Paul vs James who is right?

[mark kennedy]

Sorry I'm way behind on this thread. Of just like to point out to those who say Paul and James were in agreement. If Paul believed that a true faith would have good works and a faith that doesn't have works won't save why did Paul write in Romans 4:5

Ok, the Pauline doctrine of justification by faith was apart from works of the Law. This is not a bar nor does it negate the need for works of righteousness, specifically bearing the fruit of the Spirit. Speaking of Abraham Paul tells us:

Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. (Rom. 4:20-24)
​

Paul worked, Paul actually worked harder then the other Apostles and he tells us why:

For I am the least of the apostles and am unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace to me was not in vain. No, I worked harder than all of them — yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed. (1 Cor. 15:9-11)​

This is what 'we', as Christians, are all supposed to believe. That grace not only justifies, sanctifies but equips us for service. James is not talking about works of the Law because it made no real provision for the rich having compassion on the poor except, you should love your neighbor as yourself.

"But a person who does not work but instead trusts God. His faith is counted for righteousness?" Paul did in fact say in Ephesians 2 that a saved person SHOULD walk in the good works that God has prepared in advance for them to do but Paul did NOT believe that those who didn't would be unsaved. James did. Therefore Paul and James believed two different things and didn't agree with each other on this pretty big detail. Hence why I made this thread. I'm curious who was right. Are we not saved If we do not have works or are we not? Just what was James's view on the subject? Why did the two apostles disagree with each other on such a crucial point? I mean they both agreed with each other that a Christian SHOULD have good works but they did not agree on whether or not we are ultimately saved by a faith that works.

Paul had a distinctive writing style, doctrine first and the later, once the doctrine is established, what we must do is emphasized. Yes in Ephesians Paul emphasizes the death of the old man, describing the new man that emerges. What is it that Paul says that new man will be characterized by?

I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ. (Eph. 3:16-18)​

That is firmly in the doctrinal portion of the letter to the Ephesians. Ok Paul, we get the general lesson you have for us, we understand the doctrine. What is it that we are required to do beyond believing the gospel and expressing the love of God in our hearts?

As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. (Eph. 4:1-2)​

That's how the practical portion of the letter begins, we should bear one another in love. That's where the works come from and if you are not seeing that in your life the question becomes, is this even saving faith? Do you honestly think faith is going to sit there and do nothing and certainly, do you think it's going to rise up and mistreat other believers? Of course not, James talks about the Royal Law, he qualifies his statement before his remark about faith without works.

Feel free to check the context and correct me if I'm wrong.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[fhansen]

Sorry I'm way behind on this thread. Of just like to point out to those who say Paul and James were in agreement. If Paul believed that a true faith would have good works and a faith that doesn't have works won't save why did Paul write in Romans 4:5

"But a person who does not work but instead trusts God. His faith is counted for righteousness?" Paul did in fact say in Ephesians 2 that a saved person SHOULD walk in the good works that God has prepared in advance for them to do but Paul did NOT believe that those who didn't would be unsaved. James did. Therefore Paul and James believed two different things and didn't agree with each other on this pretty big detail. Hence why I made this thread. I'm curious who was right. Are we not saved If we do not have works or are we not? Just what was James's view on the subject? Why did the two apostles disagree with each other on such a crucial point? I mean they both agreed with each other that a Christian SHOULD have good works but they did not agree on whether or not we are ultimately saved by a faith that works.

Faith is not just about believing; even demons believe. Faith is an act, from its beginning through the end of our lives. And its about change, in us. Because faith is more than to simply believe some information given, or even more than trusting; faith is to engage, with God, in a relationship that cannot help but change us to the extent that we remain in Him and He in us. Faith and obedience and good works as per Eph 2:10 cannot and should not be separated; they're inextricably bound. Would Abraham have been considered righteous if he had not acted as he did? With faith we become, among other things, servants of God. Consider the fate of the servant in the Parable of the Talents who did not "invest" what was given him in order to produce fruit for the master. And the main fruit of faith, the main definition of righteousness or justice that describes the change that our relationship or communion with God should make in us, is love, from which all other genuine fruit will flow. With mere belief, without change, however small at first, no justification has been accomplished. And so Jesus's words in Matt 25:31-46, speaking of how we'll be judged according to what we've done, are consistent with Paul's teachings because they begin with faith. Faith without obedience is no faith worth having. And obedience without love is only a pretense. So faith must involve love in order for us to be justified. And Paul knew this. "...if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing." "So now these three remain, faith, hope, and love, but the most important of these is love." 1 Cor 13

Paul was battling legalism, the notion that we could prove or make ourselves righteous by our own efforts, with external shows of obedience and holiness. No change, no humble acceptance of our need for God in order to achieve a state of righteousness within. Faith is this humble acceptance, faith is the beginning and the essence of intimate knowledge of God, 'apart from whom we can do nothing' but 'with whom all things are possible'.

