them, were going back to committing sins (fornication, idolatry, etc) which Paul was correcting in his epistle to them. In chpt 6 Paul tells them "Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren." The Christians there were doing wrong and defrauding each other. Paul then reminds them of the sins (such were some of you) they had come out of that yet some were getting back into again.

Living in sin is when a Christian continues in a particular sin impenitently. If a person was living in adultery, but converted to Christianity, then he cannot continue to live in adultery but must repent of it by coming out of that sinful state and remain out of it.

A person who abides in Christ cannot commit sin. This means while you abide in Christ it is not possible to sin. Christ will leave a person if He knows they will commit sin and He will then convict them to repent so as to restore the relationship. Sin is separation from God. A person who has the seed of Christ abiding in them and they are born again spiritually cannot sin in that state. It is only when they come into a state of darkness (outside of fellowship of Christ) and the old man whereby they can be enticed and sin. For what fellowship does light have with darkness?

It most certainly is possible that one in Christ can sin. He deceives himself if he thinks he has no sin, 1 John 1"7-10. In 1 Cor 1:2 Paul addressed the church in Corinth "...Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus,...".
Though they were "in Christ Jesus" they still had committed sins, Paul wrote his epistle to instruct them in correcting and repenting of those sins else he would condemned them. They were still in a saved condition when Paul wrote them this letter but would not stay that way if the did not repent.

1 John 3:9 has 'cannot' in the present tense which means a Christian cannot CONTINUE living in sin impenitently. The law may say one CANNOT drive over 55mph but that does not mean it is IMPOSSIBLE for a person to drive over 55mph. As God's law says one CANNOT lie or steal does mean it is IMPOSSIBLE for one to lie or steal. 1 John 1:7 says IF the Christian CONTINUES to walk in the light then the blood of Christ CONTINUES to wash away all sins. So when the Christian does commit a sin he will not fall away from Christ nor does Christ leave that Christian ""IF"" he continues to walk in the light for all his sins will be forgiven on a continual bases by staying in the light.

Surely Christians can sin. I was merely saying that Christians who mature in the faith will not be enslaved to sin in this life.

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Now above you just posted "A person who abides in Christ cannot commit sin. This means while you abide in Christ it is not possible to sin. "

So above you said it is NOT POSSIBLE for the Christian to sin. But here you say "Surely Christians can sin"

So can a Christian sin or is it NOT POSSIBLE for the Christian to sin?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

When Paul said "such were some of you" he was speaking to the Corinthian's condition in the past before they became Christians. Yet the problem in Corinth were they, at lest for some of them, were going back to committing sins (fornication, idolatry, etc) which Paul was correcting in his epistle to them. In chpt 6 Paul tells them "Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren." The Christians there were doing wrong and defrauding each other. Paul then reminds them of the sins (such were some of you) they had come out of that yet some were getting back into again.

Living in sin is when a Christian continues in a particular sin impenitently. If a person was living in adultery, but converted to Christianity, then he cannot continue to live in adultery but must repent of it by coming out of that sinful state and remain out of it.




It most certainly is possible that one in Christ can sin. He deceives himself if he thinks he has no sin, 1 John 1"7-10. In 1 Cor 1:2 Paul addressed the church in Corinth "...Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus,...".
Though they were "in Christ Jesus" they still had committed sins, Paul wrote his epistle to instruct them in correcting and repenting of those sins else he would condemned them. They were still in a saved condition when Paul wrote them this letter but would not stay that way if the did not repent.

1 John 3:9 has 'cannot' in the present tense which means a Christian cannot CONTINUE living in sin impenitently. The law may say one CANNOT drive over 55mph but that does not mean it is IMPOSSIBLE for a person to drive over 55mph. As God's law says one CANNOT lie or steal does mean it is IMPOSSIBLE for one to lie or steal. 1 John 1:7 says IF the Christian CONTINUES to walk in the light then the blood of Christ CONTINUES to wash away all sins. So when the Christian does commit a sin he will not fall away from Christ nor does Christ leave that Christian ""IF"" he continues to walk in the light for all his sins will be forgiven on a continual bases by staying in the light.




