Paul Washer

[IisJustMe]

Re: Post #57. At least baptism is biblical. The sinner's prayer is not.

"Confess with you mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9)

Confess what? Jesus as Lord. But is that all you have to do. "The demons also believe, and shudder." (James 2:19b) So it can't be a simple acknowledgement of Christ's identify. What else do we need to confess to separate our faith from the simplistic useless "faith" of demons?

"For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers." (1 Timothy 4:10) So, there is more to that confession than simply knowing the identify of Christ. First, we have "fixed our hope" on God. This is the Greek elpizo, which means in this context -- that such hope is in God -- to wait for salvation with joy and full confidence. So how did we get from a state of hopeless lostness to full confidence in salvation? What change occurred as a result of the confession and the hope?

"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first." (2 Peter 2:20) Well, obviously, those who became entangle in the defilements of the world after hearing of Christ didn't have the change we as believers have. Let's look at that word "defilements" or the Greek miasma. It is just as it sounds, metaphorically man's vices, the foulness of which contaminates one in his intercourse with the ungodly mass of mankind. Sin. So if we have placed our hope in Christ to the extent that we escape this miasma, then we must have confessed something besides the simple identify of Christ.

We have confessed that without Him we are hopeless and lost, we acknowledge that without Him we have no hope of escaping those defilements, and if we can't escape those defilements, we cannot enjoy the fellowship, friendship and saving grace of Christ, for only He can remove them. In short, we must in some form or another let God know we believe all of this and pray for His salvation. That, my friend, whether you like it or not, is a sinner's prayer. Think about it. You don't have to like it. But you can't argue with it.

But you'll probably do so anyway.

 

[greatdivide46]

"Confess with you mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9)

Confess what? Jesus as Lord. But is that all you have to do. "The demons also believe, and shudder." (James 2:19b) So it can't be a simple acknowledgement of Christ's identify. What else do we need to confess to separate our "faith" from the simplistic useless faith of demons?

"For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers." (1 Timothy 4:10) So, there is more to that confession than simply knowing the identify of Christ. First, we have "fixed our hope" on God. This is the Greek elpizo, which means in this context -- that such hope is in God -- to wait for salvation with joy and full confidence. So how did we get from a state of hopeless lostness to full confidence in salvation? What change occurred as a result of the confession and the hope?

"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first." (2 Peter 2:20) Well, obviously, those who became entangle in the defilements of the world after hearing of Christ didn't have the change we as believers have. Let's look at that word "defilements" or the Greek miasma. It is just as it sounds, metaphorically man's vices, the foulness of which contaminates one in his intercourse with the ungodly mass of mankind. Sin. So if we have placed our hope in Christ to the extent that we escape this miasma, then we must have confessed something besides the simple identify of Christ.

We have confessed that without Him we are hopeless and lost, we acknowledge that without Him we have no hope of escaping those defilements, and if we can't escape those defilements, we cannot enjoy the fellowship, friendship and saving grace of Christ, for only He can remove them. In short, we must in some form or another let God know we believe all of this and pray for His salvation. That, my friend, whether you like it or not, is a sinner's prayer. Think about it. you don't have to like it. But you can't argue with it.

But you'll probably do so anyway.

I don't agree, but apparently you don't want to hear dissenting views so I won't give mine.

 

[twin1954]

That's all the sinner's prayer is, not a means of salvation or as Twin1954 has wrongly inferred, something the person thinks he can do to get saved.

I didn't wrongly infer anything. I believe I said it plainly. But just in case you didn't get it I will try to make it even more plain. Evangelism practiced by those who use such things as the 4 spiritual laws and the sinners prayer is preaching a false gospel and promotes works religion. It is focused on getting you to do something. You can deny that fact all you want but it is still true and you know it. The whole point of such a gospel presentation is to get the subject to end up saying the prayer so you can assure him/her of salvation. It makes man the whole determiner of being saved and leaves God and Christ as a bystander hoping to be of use.