 

[tdidymas]

you still can't :
"prove that jews were NOT under covenant. . and then prove that gentiles were."
c'mon dude, . . .
or maybe you just . . can't

In order to understand that both Jews and Gentiles were under the same covenant, you must first answer the question, which covenant? The fact that the Sinaitic covenant was obsolete at that time is clearly stated in Heb. 8:13. Jesus is now mediating the New Covenant, since His resurrection. The fact that both Jew and Gentile believers are under this covenant is clearly taught in the NT. The covenant states (Heb. 10:6) "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them" - obviously, since the Hebrews were being written to, we can safely say the Jewish believers were in it. Are Gentile believers also in the same covenant?
Grafted in - Rom. 11:13-27
Their hearts have God's law, as the covenant declares - Rom. 2:14-15
There is no difference between them - Rom. 2:10, Rom. 3:22, Gal. 3:28, Col. 3:11
TD

 

[ToBeLoved]

Sorry I'm way behind on this thread. I'd just like to point out to those who say Paul and James were in agreement. If Paul believed that a true faith would have good works and a faith that doesn't have works won't save why did Paul write in Romans 4:5

"But a person who does not work but instead trusts God. His faith is counted for righteousness?" Paul did in fact say in Ephesians 2 that a saved person SHOULD walk in the good works that God has prepared in advance for them to do but Paul did NOT believe that those who didn't would be unsaved. James did. Therefore Paul and James believed two different things and didn't agree with each other on this pretty big detail. Hence why I made this thread. I'm curious who was right. Are we not saved If we do not have works or are we not? Just what was James's view on the subject? Why did the two apostles disagree with each other on such a crucial point? I mean they both agreed with each other that a Christian SHOULD have good works but they did not agree on whether or not we are ultimately saved by a faith that works.

I agree. I think James and Paul are in agreement also.

Haven't read through the entire thread so somone may have already mentioned this, but James and Peter were over the church in Jerusalem and their main audience was Jewish people's whereas, Paul was the apostle to the gentiles and since the gentiles were never under the law in the first place, Paul doesnt need to deal with these issues like Peter and James do because of who the converts were and whether they knew the OT before coming to Christ.

 

[mark kennedy]

I agree. I think James and Paul are in agreement also.

Haven't read through the entire thread so somone may have already mentioned this, but James and Peter were over the church in Jerusalem and their main audience was Jewish people's whereas, Paul was the apostle to the gentiles and since the gentiles were never under the law in the first place, Paul doesnt need to deal with these issues like Peter and James do because of who the converts were and whether they knew the OT before coming to Christ.

Nice summation, but I would add, Paul was there at the Council of Jerusalem.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[ToBeLoved]

Nice summation, but I would add, Paul was there at the Council of Jerusalem.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Right. Paul converted many Jewish people’s also and was in Jerusalem sometimes and did meet with the other apostles when needed.

My point was that he focused more on gentile areas mostly.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Sorry I'm way behind on this thread. I'd just like to point out to those who say Paul and James were in agreement. If Paul believed that a true faith would have good works and a faith that doesn't have works won't save why did Paul write in Romans 4:5

"But a person who does not work but instead trusts God. His faith is counted for righteousness?" Paul did in fact say in Ephesians 2 that a saved person SHOULD walk in the good works that God has prepared in advance for them to do but Paul did NOT believe that those who didn't would be unsaved.

Are you sure about that? You might want to read all of Romans and Ephesians if you're thinking that, along with all of his other work in the N.T. Then, compare all of that with the one little letter we have from James.

... James did. Therefore Paul and James believed two different things and didn't agree with each other on this pretty big detail. Hence why I made this thread. I'm curious who was right. Are we not saved If we do not have works or are we not? Just what was James's view on the subject? Why did the two apostles disagree with each other on such a crucial point? I mean they both agreed with each other that a Christian SHOULD have good works but they did not agree on whether or not we are ultimately saved by a faith that works.

I think if you take all the contexts into consideration, you'll find that the issue really boils down to realizing that Paul focuses on one nuance of faith (i.e. not having to specifically follow the O.T.) and James focuses on another (i.e. having good works in general as a part of faith). So, once you've done you're homework, I'm sure you'll see that Paul and James aren't actually addressing identical contexts, even when they're both talking about Abraham (who was justified by faith before the Law came along through the hands of Moses).

