Peeling the TULIP

[orthedoxy]

Merry Christmas everyone.

My point is eph 2:1 doesn’t prove one needs to regenerated before believing not unless one need to be regenerated to sin in rom 6:2. so what if it’s a different word is used they both mean the same thing dead.
John 1:12 still remains unanswered if God wills to save and give the spirit to those who receive him. Then becoming children of God (receiving the Holy Spirit) happens after we receive him and not before. God is the one that does the salvation he gives it we receive it he regenerates us.
john 1:13 doesn't disproove john 1:12

"What "work " did the do for their salvation?
Read Gen 15 and see that God performs both sides of the covenant.That is His promise."

Read james2:21 Abraham was justified by works.
Numbers 9:13 offering a sacrifice is not an option. Also there were many things Jews had to do from circumcision gen 17:14 to how the sacrifice was to be prepared to how they are to eat the sacrifice. So you can’t make it as if people in the Old Testament were justified by faith alone, it was faith plus work.
Do all Calvinists believe that their salvation is not predestined, only have assurance that the elect will be saved?

 

[sola fide]

Romans 6:2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
if eph2:1 means we have to be resurected to believe,does rom 6:2 means man can't sin unless he is resurected? Please explain
Also if our salvation was predestined does that mean we were saved before believing or regeneration?wouldn't that contardict salvatin by faith alone?
Sola fide if in the old testemant people had to offer a sacrafices for their sins how could you say salvation by faith alone in the old testemant? why can't we asume one have to have faith and offer the sacrafice for their salvation(work) to be saved in the old testemant?

First off, I think that this is using Rom. 6 severely out of context. What about the rest of the chapter?

Let's not just look at Rom. 6:2- how about Romans 6:11?
"So you must also consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus."

I don't know of any passages that say consider yourself dead in sin. They say that we were dead in sin. There's nothing to consider in this matter, this is a plain and visible fact, not a reckoning.

Plus, Rom. 6:14 basically sums up the definition of being dead to sin, that is, why we should consider ourselves dead to sin-

"For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under the law but under grace."

Considering ourselves dead to sin means coming to the realization that Christ has set us free from the penalty of the law. That we are able to serve righteousness because of Christ.
Being dead in sin means just what it says. That we are spiritually dead, unable to perform any righteous deeds. Even the deeds we perform that appear outwardly righteous are truly unrighteous because they flow out of a dead and evil heart.

Grace and peace.

 

[sola fide]

Merry Christmas everyone.

My point is eph 2:1 doesn’t prove one needs to regenerated before believing not unless one need to be regenerated to sin in rom 6:2. so what if it’s a different word is used they both mean the same thing dead.
John 1:12 still remains unanswered if God wills to save and give the spirit to those who receive him. Then becoming children of God (receiving the Holy Spirit) happens after we receive him and not before. God is the one that does the salvation he gives it we receive it he regenerates us.
john 1:13 doesn't disproove john 1:12

"What "work " did the do for their salvation?
Read Gen 15 and see that God performs both sides of the covenant.That is His promise."

Read james2:21 Abraham was justified by works.
Numbers 9:13 offering a sacrifice is not an option. Also there were many things Jews had to do from circumcision gen 17:14 to how the sacrifice was to be prepared to how they are to eat the sacrifice. So you can’t make it as if people in the Old Testament were justified by faith alone, it was faith plus work.
Do all Calvinists believe that their salvation is not predestined, only have assurance that the elect will be saved?

James 2:21- "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?"

That must mean that he was saved by works right? Wrong

James 2:22- "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works."

Ephesians. 2:10- "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."


Gen. 17:14- "Any uncircumcised male who is not circumsised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

Deuteronomy 30:6- "And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live."

God has always had to enable His people to serve Him. It is not something they are inherantly able to do. We see the new birth in the N.T., we see heart circumcision in the O.T., but both are one in the same.
All of the sacrifices of the law, plus circumcision, were types and signs, they did not save anyone, they simply pointed forward to the Messiah, the One who truly has the power to save.
Works do not save, they serve as "authenticators". Our faith would not be visible if it were not for our works.
I posted earlier that faith was the "title deed" given as the gift of God to prove that the inheritance belongs to us.
In this case you might say that works are the ink on that deed. Ink that God himself has used to write with (see Eph. 2:10). They are there to make it clear that we have a true faith. But they do not save by any means, nor have they ever at any point in history.

Heb. 7:11- "Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood...what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek...?"

Heb. 10:4- "For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins."

Anyway, this post really isn't sufficient to answer all of the questions that pertain to the question of salvation by faith alone in the O.T.
But I leave you with this-

Heb. 4:2- "For good news [that is gospel] came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened.

The point of that passage is this- The reason that Moses, Abraham, etc. received the rest that is in God is because they believed in the future Messiah by faith. They heard the gospel and they believed it.
But they believed for the same reason that we do, God changed [i.e. circumcised] their hearts.

The gospel was very real in the O.T. It's practically dripping out of every book. You think Abraham didn't know the gospel. He might not have seen every ounce of it- but he knew.

He saw a visible demonstration of calvary at moriah when he saw his "only" son walk up that hill with the wood for the burnt offering upon him.
John 8:56- "Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."

Abraham saw Christ in the types and shadows, and he rested upon Him by faith, knowing that- the LORD will provide a redeemer-
Gen. 22:14- "So Abraham called the name of that place, "The LORD will provide", as it is said to this day, "On the mount of the LORD it shall be provided".

Gen. 22:8- Abraham said, "God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering my son."

Grace and peace.

 

[orthedoxy]

First off, I think that this is using Rom. 6 severely out of context. What about the rest of the chapter?

That’s how I feel about eph 2:1 you are trying to say something that is not there.
Dead in these places means separated otherwise it doesn’t make sense.
So don’t try to make it saying you need to be regenerated first. We already saw john 1:12 receiving him comes first.

James 2:21- "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?"

