Perfect symmetrical things in nature

[Atheuz]

This is one of my major problems with Evolution, so I thought I'd ask here.

If we look at Leonardo Da Vinci's Vitruvian Man and man in general we find that:

• a palm is the width of four fingers
• a foot is the width of four palms (and is 12 inch)
• a cubit is the width of six palms
• a man's height is four cubits (and thus 24 palms)
• a pace is four cubits
• the length of a man's outspread arms is equal to his height
• the distance from the hairline to the bottom of the chin is one-tenth of a man's height
• the distance from the top of the head to the bottom of the chin is one-eighth of a man's height
• the maximum width of the shoulders is a quarter of a man's height
• the distance from the elbow to the tip of the hand is one-fifth of a man's height
• the distance from the elbow to the armpit is one-eighth of a man's height
• the length of the hand is one-tenth of a man's height
• the distance from the bottom of the chin to the nose is one-third of the length of the head
• the distance from the hairline to the eyebrows is one-third of the length of the face
• the length of the ear is one-third of the length of the face

Nearly every bodypart of the human body is connected to other bodyparts, how can random mutations create such perfect symmetrical products without it having some kind of 'goal'. Is this all because of Natural Selection?

 

[metherion]

You missed one. (I think). IIRC, your foot is the length of the muscle on the underside of your forearm. The one pressed against your hip when your arms are down at your sides.

Ahem. Anyways, about the symmtery bit. Try looking at it another way.

Where is the best placement for this particular piece? What are the best dimensions for this particular piece? Perhaps an ear 1/3 the length of our face is best (or at least good enough to be passed along) at gathering sound? Perhaps four fingers is the best- selected width of the palms, especially seeing as how the four fingers on top of it are connected straight up and down to the top of it? I mean, with that positioning it's really hard for the palm to be anything BUT 4 fingers wide.

And some of the others are just coincidence, and the fact that we use base 10. Try using base 7 and see if the fractions are so neat. Or base 42.

Just some random thoughts.

Metherion

 

[Herman Hedning]

What metherion said. Also, all of that may be true for the perfectly symmetrical da Vinci drawing, but hardly for man in general. In case you haven't noticed there are tall people with small feet, short people with big feet, stout people with long arms, big-faced people with tiny ears ... the variations go on and on.

 

[metherion]

And also more variations even on symmetrical bits, like left to right arm or hand. For instance, above the knuckle, my left thumb is half the size of my right thumb, about a good 3/4 centimeter.

Metherion

 

[RealityCheck]

This is one of my major problems with Evolution, so I thought I'd ask here.

If we look at Leonardo Da Vinci's Vitruvian Man and man in general we find that:

• a palm is the width of four fingers
• a foot is the width of four palms (and is 12 inch)
• a cubit is the width of six palms
• a man's height is four cubits (and thus 24 palms)
• a pace is four cubits
• the length of a man's outspread arms is equal to his height
• the distance from the hairline to the bottom of the chin is one-tenth of a man's height
• the distance from the top of the head to the bottom of the chin is one-eighth of a man's height
• the maximum width of the shoulders is a quarter of a man's height
• the distance from the elbow to the tip of the hand is one-fifth of a man's height
• the distance from the elbow to the armpit is one-eighth of a man's height
• the length of the hand is one-tenth of a man's height
• the distance from the bottom of the chin to the nose is one-third of the length of the head
• the distance from the hairline to the eyebrows is one-third of the length of the face
• the length of the ear is one-third of the length of the face

Nearly every bodypart of the human body is connected to other bodyparts, how can random mutations create such perfect symmetrical products without it having some kind of 'goal'. Is this all because of Natural Selection?

Might be more of an argument if every man were like this man, without variation.

 

[jwu]

If you search long enough, then you find plenty of such correlations almost everywhere. And of course they don't apply to anyone, and the accuracy of measurement is important.

Such lists of correlations usually also leave out all those other possible correlations which do not occur.

a foot is the width of four palms (and is 12 inch)

12 inches? How come there are different sizes of shoe then even for full grown adults?

I didn't try all of them, but those five which i checked out are all completely wrong in my case.

E.g. according to "the distance from the elbow to the tip of the hand is one-fifth of a man's height" i should be 2.1 meters tall when i actually am 1.83 meters tall.

According to "the distance from the elbow to the armpit is one-eighth of a man's height" i should be 2 meters tall,
2,25 meters according to "the length of the hand is one-tenth of a man's height".

 

[gamespotter10]

This is one of my major problems with Evolution, so I thought I'd ask here.

