Peeling the TULIP

[Rafael]

Hi BRAS

Let me ask you this then . . in the way you see it, what is faith? Is it something that comes from us? Is it something we do apart from God?


Peace in Him!

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[Rafael]

I do not know where they went. I like Edwards also. I am a lot like him. That is he loved to read the Bible then go out into nature and meditate on it. He did his best thinking on his walks in the woods. I am not the genius that he was though.

I also like Edwards books. Do any here like Arthur Custance and his book "The Sovereignty of Grace"? His books are available for free download and very interesting. http://www.custance.org/
Arthur Pink is also one I have learned from by his books. "Practical Christianity" and his exposition of Hebrews are old starters for me. I'm not sure how "cool" his life was, but it was interesting and there is a small book about the life of Pink. His exposition on Hebrews is considered by some to be the best - or that is what I have heard, and after reading thought highly of it. He was one to preach God's sovereignty.

 

[Gamecock]

I thought that those who are into new worship and faith were going to tear the petals off of historic Protestanism. Where did they go? All I see are those who think Calvin is cool. I lean more toward Edwards and the Puritans. I keeping meaning to one of these days read Piper's A Godward Life about Edwards view of the Christian life.

I am part of a new PCA Church Plant. It is awesome to see how many college kids we have in out little church.

They are there just to worship and praise God in the Orthodox Reformed manner.

They tell me that they are there because the are tired of a lot of the nonsense they see in churches these days.

Mayne it is a trend..

If you are ever around a PCA plant, check it and and see if it unfolds the same way. Esp if it is near a college...

 

[rnmomof7]

I am part of a new PCA Church Plant. It is awesome to see how many college kids we have in out little church.

They are there just to worship and praise God in the Orthodox Reformed manner.

They tell me that they are there because the are tired of a lot of the nonsense they see in churches these days.

Mayne it is a trend..

If you are ever around a PCA plant, check it and and see if it unfolds the same way. Esp if it is near a college...

Piper's main church is in Minneapolis , he has a "plant " near the college in St.Paul

My son tells me that Piper draws 400 on a Sunday there. They shut it down in the Summer as it is almost exclusively a student church
Of course the main church is overflowing

I read an article that Calvinism was growing in acceptance with young people.

 

[CCWoody]

I do not know where they went. I like Edwards also. I am a lot like him. That is he loved to read the Bible then go out into nature and meditate on it. He did his best thinking on his walks in the woods. I am not the genius that he was though.

Unfortunately, this forum is way to weak for the full spirit of Edwards. That means that the greatest preacher and theologian America has ever seen wouldn't make it here. Sigh!

I actually do enjoy spending long periods of time away from everything. Usually, I am accompanied by a gun and a dog or a rifle depending upon which season I'm enjoying.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

 

[CCWoody]

I also like Edwards books. Do any here like Arthur Custance and his book "The Sovereignty of Grace"? His books are available for free download and very interesting. http://www.custance.org/
Arthur Pink is also one I have learned from by his books. "Practical Christianity" and his exposition of Hebrews are old starters for me. I'm not sure how "cool" his life was, but it was interesting and there is a small book about the life of Pink. His exposition on Hebrews is considered by some to be the best - or that is what I have heard, and after reading thought highly of it. He was one to preach God's sovereignty.

I have read very little Custance. But, I have read the Sovereignty of God. I wouldn't characterize Pink's life as cool. He was a great teacher and theologian, but aparently, his skills as a pastor were not so good.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

 

[orthedoxy]

Hi everyone
Grace is given by God but we do have to receive it right?
Does God receive salvation for us? does he believe for us? granted we can't come without grace, but we have to receive his grace for salvation.
as to the comment "regeneration comes before faith" that is not scriptural read act 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
john1:12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--
repentance and receiving him comes before regeneration and contradicts the doctrine that says you can't believe unless you are regenerated

 

[reformedfan]

You need to think about this: How could God be omniscient if He didn't control whatsoever comes to pass? Gen. 3:15 would be a guess if He didn't forordain all the details. Look at the Old Testament: many times God predicts the future, who Christ would be born to, where He'd be born, how His life would go, etc. If God didn't control all that, none of it would have happened, every single action by a person would have been like an independant agent, striking out by the power of his own free will. Any 'wrong' step could have canceled out any of it
Anyway, John 10 & Romans 9. TULIP was invented by God, not John Calvin. In the early days of the church, pre-corrupt Catholic I mean, Augustine argued for TULIP. Back then, those who tried to 'prove' it wrong were the heretics. In fact, until the Methodist church embraced Arminianism in the 1800's, it was seen as heretical, with too much emphasis on the sovereignty of man, and Adam-like blaming God for sin (Gen. 3:12)
reformedfan

 

[rnmomof7]

Hi everyone
Grace is given by God but we do have to receive it right?