That must mean that he was saved by works right? Wrong

James 2:22- "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works."

this proves my point if faith without work is not complete can faith without work save?? He is saying faith alone is not complete.
James 2:20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless
why would faith alone be useless if it saves?

Ephesians. 2:10- "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

notice the word should. It doesn’t say here we don’t have a choice but to walk in them but we can resist the work.

Gen. 17:14- "Any uncircumcised male who is not circumsised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

You are not answering my questions, my question is did they have to be circumcised? Or was it as long as they had faith it was enough.
is it possable that one could have faith but not be circumsised? the answer would have to be yes.The next question is is that person saved? the answer is no since he is cut off.

Deuteronomy 30:6- "And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live."

if these people were regenerated why did they die in the dessert? Read 1cor 10: 1-11. he give the grace but you have to cooperate with God. Look their responsibility is :”so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live."
Deut 30:6 says the circumcision is not only physical but also spiritual. Just like baptism

God has always had to enable His people to serve Him. It is not something they are inherantly able to do. We see the new birth in the N.T., we see heart circumcision in the O.T., but both are one in the same.

In the O.T it’s happening at circumcision in the N.T it’s happening in baptism rom 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

All of the sacrifices of the law, plus circumcision, were types and signs, they did not save anyone, they simply pointed forward to the Messiah, the One who truly has the power to save.
Works do not save, they serve as "authenticators". Our faith would not be visible if it were not for our works.

If God says if you are not circumcised you are cut off is not the same thing as saying it’s a sign to show you are saved.

Iposted earlier that faith was the "title deed" given as the gift of God to prove that the inheritance belongs to us.
In this case you might say that works are the ink on that deed. Ink that God himself has used to write with (see Eph. 2:10). They are there to make it clear that we have a true faith. But they do not save by any means, nor have they ever at any point in history.

If the people didn’t offer the lamb in the old testament and put the lambs blood on the door posts they would’ve died whether they had faith or not. It was not evadince that they are saved but the action that was done in faith saved them.
My question is can they have faith but not post the blood on the door posts the answer should be yes. Does their faith alone saves them the answer is no.

Heb. 7:11- "Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood...what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek...?"

Heb. 10:4- "For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins."

In the N.T this is a true statement
In the O.T Leviticus 16:16
He shall make atonement for the holy place, because of the impurities of the sons of Israel and because of their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and thus he shall do for the tent of meeting which abides with them in the midst of their impurities
Heb 9:22. And according to the Law, one may (1) almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and (2) without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Anyway, this post really isn't sufficient to answer all of the questions that pertain to the question of salvation by faith alone in the O.T.
But I leave you with this-

Heb. 4:2- "For good news [that is gospel] came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened.

The point of that passage is this- The reason that Moses, Abraham, etc. received the rest that is in God is because they believed in the future Messiah by faith. They heard the gospel and they believed it.
But they believed for the same reason that we do, God changed [i.e. circumcised] their hearts.

The gospel was very real in the O.T. It's practically dripping out of every book. You think Abraham didn't know the gospel. He might not have seen every ounce of it- but he knew.

He saw a visible demonstration of calvary at moriah when he saw his "only" son walk up that hill with the wood for the burnt offering upon him.
John 8:56- "Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."

Abraham saw Christ in the types and shadows, and he rested upon Him by faith, knowing that- the LORD will provide a redeemer-
Gen. 22:14- "So Abraham called the name of that place, "The LORD will provide", as it is said to this day, "On the mount of the LORD it shall be provided".

Gen. 22:8- Abraham said, "God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering my son."

Genesis 22:13 Then Abraham raised his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him a ram caught in the thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram and offered him up for a burnt offering in the place of his son.
It was Abraham that offered the sacrifice. God provided Abraham offered the sacrifice. Same thing as john 1:12

 

[sola fide]

Genesis 22:13 Then Abraham raised his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him a ram caught in the thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram and offered him up for a burnt offering in the place of his son.
It was Abraham that offered the sacrifice. God provided Abraham offered the sacrifice. Same thing as john 1:12[/QUOTE]
I fail to see how that is in any way the outline of John 1:12 and 13

That's some major isogesis.

John 1:13 clarifies v. 12, and you know this.

Let's apply some simple logic to the passage.

John 1:12 and 13-
"But to all who did receive Him, who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

Alright,
1. Those who received Christ, believed in His name became the children of God.
2. These people were not born of-
a. blood
b. the will of the flesh
c. the will of man
3. They were born of God.

Doesn't look that hard to understand to me. Those born again are not born of the will of man.
Romans 9:16- "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."

John 6:44- "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him."

"draws"- gk. helkuo- definition- 1. to draw 2. to drag off 3. to compel by force.

Check out Strongs concordance some time about this word. You might be suprised how many times this word "helkuo" is translated "drag".

The word picture of that verse is that we are running for hell and God snatches us up so that we will not perish. We play no part in our being dragged from the mouth of the pit. We merely respond in thankfulness when we realize what has happened.

Besides, here's another piece of logic for you.
1. Christ said, "the flesh profits nothing".
2. All non-believers are "in the flesh" at all times by biblical definition. i.e. they are not indwelt by the Spirit.
3. Eternal life is something.

Conclusion-
For a non-believer to will eternal life through Christ makes Christ's statement (1) false. Because that would necessarily mean that a person, in their flesh, laid hold of eternal life, therefore the flesh profited much.

This post is a bit of a hodge podge. I feel that it's a bit disorganized. Pick one specific text to deal with and I will address it tomorrow. We need to stick to exposition here rather than random verse dropping. The former tends to throw context out the door.

Grace and peace.

 

[NotTroy]

Sorry, but I am going to derail you guys a bit.

You all seem to read a lot of theological stuff. Im not a new Christian but I am pretty new to the whole theology thing. Could you recommend some good authors to me? I have seen a few examples already. I saw a complete set of the sermons of Martin Luther on sale at christianbooks.com for something like forty dollars and I was thinking of ordering it. The only real theology stuff I have read so far is C.S. Lewis who I love, do you think Martin Luther's sermons would be a good place for me to start, or should I go with someone else's works first?