I hate to beak it to you but the Gospel isn't about you it is about Christ. Paul didn't determine to preach you can get saved if you will receive Jesus into your hearts. He preached the Lord Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Christ shall have the preemminence in all things, especially the Gospel. Col. 1:18 Freewill works religion always puts the focus on man but the Scriptures and true Gospel preaching puts the focus on Christ.
If you truly want folks to believe on Him then you must seek to force them to do business with Christ. They must do business with Christ and His claims.

 

[IisJustMe]

I don't agree, but apparently you don't want to hear dissenting views so I won't give mine.

I know you don't agree. That's why I included that last sentence.

 

[Hupomone10]

Help me out here. I get it that the sinner's prayer doesn't get someone saved, but why is it that so many on here seem to be resisting as hard as they can the notion of getting the repentant sinner/new believer into contact with the Lord Jesus in an initial prayer? Why, especially in light of God's emphasis on prayer in the Bible?

Why in light of Romans 10:9-10,13-14? In v.8 Paul describes what saves and what he is trying to get across to them: "the word of faith which we are preaching." Then in the next two verses he elaborates on what the practical outworking of that faith looks like, what it will result in if it is real:

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Brothers and sisters, if that isn't coming to God in prayer confessing one's belief in Christ as Savior as payment for their sin and by Whose resurrection they now have eternal life, then what is? He doesn't call it "the sinner's prayer" per se, but it has essentially the same thing Bill Bright's paragraph at the end of Law 4 has.

And who do you confess it to? Certainly it's important to confess Christ before men; but in every instance AFTER salvation we would never find a Christian arguing that talking with men is more important than talking with God; and yet here we have Christians across the board actually doing everything they can to discourage any convicted person from praying to God, actually encouraging him/her to stay away from personal contact with God!

I'm sorry, but that is very strange. Especially in light of these two following verses:

13 "for whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."
14 "How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed?"

The process in Paul's mind can be clearly seen:
1) Preachers are sent by the Holy Spirit.
2) Preachers preach so they might hear the gospel.
3) People who hear then believe.
4) People who believe then call upon the Lord.

Brothers and sisters, the 5-point Calvinists here are not going to change their stance. If you doubt this, refer back to the title of the youtube message by Washer: "...the idolatry of decisional evangelism" They are not going to tolerate any suggestion that you personally decide to put faith in Christ and follow that up in prayer, even though there is no other way to start trusting Christ than a decision. They see such evangelism as an attack on their system which dogmatically insists that man does absolutely nothing in the salvation process and must be in effect passive.

They are not going to listen, but I appeal to the rest of you to consider not throwing the baby out with the bathwater; don't throw out the point of contact between the new believer and Christ, just simply explain it correctly. And by all means use the method endorsed all the way through scripture as the way people come in contact with God - prayer.

In Christ,
H.

 

[strelok0017]

The problem is not prayer but how people handle it and to be honest there is no such thing as "invite Him into your heart" in the Bible. Jesus said that if anyone wants to follow Him they have to deny themselves, take up their cross and follow Him. This sinner's prayer is being handled like a contract you sign with God that makes some feel saved when they have no real relationship with the Lord and no growth in sanctification.

 

[Hupomone10]

Evangelism practiced by those who use such things as the 4 spiritual laws and the sinners prayer is preaching a false gospel and promotes works religion.

No, works religion is promoting works of obedience to the law, whether OT or NT, as a means to achieve righteousness. Paul never confuses decisional faith in Christ with works:

Rom. 3:27
Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. (faith and works contrasted)

Rom 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
(faith and works contrasted)

Rom. 4:4-5
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
(faith and works contrasted)

Rom. 9:31-32
31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.

32 Why? (get ready; here it comes, contrasting works with the faith of which I speak)
Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works.

And then remember Paul's description of a person coming to Christ as "calling on the Lord:"

13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed?

No, brother, I have shown evidence for my position and shown evidence of the ridiculousness of suggesting that bringing a person to saving faith in Christ and praying the sinner's prayer the way the 4 spiritual Laws suggests, is works. Such a suggestion, in light of the above verses in Romans, would be laughable if it weren't so sad. "You can deny that fact all you want but it is still true and you know it."

It (4 spiritual laws gospel presentation) is focused on getting you to do something. I hate to beak it to you but the Gospel isn't about you it is about Christ.
...

