Paul vs James who is right?

[mark kennedy]

Dude, you keep hijacking this to ‘the poor’. The OP is about justification . .
Tell us what are YOU are doing for the poor? Are you doing what Jesus said to do? Mat 19:21, Mk 10:21 Tell us about it.

The OP is questioning about the DIFFERENCES not the similarities.

The OP is assuming differences that disappear when you read the context and clearly, James is emphasizing how the rich treated the poor. A text without a context is a pretext and the argument is from the text itself if you would actually read it.

 

[Rita G.]

@ mark kennedy As long as we are 'assuming' other's intentions, can I assume you are dodging my question on how you do Mat 19:21, Mk 10:21?

 

[Sam91]

As long as we are 'assuming' other's intentions, can I assume you are dodging my question on how you do Mat 19:21, Mk 10:21?

Can u see my posts or did u press to avoid member?

 

[bugkiller]

If there are no works, there never was any faith. That is what James said. What Paul said is NOT that you can have "faith" that is dead and be just fine. Even the demons believe and tremble. Are they saved?

Would you kindly list bout ten or so of your works?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

It is not "proof", it is simple fact. Faith without works is dead. God is the God of the living, not of the dead. Thus, if you have "faith" but no "work", then you go to the god of the dead and are not for the God of the living. If there are no works, there was no actual faith in the first place.

Pardon me. If works are not proof, why is James saying they are?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

no if it is of belief or faith it is not of works

Romans 4 - 5. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

Notice the words “his faith”

Jesus asked some “where is YOuR faith ?”

I do not think you understand work. Yes Eph 2:8-9 says - not of works, but what works?

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The next verse says - 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Remember it is not our works in v 9. We have nothing to boast about. Verse 10 says we are created unto good works and we are to walk in them. Hmmm! Is that a contradiction? No!

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Do you people have a problem reading?

The difference (between Paul and James) is the means of JUSTIFICATION . . read my lips . .
J U S T I F I C A T I O N . . . look for the word JUSTIFIED

Galatians 2:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

James 2:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Paul teaches JUSTIFICATION by faith ALONE

James teaches JUSTIFICATION by faith PLUS WORKS

get it yet?

2 different programs!

DIFFERENT = THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT ARE NOT THE SAME!

Get it yet?

I see both Paul and James do not require the works of the law. They are in agreement. Same program. Jam 2 and Eph 2.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

We all get what you are saying and still believe it's wrong! You ought to read both Romans (completely) and James (completely) about 20 times each and search for the true meaning. You don't have it yet.

This link might help:
James Vs. Paul | Monergism
TD

I will throw in Ephesians for good measure.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

James was simply saying when Christians know Jesus is the real deal, and God, but they do not do what Jesus said, have no deeds, they should take warning: like the demons, they know, but they have no faith.

It is really quite simple.

Many, many "Christians" in this very place. And have been all along.

What are those deeds? Name some of them.

bugkiller

 

[mark kennedy]

@ mark kennedy As long as we are 'assuming' other's intentions, can I assume you are dodging my question on how you do Mat 19:21, Mk 10:21?

Dodging what exactly, you don't want to look at the context of the text in question and offer some random text citations.

Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Matthew 19:21)

Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." (Mark 10:21)​

He was covetous, that is the point. So were the rich who mistreated the poor in James 2 and 1 Corinthians 11.

 

[Rita G.]

He was covetous, that is the point. So were the rich who mistreated the poor

Yeah . . sure . . the rich COVETING the poor? . . maybe on your planet.

So, whats the word ‘justified’ doing in James 2:24?

 

[Wordkeeper]

Dodging what exactly, you don't want to look at the context of the text in question and offer some random text citations.

Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Matthew 19:21)

Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." (Mark 10:21)​

He was covetous, that is the point. So were the rich who mistreated the poor in James 2 and 1 Corinthians 11.

Actually you are dodging the teaching that everybody is covetous, unwilling to give up everything they own to become a disciple:

Luke 14:33
33So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

 

[mark kennedy]

Yeah . . sure . . the rich COVETING the poor? . . maybe on your planet.

So, whats the word ‘justified’ doing in James 2:24?