In order to receive it , it must be the work of another and then given to me.
If I do it myself it is not a gift nor can it be "received"

Does God receive salvation for us? does he believe for us? granted we can't come without grace, but we have to receive his grace for salvation.
as to the comment "regeneration comes before faith" that is not scriptural read act 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

How does that scripture negate regeneration before faith?
Repentance is not self generated it is given to men. Faith to believe is given to men..

A dead man can not see or believe anything. He must be risen from the dead to see , hear and believe.
Men are born spiritually dead and need to be quickened buy the Holy Spirit to hear and respond to the gospel .

john1:12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--
repentance and receiving him comes before regeneration and contradicts the doctrine that says you can't believe unless you are regenerated

Man can not and will not repent repent his sin..it is his natural state.
He is DEAD in his trespass and sin before he is born again from above.
Then God will grant him repentance to salvation .

 

[rnmomof7]

You need to think about this: How could God be omniscient if He didn't control whatsoever comes to pass? Gen. 3:15 would be a guess if He didn't forordain all the details. Look at the Old Testament: many times God predicts the future, who Christ would be born to, where He'd be born, how His life would go, etc. If God didn't control all that, none of it would have happened, every single action by a person would have been like an independant agent, striking out by the power of his own free will. Any 'wrong' step could have canceled out any of it
Anyway, John 10 & Romans 9. TULIP was invented by God, not John Calvin. In the early days of the church, pre-corrupt Catholic I mean, Augustine argued for TULIP. Back then, those who tried to 'prove' it wrong were the heretics. In fact, until the Methodist church embraced Arminianism in the 1800's, it was seen as heretical, with too much emphasis on the sovereignty of man, and Adam-like blaming God for sin (Gen. 3:12)
reformedfan

Welcome reformfan , you have many reform believers here among the brethren.

I have sent some blessings your way this day..be blessed in all ways

 

[orthedoxy]

if we are dead to sin does that mean we can't sin?
does the person that gives the gift opens it for you?

 

[rnmomof7]

if we are dead to sin does that mean we can't sin?
does the person that gives the gift opens it for you?

Well Paul tells us we are dead to sin, do you not believe that we are dead to sin?

It may help to read the scripture in context

*
Jhn 1:12**
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

**
*
Jhn 1:13**
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[sola fide]

I wanted to throw something into this discussion that I think is vital.

I saw that there has been discussion of Eph. 2:8-9, and the nature of grace and faith, so I wanted to write a post about that.

I think Hebrews 11:1 is vital to our understanding of the nature of faith-
"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

Here's a bit of exposition of the first part of that verse.

In Genesis 15 we see God enter into covenant with Abraham. He promises Abraham (Abram) that his offspring will be numerous and that they will inherit a land of their own to dwell in.
In verse 8 Abraham asks a simple question of God concerning this promise-
"O Lord GOD, how am I to know that I shall possess it?"

As an immediate answer to that question, rather that answer with words, God organizes an elaborate demonstration of His faithfulness to that covenant in a ceremony He Himself performs.

But, this question is explicitly answered with words in the New Testament, i.e.
Hebrews 11:1.
The word faith is only used twice in the Old Testament, so we truly need the New Testament to shed light on the meaning of the word.
Hebrews tells us that faith is the "assurance of things hoped for..."
That word, assurance, is so central to understanding the nature of faith.

We also, just as Abraham, are promised a land to dwell in- the true fulfillment of God's promises to Abraham. Truly it is the promised land. Hebrews 11-13 speaks a great deal of this land being the fulfillment of the O.T. saints' hope.

If we are to ask the question of God, just as Abraham did- "O Lord GOD, how am I to know that I shall possess it?" He would surely answer that question along the lones of Hebrews 11:1- "By faith you shall know, faith is the assurance of this hope."

The epistimology of the word assurance goes something like this.
Assurance means a pledge or guarantee. In times past a deed to a house or piece of land, or a title to a car could have been, or perhaps would have been called, an assurance.

Hence, faith is the title deed (assurance) to our inheritance, and the reason for our hope.
In other words- God gives His promise to all who hear the gospel-
"Repent and believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved unto eternal life" (paraphrase).
But this promise is only valid to those who believe (i.e. those appointed to eternal life through Christ).
And how do we know that we are among those that have been appointed to receive this inheritance?- By faith.
God has given us faith, as a gift, to assure us that His promises to us are "yes" and in Christ "amen".

