Paul vs James who is right?

[bugkiller]

In James 2:18, he said that he would show his faith by his works. In other words, if you were looking at James and wanted to deduce whether he was someone who had saving faith, then the way to do that would be to look at his good works. This is essentially what he was saying in James 2:24 that the way to see that someone is justified is by their works. We see this same line of thought expressed in Romans 2:26, where the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by their obedience to the Mosaic Law. Likewise in Romans 1:8, it spoke about their faith being reported all over the world and how else do you report someone's faith if not by speaking about the actions that they too because of their faith? That's certainly how Hebrews 11 reports people's faith. Faith is always associated with a willingness to obey God's instructions, whereas disobedience to God's instructions is referred to as breaking faith, but it is not the obedience itself that saves us, but rather we are saved by the faith that requires our obedience. It really doesn't make sense for someone to say that they have faith in God to lead them in how to rightly live while refusing to follow His instructions for how to do that.

James is not talking about works of the law.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

A part of the book of James seems to be aimed at a common libertine misrepresentation of Paul at the time. When taken in context, both Paul and James emphasized the importance of a changed lifestyle in Christianity. Good works are a requirement, but not a prerequisite.

I almost agreed.

bugkiller

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Both of them..

 

[Neogaia777]

Okay so here's a question I've been wondering for a while. In several places in the bible (Romans 4:5) (Titus 6) (Ephesians 2)...etc Paul has fought for the case that we are ultimately saved by our faith and not by our works. Yet in James 2 James seems to be stating the opposite while quoting Paul. Now I've heard this explained several different ways. One way was that James was talking about our justification by men is by works and that our justification from God is by faith. Another explanation that I've heard is that James was saying that a true faith would have works and those who have faith but don't have works aren't saved. But this explanation was refuted by Jesus himself when he said that not a single believer would be lost in John 6:37-40. And the entire bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus are eternally secure (John 10). The last explanation that I've heard was that James was saying exactly what he seemed to be saying. That we are justified by works and not by faith. To me this seems to be what James was saying so... Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?

I'll add my take...

That is, true faith is like the seed planted, which, in time should produce good fruits or good works...

Different plants mature at different rates, some produce in different seasons... We are all different and my answer to this is with a question: "Should or can we judge another in this...? Or is it between that indivdual and God alone...?"

Some plants die due to some circumstance before being able to produce fruit... some plants produce and thrive in dryer climates, some in wetter climates and different regions or areas or different types of ground or soil depending on the plant... Different plants, in order to produce fruit require different circumstances, more or less sun, more or less hours of sun or daylight, ect... Different water requirements, ect... Some plants when producing leaves and about to produce fruit, and herbivore animal comes along and eats all it leaves, but it comes back next year and produces fruit... Some plants in a region, something happens in the environment like a flood for example, and none of those produce fruit that year, ect, ect, so on and so forth...

Can or should we judge this...? Or, can only God alone...?

If we claim we can, then I ask, why should we...? Is it our business to judge...?, if we can, that is...?

God Bless!

 

[Rescued One]

God saved us to let our lights shine. Prior to salvation by grace, we were walking in darkness.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Okay so here's a question I've been wondering for a while. In several places in the bible (Romans 4:5) (Titus 6) (Ephesians 2)...etc Paul has fought for the case that we are ultimately saved by our faith and not by our works. Yet in James 2 James seems to be stating the opposite while quoting Paul. Now I've heard this explained several different ways. One way was that James was talking about our justification by men is by works and that our justification from God is by faith. Another explanation that I've heard is that James was saying that a true faith would have works and those who have faith but don't have works aren't saved. But this explanation was refuted by Jesus himself when he said that not a single believer would be lost in John 6:37-40. And the entire bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus are eternally secure (John 10). The last explanation that I've heard was that James was saying exactly what he seemed to be saying. That we are justified by works and not by faith. To me this seems to be what James was saying so... Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?

