Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
If a carpenter wouldn't sit in a chair he built, I wouldn't say he had faith in his skills.
If a man does not obey the Lord and do what is commanded of him, I would not say he had faith in Christ.
The issue isn't a matter of proof, or requirement. It's simply a logical consequent. Faith by its very nature produces works, so if there are no works there is no faith. Which is what James is saying.
While its true Luther added the word "alone" in German, I think its a contextually warranted inference. Though I do think that Romans has become overly fixated upon and is largely misunderstood since it tends to be a starting point for understanding rather than a concluding synthesis. To understand Paul's words to the Romans requires understanding the Old Testament theology he was drawing upon, yet more often Romans is interpreted from the model of Roman jurisprudence instead and then the Old Testament references interpreted from that vantage. As for sacramental theology, I'm of the opinion that the sacraments are efficacious not because of their ritual or adminstrative properties but only when they are physical maniifestations of the internal obedience of faith. Faith is fundamental in salvation, and finds its expression in works(including sacramental works).This is a logical argument.
For me this is all much less of an issue because while I believe we are saved by faith through grace under normal conditions, I do not believe faith is the sole means of salvation, in part because the Epistle to the Romans does not say that in the original Greek (Luther added the word alone to the Luther Bible on his own authority, according to him). I think the ordinary means of obtaining salvific grace is sacramental, with faith obviously needed in adults, and there are also extraordinary means, such as martyrdom, which is faith reflected in a work, and special recourse to divine mercy.
While its true Luther added the word "alone" in German, I think its a contextually warranted inference.
Since someone has resurrected this thread, I feel encouraged to post an update also. I think the crux of the question has to do with how one defines faith. So it boils down to the question what kind of faith do we have, and what is that faith in?
It seems to me that faith is trusting in something. We trust that the Bible is the word of God, that God was able and willing to communicate to us through writings of the prophets and apostles (and other prominent Christians of the day) - so faith is an assumption about what the Bible is, and what it teaches.
So, when Paul wrote "with the heart man believes unto righteousness," he is talking about assuming that Christ has delivered us from the nature of sin (that is, the principle thereof), which is the same as using our imagination to reach out to God for making us righteous. If we are in Christ, then we are reaching to God with heart-faith for righteousness. And since deliverance from the sin principle is ongoing in this life, we continue living this heart-faith.
"With the heart man believes..." - meaning that we actively imagine God helping us live at all times. So God is with us at all times, and not someone "out there, demanding we do things by our own strength and willpower". So the ethical commands aren't "do this or be condemned," but rather "Christ has done so much for us, that we are so grateful as to love Him with all our heart, to do whatever He says.
"...unto righteousness" - so that our right standing with God is not merely a position in Christ, but is an active and vital role that God is producing right living through us. And here is James also using the idea, since he says "faith without works is dead." He is emphasizing that the right kind of faith is that kind which obeys Christ's command to love others in a practical way. Yet, when he says "faith without works," he is stooping to the level of the gnostics (or whoever is claiming to have faith in the wrong way) in his usage of the term, in order to distinguish between the claim of faith and actual faith in Christ.
And we can see the same idea taught by the writer of Hebrews (a third witness) when he wrote about those people who died in the wilderness of Numbers, saying about their unbelief "they did not mix what they heard with faith." (Heb. 4:2 - I come to this paraphrase after comparing different translations). He uses the term faith in the same manner.
So what James is writing against is the idea that someone having faith in Christ can do just anything they want (namely practice class prejudice) and still be saved. He is saying that's not real faith in Christ, and that's why it's "dead." Someone having real faith is going to love their neighbor in the same way that Christ does and commanded us to do.
This is the only kind of faith that makes "sola fide" correct in the Biblical framework. It's the only kind of faith that measures up to what the whole NT is about.
Okay so here's a question I've been wondering for a while. In several places in the bible (Romans 4:5) (Titus 6) (Ephesians 2)...etc Paul has fought for the case that we are ultimately saved by our faith and not by our works. Yet in James 2 James seems to be stating the opposite while quoting Paul. Now I've heard this explained several different ways. One way was that James was talking about our justification by men is by works and that our justification from God is by faith. Another explanation that I've heard is that James was saying that a true faith would have works and those who have faith but don't have works aren't saved. But this explanation was refuted by Jesus himself when he said that not a single believer would be lost in John 6:37-40. And the entire bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus are eternally secure (John 10). The last explanation that I've heard was that James was saying exactly what he seemed to be saying. That we are justified by works and not by faith. To me this seems to be what James was saying so... Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?
Okay so here's a question I've been wondering for a while. In several places in the bible (Romans 4:5) (Titus 6) (Ephesians 2)...etc Paul has fought for the case that we are ultimately saved by our faith and not by our works. Yet in James 2 James seems to be stating the opposite while quoting Paul. Now I've heard this explained several different ways. One way was that James was talking about our justification by men is by works and that our justification from God is by faith. Another explanation that I've heard is that James was saying that a true faith would have works and those who have faith but don't have works aren't saved. But this explanation was refuted by Jesus himself when he said that not a single believer would be lost in John 6:37-40. And the entire bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus are eternally secure (John 10). The last explanation that I've heard was that James was saying exactly what he seemed to be saying. That we are justified by works and not by faith. To me this seems to be what James was saying so... Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?