 

[mark kennedy]

Right. Paul converted many Jewish people’s also and was in Jerusalem sometimes and did meet with the other apostles when needed.

My point was that he focused more on gentile areas mostly.

Paul and Barnabas had just returned from his first Missionary Journey with Barnabas when the Council of Jerusalem happened. The letter James spoke of was the book of Galatians written by Paul.

 

[Grip Docility]

Sorry I'm way behind on this thread. I'd just like to point out to those who say Paul and James were in agreement. If Paul believed that a true faith would have good works and a faith that doesn't have works won't save why did Paul write in Romans 4:5

"But a person who does not work but instead trusts God. His faith is counted for righteousness?" Paul did in fact say in Ephesians 2 that a saved person SHOULD walk in the good works that God has prepared in advance for them to do but Paul did NOT believe that those who didn't would be unsaved. James did. Therefore Paul and James believed two different things and didn't agree with each other on this pretty big detail. Hence why I made this thread. I'm curious who was right. Are we not saved If we do not have works or are we not? Just what was James's view on the subject? Why did the two apostles disagree with each other on such a crucial point? I mean they both agreed with each other that a Christian SHOULD have good works but they did not agree on whether or not we are ultimately saved by a faith that works.

A person can have all faith... but without Love they are nothing..

A person can give all they have to the poor... without Love... nothing...

That’s Paul

 

[aiki]

Sorry I'm way behind on this thread. I'd just like to point out to those who say Paul and James were in agreement. If Paul believed that a true faith would have good works and a faith that doesn't have works won't save why did Paul write in Romans 4:5

"But a person who does not work but instead trusts God. His faith is counted for righteousness?"

I think your question here has already been fully answered in this thread. Why won't you accept the answers that have been offered? Why just throw out this additional protest rather than properly countering the arguments you've rejected? What's the point in responding to your questions when, apparently, you'll just ignore them?

Paul did in fact say in Ephesians 2 that a saved person SHOULD walk in the good works that God has prepared in advance for them to do but Paul did NOT believe that those who didn't would be unsaved.

Paul did not believe a saving faith would remain unexpressed in the manner of one's living. Over and over again in his letters he indicates that genuine salvation results in a transformed life. Here are a few good examples:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

And,

Romans 8:5-6
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

And,

Galatians 5:19-23
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

Clearly, Paul taught that a changed life, a Spirit-led life, was the inevitable - and obvious - consequence of genuine salvation. He is very plain in the above instances that those who live wicked lives as a matter of course would not inherit the kingdom of God.

Therefore Paul and James believed two different things and didn't agree with each other on this pretty big detail.

As has been well-explained to you, this is not so. Paul and James were not in disagreement.

Are we not saved If we do not have works or are we not?

Is an apple tree an apple tree if it never bears apples? Yes, it is. But such a condition is unnatural; fruitlessness is indicative of something seriously wrong with the tree. Ordinarily, an apple tree bears apples. So, too, in the life of a genuinely born-gain believer. If there is no corresponding spiritual "fruit" in the life of a saved person, there is something seriously wrong spiritually.

Why did the two apostles disagree with each other on such a crucial point?

As has been explained to you, they didn't.

 

[Rita G.]

I'm curious who was right

At that time, during the “transitional” period, they were both right.
The covenant dispensation was coming to an end, and the dispensation of grace was beginning.

 

[fhansen]

A person can have all faith... but without Love they are nothing..

A person can give all they have to the poor... without Love... nothing...

That’s Paul

Yes, Augustine understood this too. "Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing".

 

[bugkiller]

Why's that?

Everyone will worship in Jerusalem according to your post. I think it would also be smart to bu a hotel.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

One of the things to remember when comparing Paul with the other Apostles, (such as James) is that through the special ministry Paul was given, gentiles could now be saved WITHOUT going through Israel.

Thanks for this much of your post.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Choice and sincereity to God are the “Requirements”... Choice to rely on Jesus’ works and the Love that flows to Jesus, self and all humanity after making that humble choice are all there is to do.

If people actually think it goes beyond that... they are suggesting the impossible.

If Jesus didn’t really pay the full tab... we are all debtors bound to be in eternal debt.

I fully agree with you.

I would even go so far as to say that many that never knew His name will be saved by what He did...