Paul wrote 13 books/letters of the N.T. James wrote 1. If we believe the 66 writings of Scripture are canon and infallible and without error in all they teach, then we acknowledge a tension, but realize our interpretation must reconcile the two without one contradicting the other, or stated differently they are compatible, and our interpretation should demonstrate this principal. If I were to give more weight to one over the other, it would have to be Paul, because in his writings there is by far more context and proof texts which speak to this tension between the two. If I err, I would err on the side of Paul before James. However I do not think it is necessary, the paradox is solvable, and I think James actually helps in other ways.

 

[Rescued One]

John 14
21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Love God. Love your neighbor.

1 John 4
19We love him, because he first loved us. 20If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 21And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

 

[thecolorsblend]

2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord's words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"57 - reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.

That is the summation of a longer series of thoughts. But, simply, there's not a co-dependent association between faith and works. Rather, the relationship is a causal one. God is the originator of both the grace where we have faith and the grace whereby works are done. We have neither works nor faith without His grace. Thus, I think it's reasonable to be cautious of claims of having only one of those since the two share a common source. How can a Christian have one without the other since both come from God?

This, I think, harmonizes with Ephesians 2, which says that our salvation is a gift of God rather than a causal result from works of our own and also aligns with St. James 2, which says that we are justified by works rather than faith alone.

 

[GnewsBob]

In figuring out these types of possible discrepancies, I find it helpful to go to the source.

Appears both faith and action is needed.

In Mark 12.28, Jesus says loving God with all one's heart, soul, mind and strength is most important with loving your fellow-man as yourself a close second. Later clarified as obeying these two commandments, rather than just ritualistic signs of faith, is what can put you nearer the Kingdom of God.

Seems to be supported again in Matthew 9.13, where Jesus says, "Go and find out what this scripture means, 'I do not want animal sacrifices, but kindness.' I have not come to call the respectable people but the outcasts."

Faith is good, works are good. Both together appear best.

 

[Devin P]

I do not believe James is saying prove you are a Christian. That would only mean we earned a badge like the boy scouts. James is talking about faith and not salvation. People who do not go to church or name the name of Jesus do good and even great works (deeds). So exactly what is the difference of those good deeds? What exactly do they prove? Not much IMHO.

bugkiller

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Well, I'd agree. I don't say James is saying that either.

But in this verse for example, was Abraham proving to men his faith? No. He had faith already, or he wouldn't of offered his son, but this faith resulted in and was perfected in an action. James is simply saying that all throughout scriptures, we see that God's word tells us that we are blessed with faith first, but that this faith results in and is perfected by, actions.

Those actions, are the obedience to God. Because it's one thing to have faith and believe, and even say you believe, but it's another to prove your belief, in altering the way you live your life to show that you believe.

We do what God says, and obey God, not for salvation, because we're already saved. We now that are saved, desire obedience to God and His word because we're saved. Therefore our works, are the works of God as fruits of salvation, not the roots of it. The fruit of our salvation, is that we have a desire to and actively do obey God's laws, statutes and decrees.

I've been in and have been keeping torah (the law) for almost a year now, and honestly it's been the most freeing, amazingly character building year I've ever had. I've learned SO much about God's word, the things Jesus was represented by in the old testament, I've made so much family from fellowship, grew in love for the Father, and have been blessed to watch Him blossom my faith and the faith of those around me. It's honestly the best year of my life, and I'm saddened only by the fact that I didn't come to understanding how important keeping torah was years ago. But, I understand that God has a timing for everything. He knows me more than I know me, so if last year when I came to Torah was best for me, so be it.

Once I realized that the "church" was Israel, it blew my mind, and opened up so much of the scriptures that things I never understood open wide up and make much more sense.

 

[discipler7]

Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?

.
Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles.(ACTS.9:15)
Peter was the apostle to the Jews, especially in Jerusalem.(ACTS.2)
James was the first bishop of Jerusalem.(ACTS.15:24-29) Somehow, James was able to usurp this leadership post from Peter by using his position as a "biological brother" of Jesus Christ.