Now above you just posted "A person who abides in Christ cannot commit sin. This means while you abide in Christ it is not possible to sin. "

So above you said it is NOT POSSIBLE for the Christian to sin. But here you say "Surely Christians can sin"

So can a Christian sin or is it NOT POSSIBLE for the Christian to sin?

I am not saying Christians cannot sin. They simply cannot sin while abiding in Christ. If they choose to sin, Christ is not with them in that moment of sin anymore, but they are of the devil (1 John 3:8). For what fellowship does light have with darkness? Think of it like this.

Darkness is just the absence of light. Light is not something that co-exists alongside darkness. There is no waves of darkness that creep into a room. Sin is just the absence of God's holiness or righteousness. If somebody chooses to walk away from God, it is their choice and Christ (Who is light) cannot be a party to that decision. He cannot have intimate union with someone who sins because He is holy, righteous, and good. So a person needs to repent and get their heart right with God again.

John is not saying that it is impossible for born again people to sin. He is saying what you are ought not to do. He is saying, "you cannot sin" because you are a born again child of God. Children of the Kingdom are associated with the light of God and not darkness. They have different desires then those of this world or those who are abiding in sin. Yes, even just one sin. That is all it takes. One sin can separate a believer from God. Not just many sins. For John is saying a person cannot commit sin while the seed of Christ remains in them. For a good tree (Christ) cannot bring forth bad fruit (and vise versa).


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[rjs330]

This is simply not true.

Jesus says, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48).

James says, “If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.” (James 3:2).

The author of Hebrews says, “Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:20-21).

Sinless Perfectionism is the goal for a believer’s life. For Paul says, “Not that I have already obtained it [this goal of being Christlike] or have already been made perfect, but I actively press on so that I may take hold of that [perfection] for which Christ Jesus took hold of me and made me His own.” (Philippians 3:12 AMP).

Jesus says, “The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.” (Luke 6:40).

Paul says, “Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” (Colossians 4:12).

Paul says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

James says, “But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.” (James 1:4).

James also says, ““Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” (James 2:22).

Jesus says, ““Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.” (Revelation 3:2).

Paul says, “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).

Paul says, “And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love for one another and for all men, even as we do for you. To this end may He establish your hearts to be blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” (1 Thessalonians 3:12-13 MEV).

Paul says, “This work must continue until we are all joined together in the same faith [or all reach unity in the faith] and in the same knowledge of the Son of God. We must become like a mature person [or the perfect Man; Christ], growing until we become like Christ and have his perfection [ to the measure of the stature of Christ’s fullness ].” (Ephesians 4:13 EXB).

Paul says, “It is he whom we proclaim, admonishing everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone perfect in Christ” (Colossians 1:28 NABRE).

Paul says, “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

Paul says, “...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish” (Ephesians 5:25-27).

Paul says, “That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.” (Philippians 2:15).

John says, “But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5).

Real world example:

An alcoholic can condone his alcohol by him saying he can drink occasionally on his way to being sober free. But he will never be sober free because he has no intention of stopping.

If GOD is perfect in all He does, then why cannot GOD perfect a believer while they still live?

Are they saying they are more powerful than GOD?

For why would a person want to continue in sin on any level?
For if a person knew of a way to stop sinning so as to please God, why would they not want to take that chance?

For would not the opposite of Sinless Perfectionism be Sinful Imperfectionism? Is there such a thing as a “sinning saint”? What about a righteous sinner?

But some will object and say they believe that they are for living righteously. But how much should one live righteously? Are we to live righteously at about 90%? How about 80%? 75%? 20%? Is there a percentage that we do not cross the line at?

In other words, a person cannot be perfect as Jesus commands of them if they are thinking they will always sin in this life as a part of some uncontrollable sin nature. The word "perfect" is tied many times to a particular righteous action and not to just having a belief on Jesus.



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Sorry Jason your understanding is way to shallow and misaligned. I just can't converse with you on this stuff. It like you use a topical Bible and just quote stuff out if it without really understanding the totality of scripture. We won't be having any conversations anymore.

 

[rjs330]

When Paul said "such were some of you" he was speaking to the Corinthian's condition in the past before they became Christians. Yet the problem in Corinth were they, at lest for some of them, were going back to committing sins (fornication, idolatry, etc) which Paul was correcting in his epistle to them. In chpt 6 Paul tells them "Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren." The Christians there were doing wrong and defrauding each other. Paul then reminds them of the sins (such were some of you) they had come out of that yet some were getting back into again.