If you truly want folks to believe on Him then you must seek to force them to do business with Christ.

I'm sorry, brother, but that last comment - "force them to do business with Christ" - would be "focused on getting them to do something." You would criticize me for making such a statement, but you don't realize that not only do you do the same thing, it's the only way to bring a person to Christ.

What I've noticed with 5-point evangelism - and Paul Washer's sermons and apparently his practices are no exception - is that in the end whenever they are effective in evangelism, it is because they encourage people to decide to believe in Christ just as the rest do, but all the while criticizing the others for their technique.

Very well, at least "in every way Christ is proclaimed." (Philippians)

 

[twin1954]

No, works religion is promoting works of obedience to the law, whether OT or NT, as a means to achieve righteousness. Paul never confuses decisional faith in Christ with works:

Rom. 3:27
Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. (faith and works contrasted)

Rom 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
(faith and works contrasted)

Rom. 4:4-5
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
(faith and works contrasted)

Rom. 9:31-32
31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.

32 Why? (get ready; here it comes, contrasting works with the faith of which I speak)
Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works.

And then remember Paul's description of a person coming to Christ as "calling on the Lord:"

13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed?

No, brother, I have shown evidence for my position and shown evidence of the ridiculousness of suggesting that bringing a person to saving faith in Christ and praying the sinner's prayer the way the 4 spiritual Laws suggests, is works. Such a suggestion, in light of the above verses in Romans, would be laughable if it weren't so sad. "You can deny that fact all you want but it is still true and you know it."
I'm sorry, brother, but that last comment - "force them to do business with Christ" - would be "focused on getting them to do something." You would criticize me for making such a statement, but you don't realize that not only do you do the same thing, it's the only way to bring a person to Christ.

What I've noticed with 5-point evangelism - and Paul Washer's sermons and apparently his practices are no exception - is that in the end whenever they are effective in evangelism, it is because they encourage people to decide to believe in Christ just as the rest do, but all the while criticizing the others for their technique.

Very well, at least "in every way Christ is proclaimed." (Philippians)

Works is anything you do to make God accept you. Faith is simply looking to what Christ has already done. Evangelism that seeks to get you to let God save you is works salvation and the methods show it.

Forcing folks to do business with Christ isn't seeking to get them to do something it is getting them to realize something. If they ever do business with Christ it will have one of two effects: it will make them hardened in the obstinate rebellion or break them. When Christ and the Apostles preached one of two things always happened: folks wanted to kill them and folks believed. But you will be hard pressed to show one instance of either Christ or the Apostles trying to get folks to say a prayer or asking them to let Jesus into your heart. Salvation doesn't come through prayer it comes through faith. Faith doesn't need to say a word it simply looks to Christ. Once faith is in the heart prayer is natural. How many souls are damned because some so-called soul winner had them say a prayer and their faith is in their prayer and not in Christ?

 

[Hupomone10]

Actually read the Bible and find out how God always declares Himself. He never once says He wants, wishes or tries to do anything. He always says "I will" and usually follows it with " you shall".

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

I’ve proven you wrong and shown evidence that it isn’t that simple, but before you go on a tangent trying to redefine the word “any” and “all”…

You also said

The christ that they set forth is a wimp amd a useless figment of the depraved imagination of men. The love of the god they offer is nothing but a pointless emotion that wishes, wants and tries but can't accomplish anything except man give it power by his acts.

Ever heard of this verse?

1 Thess. 4:3
For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;
Do all Christians abstain from sexual immorality?
No.

But how is that possible when it is God’s expressed and revealed will that all abstain from it and God is sovereign? Remember, pastor, in your own words “the true love of God is not only able to accomplish the best for the object of its love but does so.”

So, I ask you: is your god now not able to deliver, to accomplish? Is it God's will that we avoid fornication/adultery but it is not in His power to "accomplish the best for the object of His love?" Or does He know it is the best for us but nevertheless doesn't act to do so, in which case it is not love?

Is the christ that you now “set forth" to us "a wimp and a useless figment of the depraved imagination of men?”