 

[sola fide]

I have that set of Martin Luther sermons. Luther was a great theologian. I don't know if I'd recommend it to someone just getting started in theology, just for the sheer fact that it's somewhat hard to read.

My highest recommendations to you are-
1. Robert L. Reymond - A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith.
2. James Montgomery Boice- Foundations of the Christian Faith

Those 2 are contemporary and easy to read, I love both of them.

If you'd rather read the older volumes, I'd recommend-
1. John Calvin- Institutes
2. Charles Hodge- Systematic Theology
3. B.B. Warfield- Biblical Doctrines.

But for me, I'm begging you, please pick up Reymond or Boice. They have helped me so much.

For more great authors check out www.monergism.com
This site doesn't sell books, but it has wonderful articles on about any subject of the faith you could think of.

Grace and peace.

 

[orthedoxy]

Genesis 22:13 Then Abraham raised his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him a ram caught in the thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram and offered him up for a burnt offering in the place of his son.
It was Abraham that offered the sacrifice. God provided Abraham offered the sacrifice. Same thing as john 1:12. fail to see how that is in any way the outline of John 1:12 and 13.

Abraham received the sacrifice that God provided and sacrificed it.
John 1:12 God provides the sacrifice (Jesus) we receive it he saves us.

That's some major isogesis
John 1:13 clarifies v. 12, and you know this.

Let's apply some simple logic to the passage.

John 1:12 and 13-
"But to all who did receive Him, who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

Alright,
1. Those who received Christ, believed in His name became the children of God.
2. These people were not born of-
a. blood
b. the will of the flesh
c. the will of man
3. They were born of God.

Doesn't look that hard to understand to me. Those born again are not born of the will of man.
Romans 9:16- "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.".

I’m going to repeat myself I’m not saying man is born of human will but born of Gods will but as we see in vs12 Gods regenerate those who come to him. It doesn’t say those who are children of God received him.

John 6:44- "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him."

"draws"- gk. helkuo- definition- 1. to draw 2. to drag off 3. to compel by force.

Check out Strongs concordance some time about this word. You might be suprised how many times this word "helkuo" is translated "drag".

The word picture of that verse is that we are running for hell and God snatches us up so that we will not perish. We play no part in our being dragged from the mouth of the pit. We merely respond in thankfulness when we realize what has happened.

Here is the true colors of calvinism God drags you into the kingdom. That must be some love. What if I were to drag my wife to marry me is there anything wrong with that?
There is a problem with your theology. If God loves only some is he loving at all? If Hitler loved his kids is he a loving person?
The same word draw is mentioned in one other place
John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." If he draws all men or all nations why aren’t all men or all nations Christians?

Besides, here's another piece of logic for you.
1. Christ said, "the flesh profits nothing".
2. All non-believers are "in the flesh" at all times by biblical definition. i.e. they are not indwelt by the Spirit.
3. Eternal life is something.

Conclusion-
For a non-believer to will eternal life through Christ makes Christ's statement (1) false. Because that would necessarily mean that a person, in their flesh, laid hold of eternal life, therefore the flesh profited much.

No one is saying you come on your own he gives grace but you need to respond
Here is a verse act 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."
40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

Notice he says repent and be baptised and after(not before)that you will receive regeneration.
Also he says save yourself why would peter tell them save yourself if he knows they can’t come? Then many of them saved themselves.

This post is a bit of a hodge podge I feel that it's a bit disorganized. Pick one specific text to deal with and I will address it tomorrow. We need to stick to exposition here rather than random verse dropping. The former tends to throw context out the door..

Deal with one verse at a time. Finish answering john 1:12.
You give me only one verse that proofs your point.

 

[sola fide]

I am not questioning human responisiblity in salvation. We absolutely have the responsibility to repent and believe. The question is, does regeneration have to come before belief and true repentance? And the answer to that question is yes.
John 1:12-13 tells us that.
Those who receive Christ are not born of the will of man. Rather they are born of God.
John 3:16 clarifies that. A person cannot see the kingdom of God unless they are first born again.
What did John the baptist preach? What did Christ preach?
They preached, "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand!"
After hearing that statement, what would cause a person to repent? Maybe the fact that they see the kingdom of God. They saw the kingdom in Christ's miracles, in Christ's preaching, they saw the kingdom and believed He was who He said He was.
But John 3 tells us that a person must be born again before they can see the kingdom.


In a works based salvation God does not ensure the salvation of anyone. In fact He leaves it up to us to do the work. Work that we cannot do, because we are all born into a sinful nature. A nature that is carnal and fleshly.

Romans 8:7- "For the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it does not submit to God's law, nor can it."

8:8- "You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ dows not belong to Him."

Here's my question. Can someone that does not have the Spirit of God dwelling in him do anything good? Can he be pleasing to God?

If the answer is no, then that obviously includes repentence unto life, which is necessary for salvation.

2 Timothy 2:24-25- "And the LORd's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth."


My question is simple, and I ask it again.
Can a carnal minded person, lacking the indwelling of the Holy Spirit do anything that is pleasing to God?

 

[orthedoxy]

I am not questioning human responisiblity in salvation. We absolutely have the responsibility to repent and believe. The question is, does regeneration have to come before belief and true repentance? And the answer to that question is yes.
John 1:12-13 tells us that.
Those who receive Christ are not born of the will of man. Rather they are born of God.

I agree that we are Born of the will of God but God regenerate those who recieve him first according to john1:12 wouldn't you agree that this is what the verse is saying?i've been asking this question three times and still i have no answer. don't answer with a different verse answer from john 1:12.
i'm going to respond to the verses you quoted but keep it short next time. i just want the answer to my question isn't john 1:12 saying recieving happens before regeneration?

