Peanut Gallery-Formal Debate-Isaiah 53 is Messianic and Yeshua (Jesus) alone...
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pat34lee
Messianic
From Yonah in post #7
As with earlier judgments against Israel, the whole nation was punished because they deserved it. Although the rain may fall on the just and unjust alike, judgments do not fall on the innocent. If 10 righteous people could have saved Sodom and Gomorrah, what does that tell you about Israel?
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Paul you can most definitely post here now that the debate is concludedBumping this as it got buried
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Having always more questions than answers and ever being aware of the importance of hearing the perspectives of others, I want to say I was so glad to speak with Yonah and would love to see an area where the different strains of Messianic and non-Messianic Judaism can discuss their perspectives...if there is such a place (here or elsewhere) please let me know...okay so, I have just been told about something revealed in both the Jerusalem and the Babylonian Talmuds (the fact not the conclusion).
Allegedly, each year on Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement), the crimson strip, when the sacrifice was made, turned white. This signified that the atonement sacrifice was acceptable. But for 40 years before and until the destruction of the Temple in around 70 A.D., it never again turned white. Why? The people knew that this meant the Yom Kippur sacrifice was no longer acceptable.
This persons explanation was that the final and necessary atonement sacrifice had been made .40 years before the destruction of the temple the Lamb of God (Isaiah 53) was given to be cut off.
What do others think?
Paul
Allegedly, each year on Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement), the crimson strip, when the sacrifice was made, turned white. This signified that the atonement sacrifice was acceptable. But for 40 years before and until the destruction of the Temple in around 70 A.D., it never again turned white. Why? The people knew that this meant the Yom Kippur sacrifice was no longer acceptable.
This persons explanation was that the final and necessary atonement sacrifice had been made .40 years before the destruction of the temple the Lamb of God (Isaiah 53) was given to be cut off.
What do others think?
Paul
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pat34lee
Messianic
Yonah did a good job, considering he was debating the losing side. I didn't post much about the arguments while the debate was going in order to watch it progress naturally, but now I will add my two cents on some of the arguments he used.
2 Bless the Lord, O my soul,
and forget not all his benefits,
3 who forgives all your iniquity,
who heals all your diseases,
Matthew 8:16-17
16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
Isaiah 57:4
4 Against whom do ye sport yourselves? against whom make ye a wide mouth, and draw out the tongue? are ye not children of transgression, a seed of falsehood.
The rest of the 'seed' argument, earlier made by Tovias Singer, is taken apart here:
Answering Judaism: Seed of Isaiah 53:10
Enough for one post. Now to see if anyone reads it.
What they were not told
what they have not heard
(Isaiah 52.15).
What happened when Yeshua went before the rulers, first at the Sanhedrin, then Pilate, Herod and Pilate again? He confounded them so much that they didn't know what to do with him. All of them knew he was innocent. None wanted to be accountable for his death. Not even the Jewish leaders, who roused the mob to cry "His blood be on us and our children".
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him
(Isaiah 53.2).
Yonah blurs the line here between no beauty and ugliness. Some people are especially attractive, and people all turn to look when they walk in. Does that make everyone else repulsive? Of course not. Yeshua was an average looking person, not like a mighty warrior or king. He spoke directly to people's hearts and souls. People heard the truth, and those who could accept it, followed him.
Familiar with pain
(Isaiah 53.3). The word pain here seems to have been inserted by the NIV translators to make the text even more clearly favor the Yeshua interpretation. The Hebrew word is ḥṓlî חֹלִי (choli), which means sickness and not pain.
Psalm 103:2-3
2 Bless the Lord, O my soul,
and forget not all his benefits,
3 who forgives all your iniquity,
who heals all your diseases,
Matthew 8:16-17
16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
He will see his offspring and prolong his days
(Isaiah 53.10).
"The word zera is what is used of offspring, and that is never used to refer to spiritual children (so-to-speak)"
Not quite correct. And disproven in Isaiah, of all places. "The word zera is what is used of offspring, and that is never used to refer to spiritual children (so-to-speak)"
Isaiah 57:4
4 Against whom do ye sport yourselves? against whom make ye a wide mouth, and draw out the tongue? are ye not children of transgression, a seed of falsehood.
The rest of the 'seed' argument, earlier made by Tovias Singer, is taken apart here:
Answering Judaism: Seed of Isaiah 53:10
Enough for one post. Now to see if anyone reads it.
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Oh yeah I definitely have seen that, also a few other things happened too around that time
And no red heifer since then
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pat34lee
Messianic
From post #11
It does not really matter to me what the NIV says over against the KJV or the RSV.
It should, if only as far as clarity for the debate. As someone who knows Hebrew, you are bound to use the most accurate translation that you know. The point of the debate after all is not to win, but to expose the truth.
He made intercession without praying? I would have to have that explained to me.
A lawyer is an intercessor, though only to a degree. They will fight for you in court, but they will not take your punishment for you.
That is, Israel underwent exile and expulsion as the result of the peoples idolatry, but it was also unjust for the righteous remnant to have to suffer in this way (as even with regard to Sodom, we are told that God stated he would not destroy the city for the sake of ten righteous people who might be found there it is contrary to the will of God to destroy the righteous along with the wicked or to allow the suffering of the righteous along with those who actually deserve it).
That isn't always the case, (consider Job or Joseph) but if it were, it pretty much destroys the point you were trying to make. Besides, Israel is the object 'we' in the second part of verse 4. They didn't blame the guilty for their problems. They blamed the only innocent one.
My opponent has stated that it was a fulfillment of prophecy that Yeshua made no complaint as he suffered, yet this can be said about many people in the history of the world.
That is true of many prophecies. Like any description, it takes many details to determine an individual out of a group. Try a physical description: male,brown hair, brown eyes, olive skin, 5'7", 150 lbs, 30 years old. That may describe several million men, or hundreds or thousands in any area. Fortunately, there are hundreds of prophecies that Yeshua fulfilled, that nobody else has (or can).
Isaiah 53 allows for no other identification of the servant than as Israel
On the contrary, Isaiah 53 specifically disallows Israel as the servant in verses 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 11 and 12.
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yonah_mishael
הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם
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Could you specifically mention the parts of these verses that disallow us from identifying Israel as the servant? I have read the passage again and again in Hebrew and English, and I have seen nothing that would disqualify Israel from being in reference here.
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Just as the LORD calls many "sons", He calls many "servant"...but just as there is also a unique one of a kind "son", this "servant" suffers for Isaiah and his people...
Determine who Isaiah and his people are...nowhere in the song does it say they suffer as their own 'asham (guilt or sin offering) to make atonement for themselves!
Determine who Isaiah and his people are...nowhere in the song does it say they suffer as their own 'asham (guilt or sin offering) to make atonement for themselves!
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