Do you now believe that God’s wishes in regard to immorality are “a pointless emotion that wishes, wants and tries but can't accomplish anything except man give it power by his acts?”

How do your words sound when they are reversed, pastor?

 

[Hupomone10]

The christ that they set forth is a wimp amd a useless figment of the depraved imagination of men. The love of the god they offer is nothing but a pointless emotion that wishes, wants and tries but can't accomplish anything except man give it power by his acts.

There is no salvation in a false god or a false christ. It makes no difference that the majority have followed after him. They have gone down the broad road that leads to destruction.

The simple truth is that the god of modern freewill works religion is no God. He waits on man and desires things for man but cannot do anything that man doesn't give Him permission to do. Natural man will always set himself up as God and will not bow to the only true and living God.

This is a typical rant that is leveled against all who are not 5-point in their theology, which is most of the evangelical population.

First, the accusation that you are not believing in the real God, hence the need to type with small letters for god and christ.

Next, the wording that tries to make legitimate verses of Scripture into man giving permission to God before He can act. But they don’t see the hypocrisy of leveling that charge against others regarding salvation, and yet when it comes to their view of Christians’ moral conduct (or even their own), they don’t see the hypocrisy that would say that admitting one’s responsibility to choose Christ over Self is “approach[ing] the High and Holy One sitting on a throne with your head held high and you chest puffed out” and yet implying it’s just man’s carnal choice if he goes to a sensual site on the internet or looks at a woman lustfully, or drinks enough to get drunk.

It’s funny that they allow the Christian to have choice and don’t regard that as “approaching the High and Holy One sitting on a throne with your head held high and you chest puffed out” when they sin contrary to God’s will, but it is somehow an affront to God and even a belief in a false god to believe that man is responsible for choosing Christ and must make a choice because scripture says so.

And then, lastly the wording ends up accusing you of believing a false gospel or a false god or christ. Such comments as presented here make it clear why I and others occasionally seem to be taking on the 5-point Calvinists as though it is a personal attack when it is not. These and many other comments show that this point of view is an exclusive point of view, an intolerant point of view, because whether its adherents always admit so or not, in their heart they believe that those of us who believe anything less than 5-point Calvinism are believing a false gospel and a false belief.

That is why anyone who believes that Scripture teaches the person’s responsibility to respond to Christ in faith, or that Christ died for all, or that one can resist the grace of God -in fact anyone whose belief system is 4-point Calvinism or less – is viewed not as a brother/sister to fellowship with, but as the enemy, and is treated as such.

And that is why a brother who himself admits he has listened to only ½ of a Paul Washer sermon, would set himself to so adamantly counter anything I say. His belief system has clearly targeted me as the enemy, believes I have embraced a false gospel and false god, even though I embrace him as brother.

I hope that clarifies the struggle on here a little and why it's important to stand up for the truth, especially when the individuals who stand for it are the objects attack by the spirit of exclusivity and unBiblical intolerance that Jesus spoke so much against in His prayer for us in John 17.

This thread is not about you, Twin1954, or about me. It isn't about your exclusive view of the gospel, or mine. Someone presented a sermon by a Baptist pastor in which he openly ridiculed and misrepresented the evangelistic teaching of another fellow pastor. I felt that needed to be addressed.

We are all Baptists. If there is room in the body of Christ for us all, then there should be room in our hearts to embrace with tolerance, even if disagreement, those with whom we disagree.

The agenda of every radical group is
1. Acceptance: you must tolerate my position and accept it as equal.
2. Advocacy: sooner or later it isn't enough that you just accept them, you must also advocate their position or lifestyle.
3. Annihilation: eventually all who don't accept and advocate must be destroyed.

Let us not be like radical groups in our discussions on here. There is no need to accuse other fellow believers of teaching a false gospel or embracing a false god.

Blessings,
H.

 

[Hupomone10]

Works is anything you do to make God accept you.

Agreed. And faith in Christ, the decision to believe in Christ, is not a work, shown already by the verses I included. I noticed you didn't attempt to refute them, so we can agree that the decision to believe in Christ is NOT what the scriptures are talking about in regard to acceptance by God through works.