John 3:16 clarifies that. A person cannot see the kingdom of God unless they are first born again.
What did John the baptist preach? What did Christ preach?
They preached, "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand!"
After hearing that statement, what would cause a person to repent? Maybe the fact that they see the kingdom of God. They saw the kingdom in Christ's miracles, in Christ's preaching, they saw the kingdom and believed He was who He said He was.
But John 3 tells us that a person must be born again before they can see the kingdom.

I take it you mean john 3:3 and not 3:16.
You can’ t see because you haven’t entered the kingdom look at verse 5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. So to enter (saved) you have to be regenerated.
John the baptized says the kingdom is near read matt 3:2,matt 4:17 that’s what he meant. So you can’t build your theology on something that is not there. The people didn’t even receive the Holy Spirit until Pentecost.

In a works based salvation God does not ensure the salvation of anyone. In fact He leaves it up to us to do the work. Work that we cannot do, because we are all born into a sinful nature. A nature that is carnal and fleshly.

Romans 8:7- "For the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it does not submit to God's law, nor can it."

8:8- "You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ dows not belong to Him."

Here's my question. Can someone that does not have the Spirit of God dwelling in him do anything good? Can he be pleasing to God?

If the answer is no, then that obviously includes repentence unto life, which is necessary for salvation.

2 Timothy 2:24-25- "And the LORd's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth."


My question is simple, and I ask it again.
Can a carnal minded person, lacking the indwelling of the Holy Spirit do anything that is pleasing to God?

the carnal person could respond to Gods grace john 1:12 act 2:38-41, or resist his grace act 7:51 or matt 23:37.
I don’t believe in work based salvation, I believe it’s by Gods grace we are saved. We can’t come on our own unless he draws us. He initiates salvation we respond he saves(regenerates).
When a person gives a gift the giver gets the credit for the gift and not the receiver.therefore salvation is his doing and not ours.
I agree with Rom 8:7-8 we can’t submit to Gods laws but we can respond to Gods calling. Or otherwise why would he tell people everywhere to repent act 17:30?
2tim 2:24-25 God may grant them repentance if they ask for forgiveness that is the only thing that it could mean read it in context it’s pretty clear.

If i didn't answer your question tell me why.
I want you to answer only one question it's in bold letters.

 

[sola fide]

I'll keep this short and simple. This will be my last post on this subject.
John 1:12 does not say what you are trying to make it say. I say that because of the simple fact that John 1:12 and 13 are one sentence. You can't take John 1:12 then leave John 1:13 out.

Those who receive Christ only do so because they have first been born of God.
That's the thrust of John 1:12 and 13. This is meant to be an introduction to what would happen in John 3.

Second, since I have to answer my own question.
No, it is not possible for a carnal minded person to do anything that is pleasing to God. Therefore a person in the flesh, that has not been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, cannot offer up repentance unto life. It is not in his nature to do so.

Grace and peace.

 

[Dr Dex]

Therefore a person in the flesh, that has not been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, cannot offer up repentance unto life. It is not in his nature to do so.

Indeed. This person would never, ever want to do so, because his heart (and all his wants and desires) are committed to a life of idolatry and sin.

 

[orthedoxy]

I'll keep this short and simple. This will be my last post on this subject.
John 1:12 does not say what you are trying to make it say. I say that because of the simple fact that John 1:12 and 13 are one sentence. You can't take John 1:12 then leave John 1:13 out.

Those who receive Christ only do so because they have first been born of God.
That's the thrust of John 1:12 and 13. This is meant to be an introduction to what would happen in John 3..

I take that as a no answer since i already told you according tp vs12and vs13 God makes those who recieve him his children.

Second, since I have to answer my own question.
No, it is not possible for a carnal minded person to do anything that is pleasing to God. Therefore a person in the flesh, that has not been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, cannot offer up repentance unto life. It is not in his nature to do so.

Grace and peace.

I already answered the question with verses that carnal people can recieve Gods grace or reject it.

 

[NotTroy]

Thanks for the suggestions.

Just to clarify, reading older works doesn't bother me at all. I'm an avid reader and though I find older works to be boring in a lot of cases, the reason is not the grammar or vocabulary, its usually the plot or the structure of the plot that turns me off. This problem would of course not apply in the case of a non fiction book like theology.

I'll check out those authors you mentioned. Like I said, what got me interested in the whole theology thing was reading C.S. Lewis who I think is considered pretty contemporary by Christianity standards, hehe.

What do you think of Dietrich Bonhoeffer? I have recently encountered some different articles and tv shows about his life and some excerpts from his works, and he seems like he would not only be a great theologian but also a great example of how a Christian should live life.

 

[rnmomof7]

So very true......so very true.

We still have a sin nature, but are dead to the "practicing" of sin. We all still fall down, yet still have Jesus as our moderater with the Father.

Merry Christmas rnmomof7...God Bless you and yours.

A very belated Christmas to you too..We have had family in from out of town..so I am finally getting some computer time

May you have a blessed New year

 

[rnmomof7]

Merry Christmas everyone.

My point is eph 2:1 doesn’t prove one needs to regenerated before believing not unless one need to be regenerated to sin in rom 6:2. so what if it’s a different word is used they both mean the same thing dead.

God chose to have the NT written in Greek because it is a precise language.

If it was the Holy Spirits intention to have them mean the same thing, He would have used the same word.

John 1:12 still remains unanswered if God wills to save and give the spirit to those who receive him. Then becoming children of God (receiving the Holy Spirit) happens after we receive him and not before. God is the one that does the salvation he gives it we receive it he regenerates us.
john 1:13 doesn't disproove john 1:12

Read the passage again


*
*
Jhn 1:12**
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

**
*
Jhn 1:13**
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

What do you think this means ?

A blind man can not choose to see.Lazarus**could not choose to come out of the grave. Paul says clearly that we were DEAD in trespasses and sin..DEAD not sleeping , or lost..DEAD.

A dead man can not "receive anything "

How would you know enough to receive him? Why would you desire to?