This is not a deed that we could possibly have bought, we are bankrupt in this area, that's where depravity comes in. It is a deed that is given free of charge, no prerequisits. It is the pledge of God given as a gift of, and testimony to His grace and His glory.
Faith is a gift, it is of nothing within ourselves, but must be placed in us by the effectual work of the Holy Spirit through the Word of God.

Grace and peace.

 

[rnmomof7]

I wanted to throw something into this discussion that I think is vital.

I saw that there has been discussion of Eph. 2:8-9, and the nature of grace and faith, so I wanted to write a post about that.

I think Hebrews 11:1 is vital to our understanding of the nature of faith-
"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

Here's a bit of exposition of the first part of that verse.

In Genesis 15 we see God enter into covenant with Abraham. He promises Abraham (Abram) that his offspring will be numerous and that they will inherit a land of their own to dwell in.
In verse 8 Abraham asks a simple question of God concerning this promise-
"O Lord GOD, how am I to know that I shall possess it?"

As an immediate answer to that question, rather that answer with words, God organizes an elaborate demonstration of His faithfulness to that covenant in a ceremony He Himself performs.

But, this question is explicitly answered with words in the New Testament, i.e.
Hebrews 11:1.
The word faith is only used twice in the Old Testament, so we truly need the New Testament to shed light on the meaning of the word.
Hebrews tells us that faith is the "assurance of things hoped for..."
That word, assurance, is so central to understanding the nature of faith.

We also, just as Abraham, are promised a land to dwell in- the true fulfillment of God's promises to Abraham. Truly it is the promised land. Hebrews 11-13 speaks a great deal of this land being the fulfillment of the O.T. saints' hope.

If we are to ask the question of God, just as Abraham did- "O Lord GOD, how am I to know that I shall possess it?" He would surely answer that question along the lones of Hebrews 11:1- "By faith you shall know, faith is the assurance of this hope."

The epistimology of the word assurance goes something like this.
Assurance means a pledge or guarantee. In times past a deed to a house or piece of land, or a title to a car could have been, or perhaps would have been called, an assurance.

Hence, faith is the title deed (assurance) to our inheritance, and the reason for our hope.
In other words- God gives His promise to all who hear the gospel-
"Repent and believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved unto eternal life" (paraphrase).
But this promise is only valid to those who believe (i.e. those appointed to eternal life through Christ).
And how do we know that we are among those that have been appointed to receive this inheritance?- By faith.
God has given us faith, as a gift, to assure us that His promises to us are "yes" and in Christ "amen".

This is not a deed that we could possibly have bought, we are bankrupt in this area, that's where depravity comes in. It is a deed that is given free of charge, no prerequisits. It is the pledge of God given as a gift of, and testimony to His grace and His glory.
Faith is a gift, it is of nothing within ourselves, but must be placed in us by the effectual work of the Holy Spirit through the Word of God.

Grace and peace.

Excellent Thank you

 

[arnold777]

Romans 6:2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
if eph2:1 means we have to be resurected to believe,does rom 6:2 means man can't sin unless he is resurected? Please explain
Also if our salvation was predestined does that mean we were saved before believing or regeneration?wouldn't that contardict salvatin by faith alone?
Sola fide if in the old testemant people had to offer a sacrafices for their sins how could you say salvation by faith alone in the old testemant? why can't we asume one have to have faith and offer the sacrafice for their salvation(work) to be saved in the old testemant?

 

[rnmomof7]

Romans 6:2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
if eph2:1 means we have to be resurected to believe,does rom 6:2 means man can't sin unless he is resurected? Please explain

Eph 2:1**
And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

This is one of the scriptures that teach regeneration comes before belief .

All men are born sinners as a result of the fall. Therefore we are slaves to our sin nature..we are spiritually dead to God.We do not understand the word or desire to give our lives to God.We like being Lord of our own lives

The word quickened means to have life. We needed to have life (be born again) so that we could see and desire God .

**
*
Eph 4:18**
Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

We are dead to sin in that it holds no pleasure for us after we are saved, We feel guilt and a desire to repent when we do.

It is no longer I that live , but Christ in me

Also if our salvation was predestined does that mean we were saved before believing or regeneration?

Were you a father before the birth of your child? God designed the method of salvation (Christ) and the means the preaching of the gospel (repent and believe in Christ). That is a universal truth of God .
No one is saved without that .

The elect will come and believe because the Father will give them spiritual life and draw them to Christ .

wouldn't that contardict salvatin by faith alone?

No , no one will believe unless it is give to him by the Father

Sola fide if in the old testemant people had to offer a sacrafices for their sins how could you say salvation by faith alone in the old testemant? why can't we asume one have to have faith and offer the sacrafice for their salvation(work) to be saved in the old testemant?

