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Thanks for clarifying. In light of what you just said, Yes. I want to know from Jews (Messianic or not) why our Jewish brothers DON'T see Yeshua is Messiah? IOW, when Jews read scripture, why do they REJECT Yeshua as Messiah?Are you specifically asking only for responses from Jews only, whether they are Messianic or not? Just trying to clarify because most here are Messianic Gentiles and you will eliminate their responses.
Please PM me then.Sadly, you will not hear the uncensored Jewish voice at CF, unless things have dramatically changed recently. Real Judaism is prohibited.
Mark asked if I would consolidate my opposition to the concept of Jesus as Messiah in part of the conclusion to my debate thread (in which I have more freedom to express divergent opinions). I will certainly do that, but I cannot discuss these things on the community forum for Messianic Judaism. That's my only point.
Hi Truthfrees,
Yes the non Messianic Jews cannot teach against the tenants of MJ doctrine in this forum but at the end of the debate the PG thread in the formal debate area will be open to these questions by you and they can answer your questions in there
Not sure what Pauline doctrine we are considering (we have some folks who are not fans of Paul and their posts on him could conflict with basic MJ teaching) but would love to know what other conflicts are out thereBecause this Messianic Judaism forum is/has been represented by as many Gentile Messianics as Messianic Jews the tenants of MJ doctrine in this forum will commit Yonah to representing doctrine to which he as well as some Messianic Jews question (e.g. so-called Pauline doctrine/theology). Thus, Yonah has to rely on Messianic Gentiles as much or more than Messianic Jews for guidance to stay within the tenet(s) of this forums MJ doctrine (SOP).
However, I have to believe that both Mark and Tishri1 will allow Yonah some freedom as he presents his own view/slant on the tenants of MJ doctrine. This MJ debate/discussion has a long history of diverse religious traditions as far back as the Acts of the Apostles (e.g. Peter, James, John ... as well as Paul).
Thanks for clarifying.Hi Truthfrees,
Yes the non Messianic Jews cannot teach against the tenants of MJ doctrine in this forum but at the end of the debate the PG thread in the formal debate area will be open to these questions by you and they can answer your questions in there
It would be like allowing say non Catholics into the OBOB forum to explain in there why they wont become Catholic....Each forum in this section affords some protection to their group even though here many of our non Messianic friends are like family
Thanks for clarifying.
I guess MJs and our Jewish brothers know where they differ from each other, and I will find out when the debate is concluded.
Thank you that the Jewish perspective will be allowed in the formal debate forum after the close of the thread.
I look forward to hearing from MJ's and our Jewish brothers.
The formal debate forum is a great new experience at CF.
Who's idea was it?
It's proving to be a fine example on how to discuss our disagreements.
Reading through this thread again. It took me several reads to fully understand what you're saying. Thank you for this answer." 1. I want to understand why our Jewish brothers DON'T see the LORD Y’shua is the Messiah."
" 2. Why did the Jews see Y'shua as their Messiah in the apostles' day, but don't now?"
For a variety of reasons. Christianity presents Yeshua - Jesus - as a symbol of their antinomian, un/anti-jewish, gentile ideology that abolishes Torah.
Jews are smart. For Jews, religion is Torah and Torah is religion and invisible things matter very little. If you believe all angels have six wings or four wings, or that that the end is coming in ten years or a thousand years from now, if you believe the moon is made of cheese or not, things like this don't affect halaka and lifestyle and hence do not matter. Catholic and Orthodox churches may split over matters of pure theory, as may Protestant and Messianic groups, but Jews are united since the Torah is all that matters. Since Christianity tries to undo the Torah, the Christ that represents Christianity is not nor can ever be accepted by Torah-obedient Jews.
" What happened to cause our Jewish brothers to change their minds about Y'shua?"
Christianity and anti-nomianism is what happened. The teachings of Yeshua and the Apostles were twisted into Gentile Christianity and basically made into a weird variant of Greek Philosophy-based mystery religion. Of course, many Jews just didn't accept Yeshua at any point to begin with, such as the Sadducees, as is evident in the Gospels. Some didn't accept him due to their own religious convictions, but some Jews were probably just not interested in religion and would have been secular (ie. Hellenized, as the Sadducees were).
It becomes therefore a matter of choosing ---
Plato (being ultimately the core of Christianity, along with Sophocles, Socrates, Aristo, Aeschylus, etc)
or
Torah (the core of Judaism, of Tanak, of all true religion)
I've noticed a change in all the CF forums I post in, especially the Charismatic forum.Its always been Mark's Baby but we moved heaven and earth to make it as nice as it is.... we opened up the subject matter to include many controversial subjects not permitted in other areas and we even created staff positions to accommodate a closer relationship between member and staff to make it personal and pleasant.
Thank you for noticing the place and how special it it
2. Why did the Jews see Yeshua as their Messiah in the apostles' day, but don't now?
The Jews of Jesus' day expected the Messiah to restore the kingdom of Israel.
Luke says, "When they therefore were come together they asked of him saying, 'Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?'"
They didn't hear Jesus' response to Pilate, "My kingdom is not of this world, if my kingdom were of this world then would my servants fight that I should not be delivered to the Jews, but now is my kingdom not from hence."
Jesus did not and has not restored the kingdom to Israel and the Jews reject him as being their Messiah.
I don't think Christians see how Hellenized we are.
If I understand history correctly Rome was Hellenized, making true the original statement of my brother that Christianity has been Hellenized.It's not the Greek church that has influenced Prostestant Christianity, it is the church of Rome. The Roman church takes almost nothing from the NT other than Jesus was resurrected on Sunday. They made up the rest.
The Egyptian obelisk in Vatican Square has nothing to do with the apostles' teachings.
It's not the Greek church that has influenced Prostestant Christianity, it is the church of Rome. The Roman church takes almost nothing from the NT other than Jesus was resurrected on Sunday. They made up the rest.
The Egyptian obelisk in Vatican Square has nothing to do with the apostles' teachings.
Jesus never once claimed to be G-d. He claimed to be the son of G-d.That Obelisk standing in front of the Vatican was dedicated to a walking and breathing God of Rome who was claiming to be God in the same time that Jesus was walking in Jerusalem claiming to also be God.
Jesus never once claimed to be G-d. He claimed to be the son of G-d.
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