I wrote:

"What "work " did the do for their salvation?
Read Gen 15 and see that God performs both sides of the covenant.That is His promise."
You answered:

Read james2:21 Abraham was justified by works.

He was justified before man .

Paul asks this question

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.

James addresses how we show our justification before men not God.

As Jesus said

Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Our works ( and those of Abraham ) Are ordained of God for His glory , not our salvation.

How do you deal with Gen 15? You did not address that .

Numbers 9:13 offering a sacrifice is not an option. Also there were many things Jews had to do from circumcision gen 17:14 to how the sacrifice was to be prepared to how they are to eat the sacrifice. So you can’t make it as if people in the Old Testament were justified by faith alone, it was faith plus work.

Do you understand that they had to have faith that the sacrifice ( a typology of Christ and the cross) would be honored by God?
Is Hebrews 11 a lie?

Do all Calvinists believe that their salvation is not predestined, only have assurance that the elect will be saved?

The founding faith Fathers of the Reformation and reform believers today believe God has ordained the elect before the foundation of the earth .

That does not mean that the elect are born saved. It means that they will be drawn by the Father to the cross to be saved.

The means of Salvation for men is repent and believe .That is Gods plan of redemption for the elect.It is offered to all men to come by faith..but man will never choose to come without the Father giving them New Life.

Unless a man be born again he can not see the kingdom of God

 

[orthedoxy]

God chose to have the NT written in Greek because it is a precise language.

If it was the Holy Spirits intention to have them mean the same thing, He would have used the same word.

The same word in rom6:2 is used in rom 5:8 also in rom 5:7 it means dead.
Also you could read the prodigal son story did the son ever physically die or was he just separated from the father?

Read the passage again


*
*
Jhn 1:12**
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

**
*
Jhn 1:13**
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

What do you think this means ?

I'll answer one more time we whom receive him are regenerated by God. We are not being born of our choice but considering our choice God regenerates us.
the question still remains did regeneration come before receiving in this verse?

A blind man can not choose to see.Lazarus**could not choose to come out of the grave. Paul says clearly that we were DEAD in trespasses and sin..DEAD not sleeping , or lost..DEAD.

A dead man can not "receive anything "

How would you know enough to receive him? Why would you desire to?

then if this is what dead means in eph 2 then you have to explain rom 6:2 "we died to sin"

He was justified before man .

Paul asks this question

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.

James addresses how we show our justification before men not God.

As Jesus said

Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Our works ( and those of Abraham ) Are ordained of God for His glory , not our salvation.

How do you deal with Gen 15? You did not address that .

Are you telling me james is saying we need to be justified before men like the Pharisees did?
read matt 6:1"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
Abraham was before the Moses and the law so he was justified before the law .Paul is making the point to the Jews that were trying to obey Moses law the sacrifice and so on for salvation.
in james 2 if it was saying Abraham was justified before man then why wasn't there anyone present with him during the offering?
Was his faith complete before man or God? james 2:22
I think if you live your life trying to be justified before men you are in big trouble.

Do you understand that they had to have faith that the sacrifice ( a typology of Christ and the cross) would be honored by God?
Is Hebrews 11 a lie?

The founding faith Fathers of the Reformation and reform believers today believe God has ordained the elect before the foundation of the earth .

That does not mean that the elect are born saved. It means that they will be drawn by the Father to the cross to be saved.

The means of Salvation for men is repent and believe .That is Gods plan of redemption for the elect.It is offered to all men to come by faith..but man will never choose to come without the Father giving them New Life.

Unless a man be born again he can not see the kingdom of God

Heb 11 is saying by faith which no problem I don't believe it's by works.
but do you think they were justified by faith alone or faith plus their work(sacrifice and so on)?

by the way thanks for clarifying about. Salvation came after believing was asking because I wasn't sure what Calvinist believed.

Next time keep it short

 

[rnmomof7]

The same word in rom6:2 is used in rom 5:8 also in rom 5:7 it means dead.
Also you could read the prodigal son story did the son ever physically die or was he just separated from the father?

You make the reform point. The elect are always the sons of God . We are born spiritually dead to God because of the fall. The son was living a sinful life..wasting the resources of the Father (men use the general grace of God to their own end , without thought of the end result),just as he WILLS but the elect will be drawn back by the Father.The son repents and makes his Father Lord.

The point being the son was always his son ..even when he was away and living as an unregenerate man .

The word dead in this parable is nekrovß exactly the same as in Eph
Spiritually dead.

Please read the entire chapter, It is called the lost Chapter..Jesus shows us how precious Gods children are to him from different perspectives

The lost sheep were the property of the Shepherd . they were not strays that looked for a Shepherd.
The coin belonged to the woman that searched, before it was lost
In both cases the owner was looking for what already belonged to him.

I'll answer one more time we whom receive him are regenerated by God. We are not being born of our choice but considering our choice God regenerates us.
the question still remains did regeneration come before receiving in this verse?

You beg the question..once again I ask you what the following verse means.You read half a thought and want to construct a doctrine on it
Jhn 1:12**
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Do you know how to diagram a sentence? The phrase "to those that believe in His name" is modified by the words that follow..
Who are those that believe? Those that were born NOT OF BLOOD, NOR THE WILL OF THE FLESH NOR THE WILL OF MAN ..BUT OF GOD

then if this is what dead means in eph 2 then you have to explain rom 6:2 "we died to sin"

I did explain it to you and you choose to ignore the fact that there are a half dozen words for dead in the greek..each for a specific meaning..much as there is for love. That is the reason the NT is written in Greek..so the language is clear. Now you can ignore it if you like..but then you limit your understanding of the scripture as written

You could if they were the same word. But the holy Spirit chose to use different words
In Eph
nekrovß
from an apparently primary nekus (a corpse)

Transliterated Word
TDNT Entry

Nekros
4:892,627

Phonetic Spelling
Parts of Speech

nek-ros'* *
Adjective



*Definition



properly
one that has breathed his last, lifeless
deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell
destitute of life, without life, inanimate


metaph.
spiritually dead
destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins
inactive as respects doing right


destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative

In Romans

Original Word
Word Origin

ajpoqnhv/skw
from (575) and (2348)

Transliterated Word
TDNT Entry

Apothnesko
3:7,312

Phonetic Spelling
Parts of Speech

ap-oth-nace'-ko* *
Verb



*Definition



to die
of the natural death of man
of the violent death of man or animals
to perish by means of something
of trees which dry up, of seeds which rot when planted
of eternal death, to be subject to eternal misery in hell

Are you telling me james is saying we need to be justified before men like the Pharisees did?