There are many old testament saints..the had faith in the promise. They looked forward to the cross and we look back .
Read Hebrews 11

 

[orthedoxy]

why can't we interpret the word dead in eph 2:1 the same way we interprit it in romans 6:2?

Were you a father before the birth of your child? God designed the method of salvation (Christ) and the means the preaching of the gospel (repent and believe in Christ). That is a universal truth of God .
No one is saved without that .

rnmomof7 if we were saved 2000 years ago did we believe in jesus 2000 years ago? if our salvation was predestined wouldn't that makes salvation before faith?

There are many old testament saints..the had faith in the promise. They looked forward to the cross and we look back .
Read Hebrews 11.

my question was were they saved by faith alone if they had to do work for salvation?

 

[Icystwolf]

ok heres my story,

Before I knew Calvinism existed which was this year, I lead my Christian life with ideas that came from the Bible.

All those ideas were proven in my head using a particular proof method of self assembly techique whereby picking up meanings and definitions as I progress through the Bible to prove that idea which would later become a statement.

That was 4yrs ago that continue even today.
Recently a friend of mine said that my ideas were Calvinistic however Calvinism became extinct about 200yrs ago. So I went on the web and researched it to find that there were still Calvinists today. And just a couple of nights ago, I was taking an indepth look at what Calvinists stand for, and it's true the TULIP is how I believe as a Christian.

I wasn't influenced by Calvinism in any other ways, nor had I know they existed, nor did I know anyone who was a Calvinist.

Also, another aspect that helped me move into those ideas of mine was my life. I've been with all sorts of bad people, involved with people who stole and took drugs...etc....I wasn't a social helper, rather a friend of theirs. Despite that and so many other things, I never followed in their ways, rather I'm still surprised today, I'm still a Christian. This was different however to other people in my sunday school. Out of the 12-16 in my year, 3 remain as Christians after leaving highschool. The rest were influenced by friends to do all sorts of dirty and sinful things....things that I was exposed but I was never bought out.

I was seeking an answer for this, because it had become a question mark on my head for over 3yrs now. The more I read and attract scriptural meanings to build a foundation for that incident, the more I realised that the Bible clearly suggests that it was not I that chose Jesus, rather it was he.

Jesus could have alternatively pulled the 9 Christians back to church, that way they could be like myself , in full worship and devotion to God and Jesus... but.......


I think I've been lost and wondering in the Calvinists camp for a while....

however I still feel uncomfortable calling myself a Calvinist, because it's all of a sudden....I even had my own name for calling myself...lol.....but it looks like John Calvin got there first!!!

But I'm sure I'm not the only one to have stumbled into the Calvinists camp.....

 

[rnmomof7]

why can't we interpret the word dead in eph 2:1 the same way we interprit it in romans 6:2?

You could if they were the same word. But the holy Spirit chose to use different words
In Eph
nekrovß
from an apparently primary nekus (a corpse)

Transliterated Word
TDNT Entry

Nekros
4:892,627

Phonetic Spelling
Parts of Speech

nek-ros'* *
Adjective



*Definition



properly
one that has breathed his last, lifeless
deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell
destitute of life, without life, inanimate


metaph.
spiritually dead
destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins
inactive as respects doing right


destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative

In Romans

Original Word
Word Origin

ajpoqnhv/skw
from (575) and (2348)

Transliterated Word
TDNT Entry

Apothnesko
3:7,312

Phonetic Spelling
Parts of Speech

ap-oth-nace'-ko* *
Verb



*Definition



to die
of the natural death of man
of the violent death of man or animals
to perish by means of something
of trees which dry up, of seeds which rot when planted
of eternal death, to be subject to eternal misery in hell

rnmomof7 if we were saved 2000 years ago did we believe in jesus 2000 years ago? if our salvation was predestined wouldn't that makes salvation before faith?

Predestination is an assurance that the elect will be saved ,

All the elect will be saved , there is no doubt in the mind of God because He has ordained it.

We are all born in need of a savior..All of us must come by faith . God ordained the method of salvation and the means .

my question was were they saved by faith alone if they had to do work for salvation?

What "work " did the do for their salvation?

Read Gen 15 and see that God performs both sides of the covenant.That is His promise.

 

[gort]

rnmomof7 quote:
We are dead to sin in that it holds no pleasure for us after we are saved, We feel guilt and a desire to repent when we do.

So very true......so very true.

We still have a sin nature, but are dead to the "practicing" of sin. We all still fall down, yet still have Jesus as our moderater with the Father.

Merry Christmas rnmomof7...God Bless you and yours.