Thanks. That choice to accept the ability to believe will radically change one's lifestyle. That choice will not ever bind one to the law covenant.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

If you read the letter of James a number of times, you will notice more deeply what James is really saying. For example, please read the following verse and think about what James is asking.

James 2:14
What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

In other words, James is asking and rightly so; Can a person claim to be justified by faith while ignoring the suffering of another Christian?

James is honestly asking you; whether a genuine faith has anything to do with helping another Christian?

Is there any definable relationship between faith and love, a rather interesting question that James raises?

Is justifying faith supposed to be an active faith or can it be a idle faith?

Can a Christian by definition, be devoid of any trace of love towards others?

James 2:18
But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

See how James places the emphasis on faith first, 'I will show you my faith by my works'.

James will show you real faith, faith that is living and breathing, a faith that is in service to the author of life. By how the faith of James behaves towards others, those less fortunate Christians.

Are you now, having been justified by faith immune to the plight of other Christians?

Are you indebted to God in anyway by being saved by Grace through faith?

Does God require anything from you in return for that free gift of eternal life?

The question of James does provoke some serious thought, what does faith really mean?

It is a work to believe. That work is not even ours, it was given to us by God. IOW it was not just our doing.

bugkiller

 

[Devin P]

Everyone will worship in Jerusalem according to your post. I think it would also be smart to bu a hotel.

bugkiller

Well, I mean according to the bible, but yeah. If Israel wasn't doomed for destruction, then yeah it would be a great idea haha. Kind of. Sukkoth is where we live in temporary dwellings. Generally that we put up ourselves, as in tents and such. So, hotels probably wouldn't do great haha. It's a funny thought though for sure.

 

[bugkiller]

Sorry I'm way behind on this thread. I'd just like to point out to those who say Paul and James were in agreement. If Paul believed that a true faith would have good works and a faith that doesn't have works won't save why did Paul write in Romans 4:5

"But a person who does not work but instead trusts God. His faith is counted for righteousness?" Paul did in fact say in Ephesians 2 that a saved person SHOULD walk in the good works that God has prepared in advance for them to do but Paul did NOT believe that those who didn't would be unsaved. James did. Therefore Paul and James believed two different things and didn't agree with each other on this pretty big detail. Hence why I made this thread. I'm curious who was right. Are we not saved If we do not have works or are we not? Just what was James's view on the subject? Why did the two apostles disagree with each other on such a crucial point? I mean they both agreed with each other that a Christian SHOULD have good works but they did not agree on whether or not we are ultimately saved by a faith that works.

Believing God is a work and is also called fruit.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Well, I mean according to the bible, but yeah. If Israel wasn't doomed for destruction, then yeah it would be a great idea haha. Kind of. Sukkoth is where we live in temporary dwellings. Generally that we put up ourselves, as in tents and such. So, hotels probably wouldn't do great haha. It's a funny thought though for sure.

Just how many tents will fit in Israel? You can not stack tents.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Ok, the Pauline doctrine of justification by faith was apart from works of the Law. This is not a bar nor does it negate the need for works of righteousness, specifically bearing the fruit of the Spirit. Speaking of Abraham Paul tells us:

Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. (Rom. 4:20-24)
​

Paul worked, Paul actually worked harder then the other Apostles and he tells us why:

For I am the least of the apostles and am unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace to me was not in vain. No, I worked harder than all of them — yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed. (1 Cor. 15:9-11)​

This is what 'we', as Christians, are all supposed to believe. That grace not only justifies, sanctifies but equips us for service. James is not talking about works of the Law because it made no real provision for the rich having compassion on the poor except, you should love your neighbor as yourself.




Paul had a distinctive writing style, doctrine first and the later, once the doctrine is established, what we must do is emphasized. Yes in Ephesians Paul emphasizes the death of the old man, describing the new man that emerges. What is it that Paul says that new man will be characterized by?

I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ. (Eph. 3:16-18)​

That is firmly in the doctrinal portion of the letter to the Ephesians. Ok Paul, we get the general lesson you have for us, we understand the doctrine. What is it that we are required to do beyond believing the gospel and expressing the love of God in our hearts?

As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. (Eph. 4:1-2)​

That's how the practical portion of the letter begins, we should bear one another in love. That's where the works come from and if you are not seeing that in your life the question becomes, is this even saving faith? Do you honestly think faith is going to sit there and do nothing and certainly, do you think it's going to rise up and mistreat other believers? Of course not, James talks about the Royal Law, he qualifies his statement before his remark about faith without works.

Feel free to check the context and correct me if I'm wrong.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Works are being mistaken for religious based and caused activity.

bugkiller