The Pharisees were legalists that believed men are saved by their obedience to the law and their works.

They wanted to look holy because they wanted to have the respect of men.


That is not why a believer wants to show his justification before men..His work is work that is foreordained by God that he should do it..not for his glory but so God is glorified for HIS work in you.

Eph 2:10**
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Tts 2:7**
In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine [shewing] uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

What do you think Jesus meant when he told us to so let our light shine before men ?

Mat 5:14**
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

**
*
Mat 5:15**
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

**
*
Mat 5:16**
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Jhn 15:8**
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

read matt 6:1"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

The purpose of your heart is what He is reading. IF the purpose of your work is to glorify yourself (as the Pharisees) there is NO reward

Abraham was before the Moses and the law so he was justified before the law .

Does God lie?

Gen 15:5**
And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

**
*
Gen 15:6**
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Paul is making the point to the Jews that were trying to obey Moses law the sacrifice and so on for salvation.

*
Rom 4:1**
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

**
*
Rom 4:2**
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.

**
*
Rom 4:3**
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

*
Rom 4:4**
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

**
*
Rom 4:5**
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Rom 4:6**
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

If there is no fruit on the tree the tree is dead. faith without works (fruit) is dead. The tree does not get its life from the fruit..the fruit gets is life from the tree..1st faith , then works

The willingness of Abraham to sacrifice his son PROVED that faith was already present. That "work" was a result of Abraham's righteousness by faith. He trusted God to fulfill His promise FAITH

in james 2 if it was saying Abraham was justified before man then why wasn't there anyone present with him during the offering?

You know about it don't you? It was a sign for all generations of what justification by faith looks like.

It is not a sinners prayer and a return to you life just as before.
Justification produces a change..a change that is worked by faith.

Jesus becomes Lord..It is he that works through you.
If jesus is not the Lord of your fruit he is not Lord at all

Was his faith complete before man or God? james 2:22
I think if you live your life trying to be justified before men you are in big trouble.

I think if there is no fruit on your tree that gives testimony to the work of God in your life there is very big trouble.

Heb 11 is saying by faith which no problem I don't believe it's by works.
but do you think they were justified by faith alone or faith plus their work(sacrifice and so on)?

Faith alone..with works flowing from that work of God

Solus Christus, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Sola Deo Gloria

by the way thanks for clarifying about. Salvation came after believing was asking because I wasn't sure what Calvinist believed.

Next time keep it short

Sorry about the length..but I am a sola scriptura believer so the scripture is the source of doctrine

Hope you had a blessed Christmas

 

[orthedoxy]

You make the reform point. The elect are always the sons of God . We are born spiritually dead to God because of the fall. The son was living a sinful life..wasting the resources of the Father (men use the general grace of God to their own end , without thought of the end result),just as he WILLS but the elect will be drawn back by the Father.The son repents and makes his Father Lord.

The point being the son was always his son ..even when he was away and living as an unregenerate man .

The word dead in this parable is nekrovß exactly the same as in Eph
Spiritually dead.

Please read the entire chapter, It is called the lost Chapter..Jesus shows us how precious Gods children are to him from different perspectives

The lost sheep were the property of the Shepherd . they were not strays that looked for a Shepherd.
The coin belonged to the woman that searched, before it was lost
In both cases the owner was looking for what already belonged to him.

Luke 15:24For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.
Notice he Notice the son was alive again meaning he was alive at one point
was inactive as respects doing right. Yet in verse 17 "When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you.
When he came to his senses he changed on his own. Therefore dead doesn’t have to mean dead and need to be regenerated but could mean not active in doing right and you need to turn around
Notice in John 5:40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
Not you can’t you refuse. We can come to Jesus therefore we are not totally unable.


He came back on his own. He repented on his own the father didn’t go after him and drag him back.
In the lost coin luke 15:9And when she finds it, she calls her friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost coin.' 10In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."
The finding represents one who repents. It’s not saying ones that are dragged back or brought back irresistibly.
Same thing with the lost sheep luke 15 6and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.' 7I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent

You beg the question..once again I ask you what the following verse means.You read half a thought and want to construct a doctrine on it
Jhn 1:12**
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Do you know how to diagram a sentence? The phrase "to those that believe in His name" is modified by the words that follow..
Who are those that believe? Those that were born NOT OF BLOOD, NOR THE WILL OF THE FLESH NOR THE WILL OF MAN ..BUT OF GOD

You missed one line that you didn’t explain what does the first part mean? But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God.
What do you do with act 2:38-41 38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."
40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
This sounds repentance is happening before recieving the holy spirit.

I did explain it to you and you choose to ignore the fact that there are a half dozen words for dead in the greek..each for a specific meaning..much as there is for love. That is the reason the NT is written in Greek..so the language is clear. Now you can ignore it if you like..but then you limit your understanding of the scripture as written

Maybe you didn’t read rom 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
The word that is used in rom 6:2 is the same word as the word in rom 5:8.
How is it when referring to Christ death is not the same thing as when the other word refers to Lazurus Death?
Can you sin even though you are dead to sin?

The Pharisees were legalists that believed men are saved by their obedience to the law and their works.

They wanted to look holy because they wanted to have the respect of men.


That is not why a believer wants to show his justification before men..His work is work that is foreordained by God that he should do it..not for his glory but so God is glorified for HIS work in you.