James was also the leader of the Judaizers = a group of early Jewish Christians, based in Jerusalem, who had demanded that Paul's new Gentile Christian converts be required to also keep Moses Law, like themselves and the Jews, eg be required to be circumcised and follow kosher food laws. Paul was very much against James and the Judaizers. Hence, Paul's arguments at GALATIANS.2:9-17 = justified for salvation solely by faith in Jesus Christ, and not by the works of the Law. Hence, the letter of JAMES is filled with teachings about being "justified by the Law or works".

Nevertheless, lawfulness is the fruit of the Holy Spirit or traits of born-again believers and true prophets/pastors.(MATTHEW.7:15-23)

It is an oxy-moron for a true believer to be an unrepentant sinner/evildoer/law-breaker. Unrepentant sinners/evildoers/law-breakers are likely also false believers and will be cursed/punished by God or His agents for their sins/evil-deeds = afflicted with a sad, unpeaceful, calamitous and short life on earth and will likely not be saved from hell when they leave this earth or die.(1COR.5:1-5 & 11:30, 1JOHN.5:16-19, HEBREWS.10:26-31)

 

[mark kennedy]

Okay so here's a question I've been wondering for a while. In several places in the bible (Romans 4:5) (Titus 6) (Ephesians 2)...etc Paul has fought for the case that we are ultimately saved by our faith and not by our works. Yet in James 2 James seems to be stating the opposite while quoting Paul. Now I've heard this explained several different ways. One way was that James was talking about our justification by men is by works and that our justification from God is by faith. Another explanation that I've heard is that James was saying that a true faith would have works and those who have faith but don't have works aren't saved. But this explanation was refuted by Jesus himself when he said that not a single believer would be lost in John 6:37-40. And the entire bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus are eternally secure (John 10). The last explanation that I've heard was that James was saying exactly what he seemed to be saying. That we are justified by works and not by faith. To me this seems to be what James was saying so... Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?

This one puzzled me for years, only to find out James and Paul were actually teaching the same thing. You have to take this issue in context. James is dealing with rich Christians who were mistreating poor Christians, Paul deals with the same thing in 1 Corinthians 11. Paul says many of you are sick and some of you sleep, James says basically, is this even saving faith. You have to ask yourself a key question, can you be saved without bearing fruit? You are forgiven, you must forgive. You have been shown mercy, you must show mercy. God takes pity on us a wretched sinners, rich poor or otherwise. That grace must propel us as we express the grace and love of God as it bears fruit in the life of believers. It must be understood that this would have been a radical concept, but then again, the gospel always is.

I found it almost comical when I finally realized this. There's no conflict here, if you are mindful of the context this works itself out with minimal effort.

 

[fhansen]

Okay so here's a question I've been wondering for a while. In several places in the bible (Romans 4:5) (Titus 6) (Ephesians 2)...etc Paul has fought for the case that we are ultimately saved by our faith and not by our works. Yet in James 2 James seems to be stating the opposite while quoting Paul. Now I've heard this explained several different ways. One way was that James was talking about our justification by men is by works and that our justification from God is by faith. Another explanation that I've heard is that James was saying that a true faith would have works and those who have faith but don't have works aren't saved. But this explanation was refuted by Jesus himself when he said that not a single believer would be lost in John 6:37-40. And the entire bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus are eternally secure (John 10). The last explanation that I've heard was that James was saying exactly what he seemed to be saying. That we are justified by works and not by faith. To me this seems to be what James was saying so... Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?

The common denominator between the two is love, the virtue given to man by which God makes man just, or justifies us. Paul knew that love is the heart of our faith as evidenced in 1 Cor 13, and that love fulfills the Law. James also knew that love defines man's justice, and that works are expressions of that love. The same can be said for the works performed "for the least of these" in Matt 25:31-46, works that we'll be judged by.