Justified (G1344 δικαιόω dikaioō), it means

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be. (Outline of Biblical Usage)

Jesus uses this word to explain why he preached to ‘publicans and sinners’, saying ‘wisdom is justified G1344 of her children. (Matt. 11:19). He further used it to speak of final judgment:

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, G1344 and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. (Matt. 12:37)​

We are use to thinking of justification by grace through faith as salvation itself, it is, but it’s just the beginning. Wisdom is justified by her children because the publicans and sinners were repenting while the self righteous were not. We are justified by faith but God is justified by repentance:

And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified G1344 God, being baptized with the baptism of John. (Luke 7:29)​

In other words they recognized the righteousness of God, which is why they repented. The root for this word (1342 δίκαιος dikaios), is most often translated ‘righteous’ or ‘just’. God doesn’t save you by just forgiving you of your previous offenses, he does that, but that is called forgiveness. Being justified is more then being forgiven, it’s when God ‘renders’ is sinner ‘just’ or ‘righteous’. James is simply saying that Abraham originally believed the one who made the promise, not even believing he could have a son. Much later in life, when he was over a hundred years old, he was willing to sacrifice his son because he believed God could raise him from the dead. Initially yes, it's by grace through faith apart from works but the seed of faith has to mature and bear fruit to the glory of the Father.

That's how salvation works, it's not enough to be innocent, God must make you righteous. The people James is addressing weren't doing that after having been Christians for years, maybe decades. James is saying, is this even saving faith? Because if it were by now, you would be bearing the peaceable fruits of righteousness, not taking advantage of the poor.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[mark kennedy]

Actually you are dodging the teaching that everybody is covetous, unwilling to give up everything they own to become a disciple:

Luke 14:33
33So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

Hardly, yes we are all sinners. Some of us are just more aware of it then others.

 

[Danthemailman]

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In a nutshell, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

 

[Wordkeeper]

Hardly, yes we are all sinners. Some of us are just more aware of it then others.

You claimed that only the rich were covetous.
I'm on the governing board of a seminary. I just spoke with the dean on the same issue.

At first, he dodged it like you did. Then he admitted it was true. The condition for being a disciple is to repent. Give up serving mammon, begin to serve God. You couldn't do both. It's a binary. Either you're against Christ or for Him.

The problem with dodging is that many are misled, and will hear the dreaded words, "Get away from me, I never knew you".

 

[Rita G.]

@ kennedy & mailman (probably same person)
While you 2 were waltzing around the issues, I played some music by Strauss.

 

[Danthemailman]

@ kennedy & mailman (probably same person)
While you 2 were waltzing around the issues, I played some music by Strauss.

Same person? You mean while I was properly harmonizing scripture with scripture, you played some music by Strauss.

 

[mark kennedy]

You claimed that only the rich were covetous.

I claimed no such thing, I said the rich were depriving the poor in the love feasts.

I'm on the governing board of a seminary. I just spoke with the dean on the same issue.

At first, he dodged it like you did. Then he admitted it was true. The condition for being a disciple is to repent. Give up serving mammon, begin to serve God. You couldn't do both. It's a binary. Either you're against Christ or for Him.

Uhhh ok...

The problem with dodging is that many are misled, and will hear the dreaded words, "Get away from me, I never knew you".

I'll tell you what's misleading, it's putting words in my mouth, it's disingenuous at best. When Jesus condemns the hypocrites of the Great White Throne judgment he says I was hungry you did not feed me, I was thirsty you did not give me to drink...etc. The poor were coming to these love feasts and while the rich feed their faces they went hungry. They dragged the poor into court which James calls blasphemy. Why is that blasphemy you might ask, because a slanderous accusation against a believer is something Christ takes personally.

I dodged nothing.

 

[mark kennedy]

@ kennedy & mailman (probably same person)
While you 2 were waltzing around the issues, I played some music by Strauss.

Wow, crass insinuations, this is getting to be a trend in this thread. I haven't had a sock puppet account since I was a moderator and that was ten years ago. While you were listening to Strauss I was doing an exegetical treatment of the text. You should try it sometime, or at least read the text in it's natural context.