Faith is simply looking to what Christ has already done.

Agreed.

Evangelism that seeks to get you to let God save you is works salvation and the methods show it.

Evangelism that says God already saved or regenerated/gave life/caused to be born again the person prior to saving faith is unbiblical, and is passive salvation requiring nothing on your part. And since it requires nothing, we would never find the scriptures telling someone they need to believe in Christ to be saved, for it requires nothing from the person. In fact, scriptures tell the opposite, and the person must choose to believe to be born again and saved.

Forcing folks to do business with Christ isn't seeking to get them to do something it is getting them to realize something.

No Baptist (legitimate one) I know or have ever heard has said that one gets saved AFTER the sinner's prayer is prayed; just like no Baptist (legitimate one) I've ever heard said one gets saved AFTER baptism. They all say that regeneration and salvation occur at the moment faith occurs, when the truth is realized and believed.

If they ever do business with Christ it will have one of two effects: it will make them hardened in the obstinate rebellion or break them. When Christ and the Apostles preached one of two things always happened: folks wanted to kill them and folks believed. But you will be hard pressed to show one instance of either Christ or the Apostles trying to get folks to say a prayer or asking them to let Jesus into your heart.

And you will be hard pressed to show one instance of either Christ or the apostles telling folks there was nothing they needed to do in response to the gospel message.

Salvation doesn't come through prayer it comes through faith. Faith doesn't need to say a word it simply looks to Christ.

And again, I am mystified at these attempts by people to keep seekers from approaching the throne of grace.
Heb 4:16
Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Once faith is in the heart prayer is natural.

Prayer is never natural, or we wouldn't have to be encouraged so often against our carnal nature to pray. Anyway, that's as lame an excuse as I've ever heard for trying to talk a person under conviction out of talking with God.

How many souls are damned because some so-called soul winner had them say a prayer and their faith is in their prayer and not in Christ?

According to your belief, none. All who are elect will unfailingly come to Christ. Nothing either the person themselves or the person sharing the gospel does can help or hinder this process because it involves ONLY unconditional election and irresistible grace given by a sovereign God. Which begs the question of why you have such a problem with Bill Bright's presentation. The answer is that all 5-pointers know deep down in their heart that what we do does matter, both the sinner AND the Christian sharing the message (or not doing so).

Conversely, how many souls are damned because some so-called Christian told them there was nothing they could do, that they had no so called responsibility to repent and decide to trust Christ as their Savior, and they went along complacently, fat dumb and happy waiting for God to plop down irresistible faith and will to believe onto them?

 

[greatdivide46]

No Baptist (legitimate one) I know or have ever heard has said that one gets saved AFTER the sinner's prayer is prayed; just like no Baptist (legitimate one) I've ever heard said one gets saved AFTER baptism. They all say that regeneration and salvation occur at the moment faith occurs, when the truth is realized and believed.

What you say may be true, but every invitation I've ever heard given by a baptist preacher strongly implies that salvation comes after the sinner's prayer. This is especially true in revivals that are held in baptist churches. The main thing that a person is always told to do is prayer this prayer -- and then words are supplied that a person can repeat -- and you will be saved. Not pray this prayer because you're already saved.

As far as baptism goes, I agree with you on that one

 

[gwrichardson]

I prefer to hear someone who seeks and preaches truth, in honesty, and to the best of their ability. I don't like to hear anyone parrot what they've heard others say. That is just promoting what is 'socially acceptable' within the church, or denomination as a whole.

 

[AndOne]

I prefer to hear someone who seeks and preaches truth, in honesty, and to the best of their ability. I don't like to hear anyone parrot what they've heard others say. That is just promoting what is 'socially acceptable' within the church, or denomination as a whole.

I like to hear someone who parrots the Bible...

 

[gwrichardson]

Don't we all.

 

[Hupomone10]

I like to hear someone who parrots the Bible...

I like your signature!

"Everyone with a lock on their door is at least a 1-point Calvinist."

 

[AndOne]

I like your signature!

"Everyone with a lock on their door is at least a 1-point Calvinist."

Thanks!

 

[strelok0017]

^


What does that mean tho?