In the end we'll be judged on our love IOW, and this is why the Greatest Commandments are what they are BTW. This is what faith is meant to lead to as it opens the doorway to communion with God, apart from whom we can do nothing but with whom justification, love, is realized. "The only thing that counts is faith working through love". Gal 5:6

 

[mark kennedy]

The common denominator between the two is love, the virtue given to man by which God justifies us. Paul knew that love is the heart of our faith as evidenced in 1 Cor 13, and that love fulfills the Law. James also knew that love defines man's justice, and that works are expressions of that love. The same can be said for the works performed "for the least of these" in Matt 25:31-46, works that we'll be judged by.

In the end we'll be judged on our love IOW, and this is why the Greatest Commandments are what they are BTW. This is what faith is meant to lead to as it opens the doorway to establishing communion with God, apart from whom we can do nothing but with whom justification, love, is realized. "The only thing that counts is faith working through love". Gal 5:6

Exactly!

 

[lastofall]

[for me anyway] many fail to understand "works" compared to "good works" v10 which by the way must be included with v8 & 9 of Ephesians 2. The works of none effect are ceremonies, ritual, and formalism: contrariwise good works is our sincere effort to do the things which Christ says; and for those that think nothing is required of them by the Lord Jesus Christ do not know Him until now.
As for in James "works" the Spirit of Truth speaking through James is referring to "faithfulness": and the way we understand this matter is by example of marriage which shows us the difference between believing and faith: we believe in marriage, but are we faithful to the marriage? Even so as in James if a man say he has faith and has not faithfulness: can merely saying he has faith save him? Faith without faithfulness is dead, being alone. Then he goes on that someone may say "I have faith and you have faithfulness":I will answer, "show me your faith without faithfulness; and I will show you my faith by my faithfulness". A man is justified by faithfulness, and not by faith only: and by being faithful to the Lord is what makes faith perfect.
By the way seeing that faith comes only by hearing the Word of God, and hearing is not mere listening, rather it is submitting to and relying upon God's Word: therefore what shall we think of the Lord Jesus Christ whom we call Lord, and tells us to do something, and we do not the things which He says: what shall it be? if He is truly our Lord, then we will obey Him; for He Himself tells us plainly that the person that loves Him will submit to and rely upon His Word; but the person that loves Him not does not submit to nor rely upon His Word.
The very same Holy Spirit of Truth speaking through Paul is the very same Spirit of Truth speaking through James, lest we were to think otherwise.

 

[Buzz_B]

[for me anyway] many fail to understand "works" compared to "good works" v10 which by the way must be included with v8 & 9 of Ephesians 2. The works of none effect are ceremonies, ritual, and formalism: contrariwise good works is our sincere effort to do the things which Christ says; and for those that think nothing is required of them by the Lord Jesus Christ do not know Him until now.
As for in James "works" the Spirit of Truth speaking through James is referring to "faithfulness": and the way we understand this matter is by example of marriage which shows us the difference between believing and faith: we believe in marriage, but are we faithful to the marriage? Even so as in James if a man say he has faith and has not faithfulness: can merely saying he has faith save him? Faith without faithfulness is dead, being alone. Then he goes on that someone may say "I have faith and you have faithfulness":I will answer, "show me your faith without faithfulness; and I will show you my faith by my faithfulness". A man is justified by faithfulness, and not by faith only: and by being faithful to the Lord is what makes faith perfect.
By the way seeing that faith comes only by hearing the Word of God, and hearing is not mere listening, rather it is submitting to and relying upon God's Word: therefore what shall we think of the Lord Jesus Christ whom we call Lord, and tells us to do something, and we do not the things which He says: what shall it be? if He is truly our Lord, then we will obey Him; for He Himself tells us plainly that the person that loves Him will submit to and rely upon His Word; but the person that loves Him not does not submit to nor rely upon His Word.
The very same Holy Spirit of Truth speaking through Paul is the very same Spirit of Truth speaking through James, lest we were to think otherwise.