Eph 2:10**
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Tts 2:7**
In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine [shewing] uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

What do you think Jesus meant when he told us to so let our light shine before men ?

Mat 5:14**
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

**
*
Mat 5:15**
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

**
*
Mat 5:16**
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Jhn 15:8**
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

How much money have you given to the poor why don’t you tell us so we can justify you? how silly does that sound?

james2:14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
Let’s see if this is saying to do it before men even though I feel pretty silly refuting such thing.
Matt 6: 1"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Jesus says do such act before God and not men.
Matt 26:31-41 31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.
If you compare with James 2:14 you see Jesus is the one that is going to justify and there is no such thing as being justified by men

The reason that he was angry with the Pharisees was not because they were doing good works but for being hypocrites and show offs and they try to appear good before people and not before God.

The purpose of your heart is what He is reading. IF the purpose of your work is to glorify yourself (as the Pharisees) there is NO reward





Does God lie?

Gen 15:5**
And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

**
*
Gen 15:6**
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.


*
Rom 4:1**
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

**
*
Rom 4:2**
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.

**
*
Rom 4:3**
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

*
Rom 4:4**
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

**
*
Rom 4:5**
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Rom 4:6**
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

If there is no fruit on the tree the tree is dead. faith without works (fruit) is dead. The tree does not get its life from the fruit..the fruit gets is life from the tree..1st faith , then works

The willingness of Abraham to sacrifice his son PROVED that faith was already present. That "work" was a result of Abraham's righteousness by faith. He trusted God to fulfill His promise FAITH



You know about it don't you? It was a sign for all generations of what justification by faith looks like.

It is not a sinners prayer and a return to you life just as before.
Justification produces a change..a change that is worked by faith.

Jesus becomes Lord..It is he that works through you.
If jesus is not the Lord of your fruit he is not Lord at all

I think if there is no fruit on your tree that gives testimony to the work of God in your life there is very big trouble.

Faith alone..with works flowing from that work of God

Solus Christus, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Sola Deo Gloria



Sorry about the length..but I am a sola scriptura believer so the scripture is the source of doctrine

Hope you had a blessed Christmas

Abraham was saved from gen 12 and not gen5 read heb 11:8 or read gen 12 to 15 you see he had to do a lot of things before he was saved.
I wish I could get you to understand Abraham was there before the work of the law, before Moses. You have to ask your self what is the work that was required at the time of Abraham? There were no commandments there wasn’t even circumcision.
The point is Paul is saying to the people that were still obeying the old testament laws for salvation that they can’t save you without faith in jesus.
Look in rom 2: 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[1] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

John 5:29and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

Matt 25:31-46"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

There are way too many verses but I hope these are enough for today’s bible study.
By the way my Christmas is not till Jan 6 but merry Christmas to you.

 

[rnmomof7]

Luke 15:24For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.
Notice he Notice the son was alive again meaning he was alive at one point
was inactive as respects doing right. Yet in verse 17 "When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you.
When he came to his senses he changed on his own. Therefore dead doesn’t have to mean dead and need to be regenerated but could mean not active in doing right and you need to turn around
Notice in John 5:40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
Not you can’t you refuse. We can come to Jesus therefore we are not totally unable.

What makes you believe that an unregenerate man can come to Christ without the grace of the Father???

All the unregenerate men refuse to come to Christ . That is a mark of the unregenerate.

He came back on his own. He repented on his own the father didn’t go after him and drag him back.

He did not come to the Father to become His son..He was always His son.

What makes you think that the grace favor of the father did not draw him??

In the lost coin luke 15:9And when she finds it, she calls her friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost coin.' 10In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."
The finding represents one who repents. It’s not saying ones that are dragged back or brought back irresistibly.

Who did the coin belong to? It was always her coin. That is the point. The scripture does not say she went on a treasure hunt to find what belonged to another..

Same thing with the lost sheep luke 15 6and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have foundmy lost sheep.' 7I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent

Who did the sheep belong to before they were lost?
Jesus went to find sheep that already belonged to Him.He did not go to find sheep that were not already His.

the actor in both of these parables is the owner not the lost object or sheep.

The sheep did not come looking for Him .

You missed one line that you didn’t explain what does the first part mean? But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God.

The scripture tells you who receives Him ..I posted that scripture to clarify WHO will receive Him..

Jhn 1:12**
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man,[/u] but of God. [/u]
Those that receive him were born of the father ..not thier own will nor the will of the flesh


Jhn 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

You can not receive something that is not given to you

What do you do with act 2:38-41 38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."

Who will call??
Is the man calling God or is God calling the man?

Repentance is a gift of God..not the will of men ..God gave those that came repentance .

Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life

40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation."
41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
This sounds repentance is happening before recieving the Holy spirit.

Does it? The question is always who will come..not that some will come by the work of God

Maybe you didn’t read rom 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Before repentance???

The word that is used in rom 6:2 is the same word as the word in rom 5:8.
How is it when referring to Christ death is not the same thing as when the other word refers to Lazurus Death?

Christ died and was raised from the tomb..I would expect the same word.
Rom 5:8**
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
We share in that death and rose with Him

Rom 6:2**
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

That seems appropriate reading the following verses.

Rom 6:2**
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

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Rom 6:3**
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

From Spurgeon
The basis of this confession lies in the union of every believer with Christ Jesus. We are dead with him, because we are one with him. We are risen with him, because we are one with him. Every believer is, in the purpose of divine grace, identified with Jesus. He was given to the Lord Jesus from before the foundation of the world, and placed under his covenant headship. The Lord Jesus suffered for the believer as his substitute, and virtually each saved one died in Christ, who represented him. The believer rose in Christ by virtue of the eternal union which exists between the saint and his Savior. Therefore the believer continues to live, for the Lord has said, "Because I live, ye shall live also." Our destiny is identified with that of our covenant Head. His life is the model of our experience: he makes us to be conformed to his image now, and we shall be like him when we shall see him as he is. O my hearer, if you are not in Christ you have nothing. Out of Christ you are in the wilderness: with him you are in a paradise. In Christ believers possess all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, and grace, and power, and love. All things are yours, if you are Christ's. From our union to Christ follows our sanctification: we cannot follow after sin, for Christ does not follow after it. He died unto sin once, and we are henceforth dead to it. He is risen by the glory of the Father, and we are risen with him into righteousness, and acceptance, and joy.