What's funny about people trying to use James' words as a stick to make people perform is the "works" that James points to for Abraham's justification. Abraham's works were that he was willing to give up Isaac because he trusted God, as Hebrews tells us his reasoning was God could raise the dead. What justified Abraham is not the building of the pyre, nor binding Isaac's hand and foot and lifting the knife to perform the act but that Abraham had full faith and confidence that he would lose nothing through the deed.They are not in conflict. One isn't saved by her/his works, but by faith in God through Jesus Christ. What James is saying is that if you have been blessed by God with salvation then you shouldn't just "sit on your hands" and do nothing. Since you have Jesus as your Lord then you're expected to do what He directs, using the gifts and talents He has given you. It does not mean that if you are idle you aren't saved.\
I'm 78 and there are days when I lack the energy to do certain things. Does that mean that I'm not saved? Of course not.
What's funny about people trying to use James' words as a stick to make people perform is the "works" that James points to for Abraham's justification. Abraham's works were that he was willing to give up Isaac because he trusted God, as Hebrews tells us his reasoning was God could raise the dead. What justified Abraham is not the building of the pyre, nor binding Isaac's hand and foot and lifting the knife to perform the act but that Abraham had full faith and confidence that he would lose nothing through the deed.
But do you know why God had him do it, etc...?What's funny about people trying to use James' words as a stick to make people perform is the "works" that James points to for Abraham's justification. Abraham's works were that he was willing to give up Isaac because he trusted God, as Hebrews tells us his reasoning was God could raise the dead. What justified Abraham is not the building of the pyre, nor binding Isaac's hand and foot and lifting the knife to perform the act but that Abraham had full faith and confidence that he would lose nothing through the deed.
But I'll give you just one clue, etc...But do you know why God had him do it, etc...?
Because I'm betting none of you really know truly why, etc...
But I do, etc...
God Bless!
And there were a few other reasons of course, but that particular one, very, very few of you, or absolutely none of you know about, etc...But I'll give you just one clue, etc...
Just one, etc...
It was a plea for mercy from His own God concerning His own Son that was to come, or was maybe going to (have to) come, etc...
And when you get that part of it figured out, let me know, etc...
God Bless!
I'm 78
What's funny about people trying to use James' words as a stick to make people perform is the "works" that James points to for Abraham's justification. Abraham's works were that he was willing to give up Isaac because he trusted God, as Hebrews tells us his reasoning was God could raise the dead. What justified Abraham is not the building of the pyre, nor binding Isaac's hand and foot and lifting the knife to perform the act but that Abraham had full faith and confidence that he would lose nothing through the deed.
They are not in conflict. One isn't saved by her/his works, but by faith in God through Jesus Christ. What James is saying is that if you have been blessed by God with salvation then you shouldn't just "sit on your hands" and do nothing. Since you have Jesus as your Lord then you're expected to do what He directs, using the gifts and talents He has given you. It does not mean that if you are idle you aren't saved.\
You are mistaken my friend Paul and James taught the same thingOkay so here's a question I've been wondering for a while. In several places in the bible (Romans 4:5) (Titus 6) (Ephesians 2)...etc Paul has fought for the case that we are ultimately saved by our faith and not by our works. Yet in James 2 James seems to be stating the opposite while quoting Paul. Now I've heard this explained several different ways. One way was that James was talking about our justification by men is by works and that our justification from God is by faith. Another explanation that I've heard is that James was saying that a true faith would have works and those who have faith but don't have works aren't saved. But this explanation was refuted by Jesus himself when he said that not a single believer would be lost in John 6:37-40. And the entire bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus are eternally secure (John 10). The last explanation that I've heard was that James was saying exactly what he seemed to be saying. That we are justified by works and not by faith. To me this seems to be what James was saying so... Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?
To me it's immaterial whether we declare sola fide, as the polemics have largely caused that to mean something that is simply not true. It is simply that we must maintain that there is no earning salvation through our personal merit since we are are beggars. Justification by faith only remains true so long as we remember that faith has content and an object rather than being an empty agreement with a proposition.This is a very good point. To the limited extent I am not sola fide, it is only because I believe that works performed with faith in God are salvific, including the sacrament and almsgiving, but works without faith seem as dead as faith without works. I just am hesitant to embrace a dichotomy absent from the early church.
To me it's immaterial whether we declare sola fide, as the polemics have largely caused that to mean something that is simply not true. It is simply that we must maintain that there is no earning salvation through our personal merit since we are are beggars. Justification by faith only remains true so long as we remember that faith has content and an object rather than being an empty agreement with a proposition.
I worship at a Southern Baptist church but don't really consider myself to belong to any denomination, my theology is ecclectic as I find myself agreeing with positions across the spectrum.Exactly. We are of one accord. What denomination are you if I might ask?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?