If we look at Leonardo Da Vinci's Vitruvian Man and man in general we find that:

• a palm is the width of four fingers
• a foot is the width of four palms (and is 12 inch)
• a cubit is the width of six palms
• a man's height is four cubits (and thus 24 palms)
• a pace is four cubits
• the length of a man's outspread arms is equal to his height
• the distance from the hairline to the bottom of the chin is one-tenth of a man's height
• the distance from the top of the head to the bottom of the chin is one-eighth of a man's height
• the maximum width of the shoulders is a quarter of a man's height
• the distance from the elbow to the tip of the hand is one-fifth of a man's height
• the distance from the elbow to the armpit is one-eighth of a man's height
• the length of the hand is one-tenth of a man's height
• the distance from the bottom of the chin to the nose is one-third of the length of the head
• the distance from the hairline to the eyebrows is one-third of the length of the face
• the length of the ear is one-third of the length of the face

Nearly every bodypart of the human body is connected to other bodyparts, how can random mutations create such perfect symmetrical products without it having some kind of 'goal'. Is this all because of Natural Selection?

that's why I believe that God guided the process of evolution to make us(homo sapiens sapiens)

 

[Raydon]

that's why I believe that God guided the process of evolution to make us(homo sapiens sapiens)

And what of the fact that there's no evidence for god?

You've got an argument from incredulity going on here. Read more about evolution and you'll see that things like this are expected from it, without the need for a cosmic dictator.

I hope TheBear is right when he says that this is just a phase you're going through, you showed much promise, you were 10 years ahead of me!

 

[Meiri]

The most primitive multicellular organisms that we descended from were bilaterally symmetric, so it makes sense that we would inherit that symmetry.

In other words, our ancestors were very symmetric, so we are very symmetric.

 

[Vene]

As far as actual symmetry is concerned (not parts of the body being in ratio to each other), it isn't. Sure, there is some, two arms, two legs, two eyes, ect, but the body cavity isn't. The liver is on the right side of the body and the stomach is on the left side. If I recall correctly the heart is sightly to the left as well.

Though I think Meiri gave good reasoning for the rest of the symmetry.

 

[gamespotter10]

And what of the fact that there's no evidence for god?

You've got an argument from incredulity going on here. Read more about evolution and you'll see that things like this are expected from it, without the need for a cosmic dictator.

I hope TheBear is right when he says that this is just a phase you're going through, you showed much promise, you were 10 years ahead of me!

I think good and evil and right and wrong are evidence for the God hypothesis

 

[Vene]

I think good and evil and right and wrong are evidence for the God hypothesis

And those concepts have absolutely nothing to do with people living in a society. Having a type of code for people to live by is in no way essential for a beneficial society.
Plus, not all societies have the same concept of right and wrong and good and evil. If Jehovah instilled these beliefs wouldn't they be absolutes that exist throughout the world? Or does he think certain people are beneath his teachings?

 

[thaumaturgy]

• a palm is the width of four fingers
• a foot is the width of four palms (and is 12 inch)
• a cubit is the width of six palms

There are an infinite number of numbers. Why does it make a difference if a foot is the width of four palms? Are you saying that if a foot was the width of 5 palms you would'nt believe God had anything to do with it?

4.5 palms?

• a man's height is four cubits (and thus 24 palms)
• a pace is four cubits

So a human can take two steps roughly equal to his or her height? This is proof of something?

• the length of a man's outspread arms is equal to his height

If I find a pterydactyl whose outspread wingspan was twice his "height", would that make him "greater" than man? What if I find a fly whose outspread wingspan is 1/2 his height? Greater or less than?

• the distance from the hairline to the bottom of the chin is one-tenth of a man's height

Unless the man has a receding hairline. But again, what if this number were 9? Would you then see it as non-miraculous?

• the distance from the top of the head to the bottom of the chin is one-eighth of a man's height

Wait! We started off talking about 4ths, then 10th's now 8ths? I guess we are circling around even numbers, but not very interesting.

• the maximum width of the shoulders is a quarter of a man's height
• the distance from the elbow to the tip of the hand is one-fifth of a man's height

OK, now we've gone to 1/5ths. I'm not seeing a pattern here.

• the distance from the elbow to the armpit is one-eighth of a man's height
• the length of the hand is one-tenth of a man's height
• the distance from the bottom of the chin to the nose is one-third of the length of the head

What about the distance between the second knuckle and the first on the pinky and its relationship to the lenth of the long-axis of the patellar bone? I bet that's also a number.

Nearly every bodypart of the human body is connected to other bodyparts, how can random mutations create such perfect symmetrical products without it having some kind of 'goal'. Is this all because of Natural Selection?

So is the goal of Creation to make an animal that has lengths of parts that are some fraction of the lenght of other parts? Because the same can be said of all things on the planet and in the universe.

In fact it can be said that there is no way for something which has more than one part to have those parts not related by some fractional mathematical relationship.

This is proof?

 

[Atheuz]

In fact it can be said that there is no way for something which has more than one part to have those parts not related by some fractional mathematical relationship.

This is proof?

No, I know Evolution happened. I just found it odd that there are so many things in the human body that seemed connected as if one mutation alters other body parts or other body parts control mutations to fit.