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Rom 6:4**
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Can you sin even though you are dead to sin?

We are justified and sanctified in Christ , justified persons are dead to sin, the sin of Adam is no longer imputed to us. It has been crucified on the cross.It no longer holds pleasure for us. We are no longer a servant to sin..we have a new master..Christ.

As one writer put it
" those who are dead to sin, cannot thus live in it, though sin may live in them; they may fall into sin, and lie in it some time, yet they cannot live in it." Gill

We may sin, but sin is no longer our master. We no longer have to sin . Gods grace has made it possible for us not to sin We no longer have to respond to temptation


* Salvation from the Penalty of Sin -- Justification.
* Salvation from the Power of Sin -- Sanctification
* Salvation from the Presence of Sin -- Glorification.

We await the promise of Glorification

How much money have you given to the poor why don’t you tell us so we can justify you? how silly does that sound?

Did you feel that Mother Teresa did the work of God? Was that "silly"

Your" foolish" answer did not address what the bible says..one more time ..the word of God on the topic


Eph 2:10**
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Tts 2:7**
In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine [shewing] uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

What do you think Jesus meant when he told us to so let our light shine before men ?

Mat 5:14**
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

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Mat 5:15**
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

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Mat 5:16**
Let your light so shine before men,] that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Jhn 15:8**
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

james2:14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

One more time a man may have works without faith..but he can not have faith without works.A faith without works is dead. The man does not have saving faith ..
The tree gets no life from its fruit..the fruit gets it's life from the tree

We know the tree by its fruit.

Works are not done to become saved..they are the fruit of our salvation.

As it says in Ephesians..work that was ordained for us by God.

Matt 6: 1"Be careful not to doyour 'acts of righteousness'before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Note this speaks of rewards not salvation ...

This refers to the practice of the Pharisees , that made a great show of their donations.

There were metal boxes outside the temple where alms were given. The Pharisees used large heavy coins to impress the others present. Why should God reward work that has an intent to glorify oneself and earn the accolades of men? They have had their reward.
Those were THEIR acts of righteousness..not for God but for themselves.

Jhn 7:18**
He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him
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......before men, to be seen of them--with the view or intention of being beheld of them. See the same expression in Mat 5:28 . True, He had required them to let their light so shine before men that they might see their good works, and glorify their Father which is in heaven ( Mat 5:16 ). But this is quite consistent with not making a display of our righteousness for self-glorification. In fact, the doing of the former necessarily implies our not doing the latter.
* * * otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven--When all duty is done to God--as primarily enjoining and finally judging of it--He will take care that it be duly recognized; but when done purely for ostentation, God cannot own it, nor is His judgment of it even thought of--God accepts only what is done to Himself. So much for the general principle. Now follow three illustrations of it.
Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown

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Abraham was saved from gen 12 and not gen5 read heb 11:8 or read gen 12 to 15 you see he had to do a lot of things before he was saved

Sorry that was a typo on my part I meant to type 15 ..sorry

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Gen 15:6**
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

That is right standing before God.



No God declared Abraham righteous in Gen 15 , because of His faith in God. It was not the works that led to Abraham being declared righteous..it was faith and trust that was demonstrated by his obedience


.Hebrews actually makes the point that Abraham was saved by faith not works

Hbr 11:8**
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

He had faith before He set out on his journey

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Hbr 11:9**
By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as [in] a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

He traveled in faith

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Hbr 11:10**
For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God.

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Hbr 11:11**
Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

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Hbr 11:12**
Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, [so many] as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. [/b]

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Rom 4:20**
He(Abraham) staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21**
And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22**
And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Rom 4:23**
Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24**
But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
*Rom 4:25**
Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

[/quote]

I wish I could get you to understand Abraham was there before the work of the law, before Moses. You have to ask your self what is the work that was required at the time of Abraham? There were no commandments there wasn’t even circumcision.[/quote]

Abraham was saved as all the OT saints..looking forward to the promises of God

No one is justified by the law. It is impossible for any man to keep the law. That is why we need a savior

"because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight . . . " (Rom. 3:20), "for we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law," (Rom. 3:28), and "For what does the Scripture say? ‘And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness'" (Rom. 4:3), and "Therefore, having been justified by faith . . . " (Rom. 5:1), and "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness" (Rom. 4:5)

The point is Paul is saying to the people that were still obeying the old testament laws for salvation that they can’t save you without faith in jesus.
Look in rom 2: 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[1] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Exactly ..Paul is telling men that they need a savior.No man can keep the law . It is impossible for men. All men are CONDEMNED by the law

Read on

Rom 3:6**
God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
Rom 3:7**
For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
Rom 3:8**
And not [rather], (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
Rom 3:9**
What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10**
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Rom 3:11**
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 3:12**
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Rom 3:13**
Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:

Rom 3:14**
Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:

Rom 3:15**
Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:

Rom 3:16**
Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:

**Rom 3:17**
And the way of peace have they not known:

Rom 3:18**
There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Rom 3:19**
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

*Rom 3:20**
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
The law reflects the character of God.No man can keep it perfectly . When we cover our mouth in shame before God and know that we are all guilty before God we can celebrate our Savior..as you will do shortly :>)

The law condemns us. Christ saves us !

There are way too many verses but I hope these are enough for today’s bible study.

Wow if you think you went on..look at mine :>))

By the way my Christmas is not till Jan 6 but merry Christmas to you.

Merry Christmas to you. I was just teaching my granddaughter about the orthodox Christmas.
Have a blessed Holy Day