Wow, thank you for sharing that perspective.

I never thought it about it being so simple before as that some works really equate to unfaithfulness while some works equate to faithfulness.

That is a very powerful way to think about it. It has the power to turn the light on to brightly expose the truth.

I was seeing it correctly, but just not quite so clearly, and thus my explanations unnecessarily more complicated than need be.

But now that you have said that, I can see clearly that this is what Paul meant when he said: "... whatsoever is not of faith is sin." Romans 14:23

 

[Quasiblogo]

IMO, substitute the word "faith" with the word "trust" and there is no contradiction. Trust is a noun that exists because of initial and on-going trusting.

 

[1213]

Okay so here's a question I've been wondering for a while....

But to him who doesn't work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.
Romans 4:5

Interesting question is, what does it really mean to believe in Jesus? That you believe what he said? Or that he existed?


Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead in itself. Yes, a man will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one. You do well. The demons also believe, and shudder. But do you want to know, vain man, that faith apart from works is dead?
James 2:17

In this, the interesting thing is the difference between faith (loyalty) and believing something. Righteous person is faithful (loyal) to God and it can be seen in actions. Even in the Romans 4:5, if person believes what Jesus said, it can be seen as faithfulness that is seen in action (believing).

All those who the Father gives me will come to me. Him who comes to me I will in no way throw out. This is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day. This is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day. This is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:37-40

Yes, those who are given, will not be lost, but maybe not all who call themselves “Christian” are really disciples of Jesus and believe Jesus.

Disciples of Jesus can be recognized by this:

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

And if person is truly righteous, it can be seen by this:

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

 

[Grip Docility]

Okay so here's a question I've been wondering for a while. In several places in the bible (Romans 4:5) (Titus 6) (Ephesians 2)...etc Paul has fought for the case that we are ultimately saved by our faith and not by our works. Yet in James 2 James seems to be stating the opposite while quoting Paul. Now I've heard this explained several different ways. One way was that James was talking about our justification by men is by works and that our justification from God is by faith. Another explanation that I've heard is that James was saying that a true faith would have works and those who have faith but don't have works aren't saved. But this explanation was refuted by Jesus himself when he said that not a single believer would be lost in John 6:37-40. And the entire bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus are eternally secure (John 10). The last explanation that I've heard was that James was saying exactly what he seemed to be saying. That we are justified by works and not by faith. To me this seems to be what James was saying so... Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?

Paul and James agree. Pure Religion undefiled is LOVE.

Without Love... faith and works are worthless.

 

[tdidymas]

Okay so here's a question I've been wondering for a while. In several places in the bible (Romans 4:5) (Titus 6) (Ephesians 2)...etc Paul has fought for the case that we are ultimately saved by our faith and not by our works. Yet in James 2 James seems to be stating the opposite while quoting Paul. Now I've heard this explained several different ways. One way was that James was talking about our justification by men is by works and that our justification from God is by faith. Another explanation that I've heard is that James was saying that a true faith would have works and those who have faith but don't have works aren't saved. But this explanation was refuted by Jesus himself when he said that not a single believer would be lost in John 6:37-40. And the entire bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus are eternally secure (John 10). The last explanation that I've heard was that James was saying exactly what he seemed to be saying. That we are justified by works and not by faith. To me this seems to be what James was saying so... Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?

I'm in agreement with most explanations in this thread, but one thing I see lacking is a description of faith (trust in Christ). Both Paul and James are describing the same faith, and directing their conversation at different audiences. This faith is a mind which trusts Christ in this way: directed to Christ in heaven, and permeating the whole life of the person. Anything less than this is not a Biblical faith, as would both apostles testify. Finally, this faith looks at God's law, sees where we fall short, and believes that God will heal our hearts to do His will while we walk with Him.
TD