 

[Raydon]

I think good and evil and right and wrong are evidence for the God hypothesis

Who defines good and evil? We do! Come on, you must have heard this argument before? Slavery (or genocide etc etc) in the Bible. We think slavery is wrong. Therefore we disagree with god. Therefore we decide what is right and wrong. Therefore a (non-existant) god didn't decide what's good and evil.

That's the most basic of basic arguments against your position.

Also, a pre-emptive strike if you say that god gave us this ability to decide what is right and wrong (despite the fact it leads us to disagree with him). God supposedly gave Moses the 10 commandments to tell us what we could and couldn't do, including killing. Are you telling me that Moses and the rest of them didn't know that killing was wrong up until this point? Their society wouldn't function if they didn't, yet the bible says that god had to explicitly tell them via the commandments.

Using your non-god given noggin', this is plainly nonsense.

 

[Chalnoth]

that's why I believe that God guided the process of evolution to make us(homo sapiens sapiens)

So, what method did he use? Selective breeding? Or did he just kill a lot of people? And what happened to our cousin species who went extinct, such as the Neanderthal? Did God just not like them enough?

 

[gamespotter10]

And those concepts have absolutely nothing to do with people living in a society. Having a type of code for people to live by is in no way essential for a beneficial society.
Plus, not all societies have the same concept of right and wrong and good and evil. If Jehovah instilled these beliefs wouldn't they be absolutes that exist throughout the world? Or does he think certain people are beneath his teachings?

you think the morality among different people's and cultures varies, but it doesn't

has there ever been a society which admired people who ran away from battle because of his cowardice? no. Has any society ever admired people who double-crossed people who cared for him most?

 

[Vene]

you think the morality among different people's and cultures varies, but it doesn't

has there ever been a society which admired people who ran away from battle because of his cowardice? no. Has any society ever admired people who double-crossed people who cared for him most?

Because these traits have no benefit for the society. A man who deserts his comrades in arms has no value in protecting their land from invaders. Cultures don't value those who double-cross because you can't rely on that individual for anything.

How about this, why is it that in India a third gender is recognized, but that doesn't happen in European based cultures?

 

[Chalnoth]

you think the morality among different people's and cultures varies, but it doesn't

So what? Evolution explains this perfectly: morality is a necessary survival trait for a social species. And evolutionarily speaking, all of mankind is exceedingly homogeneous.

has there ever been a society which admired people who ran away from battle because of his cowardice? no. Has any society ever admired people who double-crossed people who cared for him most?

For a more interesting question, you should ask why humans don't like to organize themselves into alpha male type societies, like lions and gorillas. There are different moral systems that work well for other species, after all. But whatever configuration morality takes, it has to be a system that promotes the survival of the species. Otherwise it can never evolve.

 

[corvus_corax]

This is one of my major problems with Evolution, so I thought I'd ask here.

If we look at Leonardo Da Vinci's Vitruvian Man and man in general we find that:

A drawing by Da Vinci is one of your major problems with Evolutionary theory?
How odd that is, that a drawing is one of your major problems

a palm is the width of four fingers

Actually, my palm is slightly wider than my four fingers.
So, based on this "non-symmetry", you shouldn't have a problem with evolution, right?

a foot is the width of four palms (and is 12 inch)

Not even close

a cubit is the width of six palms...
...a man's height is four cubits (and thus 24 palms)
...a pace is four cubits

Do something that nobody (that I know of) has done to date- give an exact length for "cubit".
At least define it before using it in an OP that has "problems" with evolution.

the length of a man's outspread arms is equal to his height

Actually, my outstretched arms are 1/2 inch shorter than my height
So, based on this "non-symmetry", you shouldn't have a problem with evolution, right?

the distance from the hairline to the bottom of the chin is one-tenth of a man's height

According to this, I should be 7.083 feet tall.
Oddly, Im only 5'10"
So, based on this "non-symmetry", you shouldn't have a problem with evolution, right?

the distance from the top of the head to the bottom of the chin is one-eighth of a man's height

See my last comment.

the maximum width of the shoulders is a quarter of a man's height

Apparently this doesn't work for women, as my wife should, according to your statement, be only 5'3". She's 5'5".
So, based on this "non-symmetry", you shouldn't have a problem with evolution, right?

the distance from the elbow to the tip of the hand is one-fifth of a man's height

Then I should be 7.291 feet tall.
Again, Im not
So, based on this "non-symmetry", you shouldn't have a problem with evolution, right?

the distance from the elbow to the armpit is one-eighth of a man's height

The middle of the armpit, or the outside area closest to the elbow?
If the middle, I should be 8.6 feet tall
So, based on this "non-symmetry", you shouldn't have a problem with evolution, right?

the length of the hand is one-tenth of a man's height

This one's closer at least, but it still states that I should be 6.25 feet tall.
Im not.
So, based on this "non-symmetry", you shouldn't have a problem with evolution, right?

how can random mutations create such perfect symmetrical products.....

Perfect symmety?
Sorry, that's not working in the real world.

So, based upon the non-perfect symmetry of real humans (as opposed to an idealized drawing), you no longer have any problems with evolution, right?