Living in sin is when a Christian continues in a particular sin impenitently. If a person was living in adultery, but converted to Christianity, then he cannot continue to live in adultery but must repent of it by coming out of that sinful state and remain out of it.




It most certainly is possible that one in Christ can sin. He deceives himself if he thinks he has no sin, 1 John 1"7-10. In 1 Cor 1:2 Paul addressed the church in Corinth "...Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus,...".
Though they were "in Christ Jesus" they still had committed sins, Paul wrote his epistle to instruct them in correcting and repenting of those sins else he would condemned them. They were still in a saved condition when Paul wrote them this letter but would not stay that way if the did not repent.

1 John 3:9 has 'cannot' in the present tense which means a Christian cannot CONTINUE living in sin impenitently. The law may say one CANNOT drive over 55mph but that does not mean it is IMPOSSIBLE for a person to drive over 55mph. As God's law says one CANNOT lie or steal does mean it is IMPOSSIBLE for one to lie or steal. 1 John 1:7 says IF the Christian CONTINUES to walk in the light then the blood of Christ CONTINUES to wash away all sins. So when the Christian does commit a sin he will not fall away from Christ nor does Christ leave that Christian ""IF"" he continues to walk in the light for all his sins will be forgiven on a continual bases by staying in the light.




Now above you just posted "A person who abides in Christ cannot commit sin. This means while you abide in Christ it is not possible to sin. "

So above you said it is NOT POSSIBLE for the Christian to sin. But here you say "Surely Christians can sin"

So can a Christian sin or is it NOT POSSIBLE for the Christian to sin?

You have it correct. And don't buy Jason's thoughts on John. He has been shown over and over again where he is wrong but he persists anyway. Your understanding of the Greek tenses and Thier meaning is spot on.

 

[Neogaia777]

Did you provide explanations to the verses I posted?
See, that is how normal discussions about the truth of God's Word works.
it is not all one sided to the verses you prefer to see alone.
You have to actually explain the verses that I have brought forth.
Otherwise it looks like you are just looking at one set of verses in the Bible while you are ignoring others. So I will leave you to seek out a way to explain away the straight forward meaning of the verses I have put forth.


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Your asking me to hours (or more) worth of work, I just don't want to put that much into it, when I know what is true....

Peace,

Don't work yourself to death Jason...

God Bless!

 

[sparow]

So do you reject the divinity of Jesus? I ask because Ebionites who reject Paul also reject the divinity of Jesus. Anyways, there is no point in talking about the BIble then if you do not believe in all of it.
It is not the holey bible like a piece of swiss cheese. It is the Holy Bible that is divine and perfect.


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I hope you do not think your knowledge base is complete. I would say Jesus is divine; I would say Paul is not divine; but I use the dictionary to determine divinity; I expect you to use special religious Jargon.

The Bible is paper and ink and these could be unclean, not knowing what they are made from; the OT was certified by Jesus, beginning with his showing up at the right time; the NT can only be certified by the OT, that is they have to be in agreement, and they form two witnesses. Paul does not have the two witnesses, he has only his own testimony like Mohammad.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sorry Jason your understanding is way to shallow and misaligned. I just can't converse with you on this stuff. It like you use a topical Bible and just quote stuff out if it without really understanding the totality of scripture. We won't be having any conversations anymore.

No. It is called, people ignoring Scripture in what it plainly says. It is why everyone who is against the word "perfection" in relation to righteous actions as mentioned in the BIble (like James 3:2, Matthew 19:21, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Luke 6:40, etc.) are not explaining what these verses actually mean. They cannot explain them. If they try to change what they say, they will simply look silly for trying to change something so obvious in God's Word.

The plain and simple truth is people do not like God's Word in all of what it says.
So they either ignore it, or they seek to change it.
Show me I am wrong and explain the verses I brought forth.
Make it so obvious to any reader by pointing out the context that the word "perfect" is not tied to righteous action. Point out to us how the word "perfect" does not mean "perfect" by pointing to the context. But we both know you cannot do that. Hence, why you are ending this conversation in frustration.


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